Lionel zw-c with 180 bricks

Mine works well for what I do with it.  The plastic gears, even with the metal brackets, are somewhat flimsy and seem to skip if you aren't careful with the handle.  The Motherboards also have an issue that sometimes glitches (randomly kills track power) when running under Legacy control.  An email with Lionel's customer service manager not too long ago mentioned that they're working on a replacement, but I'm not holding my breath.  Aside from that, I enjoy it and haven't yet felt the need to spend the money on a ZW-L, although I'd love to have one because they look cool.

I have one I have been using for over 15 years without any issues.  I purchased the add on digital meters when they were offered which has readouts for all four channels.  The meters are large and allow me to read the voltage from across the room.  I like it much better than the ZW-L due to the small meters on the L and that without touching the B or C knob, there is no reading for those inner handles.  I seldom use the handles because using the CAB 1 or CAB 2, I can control the output voltages for each channel remotely.

Congratulations on your find!  The two bricks alone are worth more than you paid.

Happy railroading,

Don

There is a long standing issue with both the earlier model and latter model . The later model in fact came with a metal plate to hold the Potentiometer bracket which happens to be plastic. The  earlier model this  plate need to be upgraded.

The issue is that the potentiometer bracket cracks. There are no parts available. Once, I was going to look into making this bracket in alloy. But, lost my spare

I also believe the unit with the 180w transformers had some issue with phasing and circuit breakers popping to fast. Both are fixable..

If you get it cheap -- the newer unit. But, be aware...no parts.

I WOULD SAVE FOR THE ZWL.

I recommend watching the Mike Regan presentation on Youtube, it is very informative. I have two of these, my first had the skipping gears as Jake mentioned above, that one is going to power accessories. The second is a later production that I installed the metal brackets.  The only problem I had, it was randomly cutting track power after I had once used the HALT button. I found help here on the forum. Lionel supplied replacement chips for both ZW-Cs at no charge.  Jake, I don't know if that is the problem you are having, mine was very frequent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5A-KFr5SS4

https://ogrforum.com/...56#42539260112559656

thanks guys for the replys. as Don said the price alone was worth it for the two bricks. I am going to be using it in command mode anyway. so I just wanted this mostly for the look of having a large zw on my pannel. then watched mike Reagan's video on this zw and found out about the built in powermaster capability and maybe I will try using that feature when I get it hooked up. 

santafe 158, in mikes video he mentions a replacement board that was available from lionel for some production run versions as a replacement to the factory board. is the board you are referring too that board or a newer replacement board lionel my be considering making?

btw the video of mikes I am referring to is on the lionel customer service youtube channel. he made this along with several others while he was still there back in the day. it's an old video,but very informative on the zw-c and how it works. I gathered a lot of info about this version of the zw just by watching it. 

bill s. thanks for the links. the youtube link is the one I was refering too. the one with marty's chip repacement is what mike was talking about. thanks for that link I had never seen that one. if it turns out mine needs of of these I will look at the lionel web sight to see if they have these in stock. 

a quick check of the lionel websight shows that these chips are unavailable. if It turns out I do need one what am I to do? Also when this issue was discovered did lionel change to the new chips in later production runs. how would I tell looking at the chip itself. would it be labeled like the one marty shows in his link? I may take the case of and see tonight what lable is on my chip.

Ok, the legacy shutdown issue.  Good luck! Eprom not available

  I've  got one since it came out. It works fine. The biggest problem I have is that it takes forever to reset itself after you have a short.  Not good on a modular layout with angry kids waiting for the train to go.

A call or email to Lionel might be in order if needed. I don't know if they changed chips through the run. I have not had the top off of mine since the problem. 

guys, I was planning on just powering up the zw-c first essentially telling it to go into convetional mode. we're there any issuse with it in convetional mode that you have experienced? according to mikes video the chip issue only comes into play when it comes up in command mode. am I right on this also?

I had recently been troubleshooting a ZW-C I have been using on my layout.  I just use it to power accessories but it would randomly shut down.  I use a ZW-L for my legacy track control.
I found it was the ZW-C chip issue.  If my hand got near the ZW-C it would give the shutdown command.
I fixed it by opening it up and unplugging the TMCC antenna.  
That of course will not work if you are using Legacy and also want to use the ZW-C in command mode.  But if are not using Legacy on your layout or you just want to use ZW-C to power accessories you probably will be Ok.
I don't think Lionel has chips available anymore.  I contacted them twice about it and they did not even reply.
Here was my original post Marty replied to:

https://ogrforum.com/...trange-zw-c-behavior

Is the updated chip a 691ZWPCS01?

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

just picked up a used like new in the box zw-c with the 180 lionel bricks at my local hobby shop. I could not pass up the $175 price. this came from a collectors estate who never used it. looks like it is  from the production run where the potentiometer bracket is cast metal instead of plastic after taking the top cover off to inspect this part. I havent got it hooked up yet. tommorow its going to repace my two 135 powerhouses on my layout. 

To those who have this version  of the zw do you like it? has it worked well for you?

