Madison Hardware - would you, or did you, shop there? And why?

That is an interesting question, Rob. As legendary as Madison Hardware was, I too have often wondered that very question. I think it's safe to say that demeanor wasn't just limited to Madison Hardware. I know when I was getting back into this in my late 20s, there was a few of the local hobby shops that you felt like you were an "inconvenience" shopping there.  One could sense the old guys behind the counter thinking "What is that punk kid doing here?" There was some good ones too, though.  As someone who works in retail, your customers are your paycheck. By offering a positive shopping experience you build loyalty and repeat business.  If I had visited New York City back when MH was open, I likely would have at least popped by to see it.

Rob

Yes, once.  I bought a no 60 trolley at a train show.  It had a stripped gear.  Knew nothing of the history of the store but was going to grad school in Brooklyn so went over there.  An amazing place, had to be 12 ft high filled with every lionel product imaginable.   Interacted with one of the owners, don't know which one, he walked to one side of the store, flung a rolling ladder typical in stores like this down the row, went up the ladder like a cat being chased by a dog and retrieved the part.  I asked if he was sure this was correct, he snorted, I paid.  Never got back there, wish I had.

When you are the only game in town, creating a positive customer experience isn't necessary. You have the luxury of "firing" customers you believe are an "inconvenience" because demand far exceeds supply. I read Derek's book with great interest, but I wouldn't have shopped there, either. As a kid, I remember my Dad telling stories of his visits to Madison Hardware, but I never was in the store.

@Rob N posted:

Good evening,

I recently read a good article by P. Ambrose in TCA quarterly about his experience shopping at Madison Hardware.  I have also read Derek Thomas's excellent book on the store and its story.

I never did visit the NY store (I was a teenager when it was bought by Richard Kughn).  I must say, in my opinion, I don't think I could have shopped there.  There seems to be a lot of stories of how miserable the brothers could be, especially to new customers (wouldn't sell you anything, or escorted you out, etc.).  In his article, Mr. Ambrose even relates that he was considered a good customer, and yet had to purchase a lot of items he didn't want just to have the privilege to get something he liked once in a while.  Mr. Thomas's book had similar stories I believe.  I couldn't have put up with that, then or now.  Shopping in a hobby store is supposed to be fun, I didn't get that impression reading the stories about Madison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to disparage the store or its late owners.  Just expressing my opinion after reading some fascinating stories.  And I have enjoyed the book and articles very much.  I just wanted to ask the forum members here:  would you have shopped there?  Are there any members here that did shop there, and if so, why?  What was it about the store that kept you coming back?  I would love to hear your experiences.

Thanks!

Rob   

I spent many great days at the store Carl and Lou treated me with respect and taught me many things about my Lionel trains. I met Frank Sinatra at the store and as a kid had no idea who he was and they all got such a kick out of that, yes they could be harsh….most of the time it was because people would come in only around Christmas and then expect them to drop everything to speak to them, people who shopped their all the time were treated differently right wrong. It was a small store with a very small staff that would be mobbed around the holidays.

@ThatGuy posted:

I spent many great days at the store Carl and Lou treated me with respect and taught me many things about my Lionel trains. I met Frank Sinatra at the store and as a kid had no idea who he was and they all got such a kick out of that, yes they could be harsh….most of the time it was because people would come in only around Christmas and then expect them to drop everything to speak to them, people who shopped their all the time were treated differently right wrong. It was a small store with a very small staff that would be mobbed around the holidays.

