Mac Cars Shop?

Yep, Mac Shops, Address: PO Box 1232, Vero Beach, FL 32961 fairly nice cars for the time, early mid 1980's.

Thanks Dan! Much appreciated! What's the website address? nw2124

None and I don't think he has done anything in 15 years or so.

I had a string of his passenger cars I think they were 80' Amfleets and 3 RDC's which I believe were Mac Shops.

Kinda basic, similar to Benson in level of workmanship. Only RDC available as far as I knew back in the 80's. Nice guy to speak with. Is he still with us?

quote:

Originally posted by railroad-guy:
None and I don't think he has done anything in 15 years or so.

Basically long gone....

The most valid criticism I've heard against MAC Shops's quite excellent product is that they were too heavy due to the total number of white metal castings on top of the extrusion weight. I agree but that is sooo neglible and sorry Bob, K-Line's Budd cars are SO not comparable from a scale perspective. If you have talent for scratch building underbody parts, or scrounging suitable substitutes on "the bay" then there's no comparison. The weight of those excellent cast car ends is a problem but only if you have real grades, if you do, consider scratching substitutes. I think, besides it's size, the fact you have to work at it is what makes O scale so great, especially prototype modeling.

quote:

Mac Shops cars are still available at some shows.

There's the key. A lot of this stuff that some folks have been bemoaning the demise of is actually "out there", and will be probably for a long time, and can be found with a little effort. Of course, putting in a little effort might be the real challenge,

My apologies Bob, you're point re comparison between K-line and MAC extrusion is true, I read it and immediately thought about everything else about the K-Lines including the points you brought up and thought- no way, my bad. But extrusion wise, yeah they're pretty good. It's just everything else about them that drives me crazy, basically if I could score a K-Line for less than a MAC kit I would likely buy it, but 50-50 it's a no brainer. My opinion, the three different extrusion styles, all the car types offered, MAC blows K-Line away and I'm always looking for them. Again I actually like building passenger cars, kit or salvage, it's the only way I know to model specific trains/consists unless the prototype is the streamliner factory's brochure.

BTW Merry Christmas! to you and everyone else here.

I will try and photo some MAC shops kits and Midland for comparison. Give me a few days.

Not sure if they are Macs but I have two 21 inch aluminum extrusions--one baggage and another combo. Lionel passenger car ends fit on them perfectly. One is an unbuilt kit and the other has trucks and interior and ends. You can have them both for $100 plus actual shipping. I shined them up with Neverdull and they looked amazing. mozgawa@aol.com

One difference that may show up is that Midland I believe modeled the California Zephyr cars. They had a somewhat different corrugation pattern from
what other Budd cars had. Especailly with the small roof corrugations running down to the window panel. Budd would make use this pattern again on their super-light weight "Pioneer" cars of the 1960s.

Did Midland's kits have slide-in, punched window panels? I saw such in a pamphlet once. They fitted between the roof extrusion and the lower side extrusions, making it easier to produce different types of cars with a thinner window section that made the glazing look better.

MacShops used a full-body early 1950s Budd design extrusion with a fairly thick cross-section having the window pattern punched into them. Kasiner's 1940s extrusion for fluted sides followed a late 1940s Pullman/ACF pattern and made the same way. Kasiner also offered smooth sided cars. The full length Kasiner kits also followed specific, prototype cars. Also, the plastic Lionel streamlined car ends fit the old Kasiner extrusions perfectly.

Both Pullman and ACF likely purchased their stainless steel siding strips from the same manufacturer. These strips were rolled in a way that they would interlock with each other as they were mounted to clips on the car side, much like automotive trim was attached in the 1940s and 50s.

That siding and the way it was attached to steel carbodies was a disaster in corrosion over time, as water got trapped under the fluted siding. An all-stainless steel car body would not suffer such problems. Budd held the patent for sucessfully shot-welding stainless steel. Pullman and ACF were not about to pay Budd's royalties for using it.

Half-round styrene strips may not accurately capture the true look of streamlined car fluted siding. The half-round is convex in shape on the car side. Prototype streamlined fluting is usually concave and often patterned in two different widths.

Ed Bommer

Ed,

The Midland kits had a slide-in window panel. The extruded roof and body sections had L-shaped ledges to hold the window panels. Too bad the dies were destroyed.