I may have a source for a OEM Lionel chip. I tried emailing you. But, your email address as ejected.I will know most likely by Tuesday. I actually might clear him out...after you get yours.

I'd run it in Legacy before even worrying about the chip.  Mine has no issues, and I love it.  Since it only came with two bricks, and you have two more 135W bricks, I'd just plug those bricks into the ZW as well.  It accepts 4, and it'll give you more power.  I have 4 180W bricks and the digital meter on mine.  Sure the meters aren't all that accurate, but they still give me a decent idea of what's going on at the track.  Congrats on your find.

Sean sorry about my email. guess it needs updated. just shot you an email about getting a chip. thanks.

Roger

I started with 2 of them. I now only use 1 with 4 bricks dedicated to accessories only.

I have had no issues and have had great service out of them.

AND you did good on that price. If I had walked in that hobby shop and seen it,

it would have come home with me. lol

Larry

yes thanks Larry I could not pass it up. when the owner said 200 but would let me have it for 175 I had to get it. the two bricks alone was worth it. plus unlike ebay  I did not have any shipping fees either. I would like a zwl, but at 800 or better this will be just fine for my needs now. plus working out the chip issue if needed this zw if using 4 180 bricks is more watts than the new zwl. 

my hobby shop is always buying collections and some Items in some of the personal collections they buy never get used or opened. this zwc was never used. 

I got some 16 guage lamp cord and some spade lugs and red shrink tube along with some banana jacks I had to make some cables from the zw-c to my tiu. going to finnish another set of wires and hooking it up later today. then try it out. 

fyi guys, tryed this out tonight. when in legacy mode it shuts off as mike stated. it does have the bad chip. when it comes up in convetional mode all is well. I run all command anyway so I just rearaged my legacy power supply to a different power strip. now I can turn on my zw-c first then my legacy base. turn up the zw-c handles to full track 18 volts and I am good to go. 

I wanted to operate it this way anyway. this way I can use the zw-c handles to cut track power when switching engines on and off the track or powering down quickly when there is a derail or short. 

the built in powermasters is a plus, but I really don't need them although I will get the chip if Sean can get me one and have it working as it should. the 180 powerhouses breakers are better than the breakers on my 135 powerhouses. I will keep my 135 for accsesorys or for my show layout. I am going to get two more 180's to give me the 720 watts total. this will be enough for my layout now and later on when I expand it.

I checked out the zw volt/amp meter and read up here on it. it is almost as much as what I paid for the zw-c. it seems it would be just cool to look at but not very practical given the design of the meter. I think I may pass on that unless I find one really cheap that is in working order. 

btw sean it you are following this thread and get my email if you can get two eprom chips or at least one let me know I would like to get at least one if not two. I maybe able to find another zw-c like this from my hobby shop someday. the extra chip will come in handy. thanks. 

What email addy did you use. I should know by Tuesday late. It will be hit or miss

I have a few ZW-C's I fixed. But, The bracket holding the pots will eventually break at the screw hole. There is no replacement available. At one point I was going to have that part redesigned and fabricated. But, the advent of the ZW-L changed my mind.

Frankly, I won’t buy another ZW-C/  The zw-l is a Engineering marvel next to the zwc.

thanks Shawn, sorry I sent the email to sandjam by mistake. I sent you an email to the one in your profile just now. my email is glasgoreg@mail.com if and when you get them. if you can spare two of them I would like to have two. if not one is ok. I can paypal you the funds. my zip is 65201 so you can figure shipping cost. thanks roger.

sinclair posted:

I'd run it in Legacy before even worrying about the chip.  Mine has no issues, and I love it.  Since it only came with two bricks, and you have two more 135W bricks, I'd just plug those bricks into the ZW as well.  It accepts 4, and it'll give you more power.  I have 4 180W bricks and the digital meter on mine.  Sure the meters aren't all that accurate, but they still give me a decent idea of what's going on at the track.  Congrats on your find.

If you an extra one I could use one too.  Let me know.

Thanks

Sean

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

thanks Shawn, sorry I sent the email to sandjam by mistake. I sent you an email to the one in your profile just now. my email is glasgoreg@mail.com if and when you get them. if you can spare two of them I would like to have two. if not one is ok. I can paypal you the funds. my zip is 65201 so you can figure shipping cost. thanks roger.

I do not have possession of them. I know someone that may have some. I will know later Tuesday.

shawn posted:

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

thanks Shawn, sorry I sent the email to sandjam by mistake. I sent you an email to the one in your profile just now. my email is glasgoreg@mail.com if and when you get them. if you can spare two of them I would like to have two. if not one is ok. I can paypal you the funds. my zip is 65201 so you can figure shipping cost. thanks roger.

I do not have possession of them. I know someone that may have some. I will know later Tuesday.

I think these can be duplicated if we can get one chip as a source image. Low cost EPROM reader/writer units are available on Amazon, and blank chips are readily available from sources like Mouser. This unit could work: https://www.amazon.com/Laser-m...rammer+reader+writer I don't have the IC number right now. I was looking for it but could not find it. I looked at this once before but couldn't get the original Lionel chip. The software for the EPROM programmers can copy other chips.