I had similar expriences  I was 12 when I first went there   Took the train without my parents knowing and had ten dollars in my pocket  Carl laughed when I told him I wanted to buy something  but he sold me a Rock Island box car 6464-75 and talked to me for hours explaining the store.  I took the train there every saturday for about 4 years  Most of the time dropping off or picking up repairs and talking to CArl   Lou couldnt be bothered     One of my uncles was a garbageman and used to give me all the trains he found.  Dropping off a repair was very funny  I would show it to Carl and he would shake his head then call the repair guy from the back  Forget his name   The guy was like a mad scientist  He would come out with his rubber apron and glasses ala Young Frankenstein and would look at whatever I brought and say yup we can fix that

I never had the opportunity to visit Madison Hardware but after everything I have read about it I would have like to have gone there just once.  Just once! ; because if I had been treated like some of the new customers who went there I would have told the brothers to take a very long walk on a very short pier.   Life is far too short to have to absorb that kind of abuse at a hobby shop visit which is supposed to be fun.

I visited Madison Hardware several times because I heard the store was a Lionel legend. I bought a Lionel 8753 GG-1 in tuscan.  My original Lionel 6110 steam engine motor from 1951 wore out and no longer ran. On another visit they had literally a barrel full of 6110 motors and I bought one. On one of my visits, I saw a stack of Lionel boxes that were sitting on the floor with a handwritten sign at the top that just said "Sinatra." I asked and one of the guys about it and he said "Yes, Frank comes here often to buy trains." I thought the guy was kidding and they were for another person named Sinatra. Later on I read about Frank's train room and his huge Lionel layout!

I visited the store many times from the mid 1960s to the time they closed up. Carl took a liking to me for whatever reason I do not know. I would visit several times during the summer just because it was a neat place. Never did buy much. When I arrived, Carl would place a ladder across the back of the desk where he sat, and tell Lou "not to bother Harry & I"  Later in the 70-80s I would take my mom, dad, & wife to visit during the N.Y. Toy Show in February. One year, we were all in the store when a large rat came out of the woodwork, the women screamed and ran out of the store. Lou, Carl, and my father and I laughed our heads off. When I bought the "ESTES" Collector color paint line, I was not satisfied w/ the color matches. I talked to Carl about the paint matches, and he made an offer I could not refuse. I stayed overnight and the next day we went thru some rooms on the 2nd floor and opened sealed brand new trains, which Carl loaned me to re-do the correct Lionel colors. I still have a couple of pieces.  Carl showed me a shipping sheet when Josh donated the surplus Lionel pre-war inventory to Carl.  Carl attempted to pay at least the shipping, and was repermanded by Josh, telling Carl when he gave a gift , he was not to be insulted by trying to pay.  I had nothing but good times w/ these two guys. I miss them.  Harry

I shopped there in 1984 with the release of the operating icing station.

Very small. Not much to see inside but boxes and parts strewn all over the place. The store display window had a better view.

These guys were dealing in very desirable, to us, "sort-of-antique" Lionel collectables and "hard to find" parts.

So I guess they could pick their customers and their prices.

Although I was in NY several times on business, never could find the time to get there.

Technically I have shopped at Madison - during an early 90's LCCA convention in Dearborn/Detroit, after Kughn bought it and moved the contents to Michigan. Still interesting. I've been to NYC a couple of times, but was not much back into the hobby at that time, so I never thought (or knew?) about it then.

Fascinating place and inventory. I remember a big stack of 785 gray  Hudsons in boxes. It was all very organized by that time.

I was in my twenties and was in NYC for business.  Visually the store was an experience.  There were a couple of items I saw that I was interested in buying.  I couldn't get anyone's attention and gave up.  I figured I could go back later, but left town before I had the chance.  I should add that treatment wasn't unique to Madison. 

What happened to all the inventory after Mr. Kughn passed?

Thank you everyone, for your replies.  Love to hear your opinions and those who went there! 

ThatGuy, that is really cool you met Sinatra there.  I had read somewhere he used to stop in, I guess it's true! 

Ben, those are great stories, thanks.  Would love to hear more about the times you stopped in. 

I agree with OKHIKER, I guess I would've tried to stop once and see what happens.  Mr. Henning's account about surplus pre-war trains is interesting because I had always heard the place had anything and everything Lionel, including sealed boxes of desirable trains.  Does anyone recall ever seeing or even buying new old trains there?  If one had the money, could you have walked in there and bought, say, a sealed box of postwar F3s years after they were released? 