ChipR

Mac had three types - standard Budd with the letterboard above the windows, smooth sided Budd where the lower panel only had about four corrugations, and the Zephyr style with roof corrugations to the tops of the windows.

Kasiner had two types - corrugated Pullman like NYC and some ATSF, and smooth side.

Midland may not have been the Alexander dies, but the idea was the same. Seemed to me you could always see the interface between window strip and the extrusions.

Speer did the Daylight Pullman, and in my opinion his Daylight extrusions are the best. He apparently did a run of smooth extrusions too, because Tom sent my last order with a couple of smooth ones as well.

Benson did the Lionel extrusion, and not the more correct baggage car extrusion, either. He did the one with the letter board below the windows. No prototype, as near as I can tell.

If you do not have an end mill, you are way better off buying K-Line. If anybody has ever done windows by hand, please tell us how it went?

All opinion. All of it.

I've cut windows into blank extrusions, REALLY not fun, point well taken. But I still say some folks want to match up passenger car window arrangements to specific prototypes, or at least get it close, HW or LW's, to get it at least closer to right because they work off of prototype photos, and like it. Outside of specific runs, there's too much diversity in the history of the subject for me to say, ok- K Line's AT&SF or Empire Express or whatever it is, works fine for SAL, or SP or NKP or whatever else. If you really only sweat locomotives then cool, but I like going for specific passenger cars. I wish I could swing building an SAL M-2 with that sweet Vandy' tender Bob D's gunning for (kudos Bob) but I'll settle for hacking out a decent SAL car that matches the photo, you know say a baggage with the clerestory windows and squirrel cage fans, custom decals from those SCL Historical Society guys, or maybe a Kasiner PS Coach with modified windows.

With a 1/8" end mill and some of that green cutting fluid (absolutely essential) I can and do knock out windows exactly as I want them in under an hour per car. I suspect that with a drill and a file about a week will be close.

Once I get the windows absolutely correct and park it next to the local K-Line, I would be hard-pressed to tell you that my windows look better than theirs. My memory for such patterns is not that good.

I do have the Daylight coach window arrangement imprinted pretty good - hard not to, since I have cut maybe seven of them.

Window arrangements are not my big thing in life - but if they are yours, an end mill is an absolute essential. Nobody is going to do it the way you want for less than a grand.

As always, completely opinion. No facts at all.

Say Bob2 could you give us the source of the green cutting fluid?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by mwb:

quote:

Mac Shops cars are still available at some shows.

There's the key. A lot of this stuff that some folks have been bemoaning the demise of is actually "out there", and will be probably for a long time, and can be found with a little effort. Of course, putting in a little effort might be the real challenge,

Awwwwww Martin, that means we would actually have to do something ourselves!

If one has the perseverance, it is possible to find just about anything. If you are into immediate gratification, then you might be disappointed. I find the chase is part of the fun, and you never know what else you will find while looking....and you might meet some NICE people along the way! That is a hidden bonus that doesn't cost anything!

Simon

Ron - try Ace hardware. Relton "A-9 Aluminum Cutting Fluid". Green can. For brass or steel, use Relton "Rapid Tap". Yellow can. If you are drilling, tapping, or cutting on a mill, these two products are pretty much essential. There are other brands that are just as good.

When cutting windows dry, the end mill will melt the aluminum, then the aluminum will solidify around the tool, snapping it and costing you ten bucks. Don't ask . . .

Bob -- I have experience with engine lathes, turret lathes, vertical mills and shapers, but not horizontal mills. If there is a time in the future where you find yourself milling an extrusion on a horizontal mill, would you mind taking a photo of the setup to show the rest of us how it's done?

Thanks,
Doorstop Jim

Bob, just how many car type variations in 21" has K-line made? say versus how many plan types are in a single RPC volume.
Uh-huh, look you obviously don't care about that and that's ok, I do.
Love to see the jig layout for milling carbody extrusions though, I have a sizable number of 22" Amfleet extrusions that are dying to become Metroliners.
(now that would be a fun project)

I bet I have over 20 K-Line cars of various configurations. All I see is windows, and of the five on display shelves within about ten feet of here I see five different variants. I had to study them for a minute to make sure all were different.