George

Actually, it's VERY likely that Lionel would have burned the security link in the chip to prevent reading out the firmware.  That's a standard feature of virtually any programmable uP, and it's pretty standard to read lock the chips.  I've checked other chips on Lionel stuff, and all were read locked.

George, the programmer you linked won't work even if you had the contents of the ZW-C chip, it's a 40 pin DIP chip in .6" centers.

That's why I was looking for the chip model number. I could take my unit apart, but it's not that important to me. There is a 40 pin programmer unit on Amazon for $56. If you're right and it's locked, it will be more trouble. Maybe it can be hacked. As I recall it's an older 16 bit microcontroller.

George

guys, just an fyi. if Sean's source falls through I emailed mike Reagan to see if he could help. I got a reply back tonight. he does not have a source,but told me as he understood it lionel had acquired the programmer able to program these older chips. I will call lionel tommorow or tues directly And see what they say. if they can do this it would be great especially for those who want one for there zwc that has not been updated yet. I will update everyone on what I find out from lionel c.s. right here for those who wish to know. 

shawn posted:

I have a few ZW-C's I fixed. But, The bracket holding the pots will eventually break at the screw hole. There is no replacement available. At one point I was going to have that part redesigned and fabricated. But, the advent of the ZW-L changed my mind.

Frankly, I won’t buy another ZW-C/  The zw-l is a Engineering marvel next to the zwc.

 

 

The ZW was an engineering marvel compared to the ZW-C. Do sad that such basic stuff was done so poorly. The concept was great and the exception terrible.

Gerry

gmorlitz posted: 

The ZW was an engineering marvel compared to the ZW-C. Do sad that such basic stuff was done so poorly. The concept was great and the exception terrible.

Gerry

 

I tend to agree.  The concept was a good one but poor quality parts and flimsy parts made it a product that did not meet expectations.  On the ZW-L, which I love, the only thing I'd do to improve it would be to add a dip switch or software switch to allow the ZW-L to operated the same as the ZW-C for the B and C channels.

I have the metal brackets that Lionel offered to improve the ZW-C.  I can't figure out where they go.  Can someone give me some info where exactly these brackets go?  I would like to install them. Thanks, BigRail

underneath the piece that is holding the potentiometers. That plastic piece might crack at the screw holes when you go to replace the lower bracket. Then you are screwed. As, that part is not available.

MartyE posted:

the only thing I'd do to improve it would be to add a dip switch or software switch to allow the ZW-L to operated the same as the ZW-C for the B and C channels.

That is the only thing that has been holding me back from getting the ZW-L. It just makes the reboot of the 18 vac when necessary more involved.

Here is a thread with some pictures of the metal brackets...

ZW Thread

cjack posted:

MartyE posted:

the only thing I'd do to improve it would be to add a dip switch or software switch to allow the ZW-L to operated the same as the ZW-C for the B and C channels.

That is the only thing that has been holding me back from getting the ZW-L. It just makes the reboot of the 18 vac when necessary more involved.

Personally I always wanted it to operate as the ZW-L does.  Requiring the B and C to be dialed up.  I always wanted to operate trains from those outputs and didn't want them to come on where set.  I did understand those that did for accessories and such. 

I asked before the ZW-L was released if an option could be added to make it change operation to do either scenario but the product was too far along.  It would have been a nice option.

Thanks for the info.  I think I see where this goes.  Not sure if it is worth the hassle.  Mine works fine...its just that the handles/gears suck.  The right side handle routinely jumps out of the gear.  You have to slide the handle very slowly and carefully otherwise it goes out of whack.  Easy to realign but crappy that it happens at all.  BigRail

BigRail posted:

Thanks for the info.  I think I see where this goes.  Not sure if it is worth the hassle.  Mine works fine...its just that the handles/gears suck.  The right side handle routinely jumps out of the gear.  You have to slide the handle very slowly and carefully otherwise it goes out of whack.  Easy to realign but crappy that it happens at all.  BigRail

That's probably because you don't have the metal brackets. My first one did that. The two I have now that have the metal brackets do not slip.

George

after getting this and searching for more info on this model. most are correct on the plastic parts. mine thank god has the metal brackets and the gears work just fine. the plastic holding the pots is good also,but I suspect if I used it conventionally and moved the handles a lot the plastic pot bracket two would break at the screw holes. I don't plan on being that ruff on it so I hope I never have that issue. other than that I love this thing. is it a zw-l heck no,but for almost a third of the price wich is what I paid for it. it has 720 watts and works just fine for what I need it for. all the built in functions will work as it should if I can track down that darn eprom chip.if not I am ok with it as is.

Roger ,

Dean ( Service Manager for Lionel ) sez they are not available, & won't be!  There is no way to reproduce them either!  I looked for months, without ANY Luck!!!

Bought a ZWL, and am completely satisfied! Sold the ZWC to a friend who runs only TMCC & Conventional! He is very happy with it!

Fredstrains

Yes, you don't really need the chip unless you have Legacy. Even then, you can turn the command control programming off in the ZW-C, and I believe it will work fine. I heard that not all of the units had the problem.

George