Many passenger trains had strings of coaches with the same window pattern. And you are right, I really don't care much, and will allow others to care a great deal without getting upset about it.

But I am pointing out the obvious - there are so many different window arrangements that you would practically have to have each car punched custom. That is exactly what Haynes MacDaniel did, and perhaps that is why he does not do them anymore - no business, and a whole lot of work.

I use a 1/8" end mill, going counter-clockwise around each window, with copious green fluid, a brush so I can see where I am going, and a magnifying glass. It takes practice, and one mistake ruins a blank completely.

So you see, I simply do not care about the windows, yet among all of us I am the only one who has exactly the window patterns he wants, because I cut them.

Is that irony or opinion?

So my question is, how do you hold the extrusion secure in the mill when cutting the windows in a manner that doesn't mess up the finish or the shape of the extrusion?

For comparison the GGD windows are punched not machined. All you have to do is come up with the punching dies.

Richard

Thanks a bunch Bob2.
I'll see if I can get it at my local Ace and give it a try on my milling operations.
I have been using Rigid cutting oil. Works well enough but leaves an oil film on the aluminum extrusion.
I also cut my windows to suit mostly from Kasiner blanks.

Thanks again.
Ron

Benson also used Welz and Williams extrusions to make Amfleet cars.The Welz extrusions were a little undersized.
I have a friend who still has some Williams blank extrusions in 21 " lengths.

I built a wood cradle with thumb screws to hold beams across the top. The mill (a Benchmaster) is sufficiently small that I have to move the extrusion for each window. The thumbscrews are the key to that. Cradle is held to the machine by two "T" nuts in countersunk holes. 1" pine is sufficient for the cradle.

I also slide a floorboard in, so that the sides are horizontal under clamping pressure. That way I mill the doors in, by removing a few thousandths of aluminum prior to cutting the door window.

Aluminum is vastly different from most other metals in cutting. Oily fluid probably only conducts the heat. The "wintergreen" seems to facilitate cutting.

I have long wanted to get my hands on a Mac Shops RDC, as 3rd Rail has not done

RDC-3's.  I thought the K-Line RDC's were shorties, or am I misreading something

above?  I thought I'd have to piece a couple of K-Line's to gether to get a scale length RDC?

I have not seen an OK car in person.  I would say your hierarchy is about right, but thereis a discussion about Midland Reproductions afoot, and from 2011 Eric promised some comparison photos.

 

Ends, floorboards, underbody - all pretty sketchy, except possibly Midland.  I either make my own, or use one piece lost-wax brass ends.

.....assuming Mac Shops  is better than Kasiner

Yes, but Kasiner was smoothed roof PS/ACF not Budd so.....

 

...Kasiner is equal to or better than OK Engines?

No, in fact in terms of available window patterns; Kasiner offered a total 16 plus or minus arrangement.  OK now offers those plus custom patterns in both smooth or fluted, and lists Budd style extrusion now as well.

 

What's the hierarchy based on prototype (ACF vs. P-S vs. Budd)

MAC- Budd

Kasiner- PS/ACF for a very few prototype patterns, 

A-OK- Current catalog lists all three carbody types, and custom windows available though I cannot tell you which of the Budd fluting patterns they offer.

 

I'm assuming american lightweight car co. cars were all smooth-side cars…I saw a 2-year old post on ALCC….I'm assuming they're still out of business due to resin casting problems…

Yes for now,  though there is a recent post here regarding an alternative supplier, Union Station Products for custom laser cut sides that looks fabulous. Lord knows there's enough ICC salvage out on E-Bay to get you the floors , ends and sides.

AmericanStd/ALW produced a huge line of PS plan styrene kits in both smooth and fluted versions.

 

Again a little more focus  would be helpful, as in what do you want to build...

 

Dave, American lightweight did have fluted side cars. I have several santa fe cars that I built up (regal and blue series pullmans, 600? series diners, coach, baggage and an RPO)

David,

I will make a copy of what I think is Haynes' (Mac Shops) last catalog and bring it to Strasburg. The last car body extrusion I purchased from him was in 2011 and he punched the windows for the specific car I wanted.

Bob