Derek Thomas did a great interview with R. Kughn some years back and asked him about the move.  It was odd to hear that he did not recall finding any great sealed and valuable train treasures, but he also related that he was not directly involved in the day to day move, so understandable that he may not have heard or seen everything.  Would love to talk to the guys who did the inventory and moving, however!

Stories about the brothers are great.  I didn't consider that, like any business, they probably had some difficult and unreasonable customers and didn't want to deal with them.  My feeling after reading some of the stories is that they took that path a little too far and made assumptions and ended up turning away some good and friendly customers.  Kudos to those who were able to get along with them and do business!

Again, thanks for the stories and opinions.  Keep them coming!

Rob 

I visited the store three or four times in the late 70’s. Since I lived in NJ it wasn’t difficult to get into the city. All my visits, in the summer time, were to buy parts and my experiences were pleasant though you did wait quite a while for service. I’ll never forget my amazement, on the first visit, on how crowded the walls and floor were with train boxes. You had to zig zag to get to the back of the store.                                         My soon to be wife came with me on my last visit, she was in total awe of the place. My wife’s favorite store was Trainland, we visited there a few times too, she bought quite a few pieces for me over the years there, doing business over the phone.

I used to pass on my way home from work, one day i left early just to stop in and was hooked, i purchased my first train there along with asmall transformer and enough  track to go around the Christmas tree, great memory for me...

@romiller49 posted:

What happened to all the inventory after Mr. Kughn passed?

That inventory was long gone before RK passed. The whole shebang was moved to Detroit, and then gradually sold off. You had to schedule an appointment to visit the Detroit “store”. As I recall, nothing was marked with a price. A total was rung up at the end. Bringing donuts and coffee in the morning of your scheduled visit was meant to get lower prices for your finds in the afternoon. There’s a VHS tape of the MH move. It was insane the quantity of mint new parts and assemblies they had.

I visited the store in the 1990s. I was looking for some drive rods for a late prewar engine. I had written the numbers down and gave the card to Carl. He went to a drawer and rummaged around for a minute and came back with the rods I needed. No part numbers, nothing labeled, I guess he just knew all the rods by heart.  I spent some time looking at all the boxes stacked to the ceiling, but did not buy any thing else.  I was traveling by air from the west coast, so space was limited. Carl just sat there and watched me, we said very little. I said good by and left.  It was good to see such a famous place.   I also went to Madison Hardware in Detroit. The staff  there did not know the inventory, so it was very hard to see or buy anything.   When Kughn decided to close the business, everything was sold at an auction. One dealer told me that new post war armatures were being sold by the pound. The few years after that auction was the only time in my life that I could buy any postwar part I needed, and most of the time get an authentic Lionel part.  I had to shop around the 10 or so top parts dealers, but if you kept looking, it was all out there.

I was there once or twice in the late 70's.  The brother's were there.  I needed an obsequie post war part.  I don't remember what the part was.  One of the brother's disappeared into the basement and eventually emerged with the part.  I also purchased a 6464 NH Orange Boxcar, NIB.   In the late 50's  my father would have my trains repair by Madison.   I still have those trains with the Madison repair stickers attached.

I never got there, but the ads in the model railroad magazines for so many years made it seem legendary. I read that the owners kept some really long hours. Maybe they were just cranky tired at times.

I discovered Model Railroader in my late 1940’s junior high years. I particularly liked to dream over the ads, and Madison hardware’s full pagers made it seem like THE New York City destination for Lionel trains. Oh to someday visit the store in person! It would take four decades, however.

When I was elected in 1986 to a six year term on the council of my professional guild headquartered in NYC, I would take 13 flights from California to NYC, staying for 5 days each time.  There was always sufficient off duty time to visit Madison Hardware, as well as Train World in Brooklyn. I also enjoyed riding nearly all the subways safely without incident. I especially liked the No. 1 (red line?) train that took me all the way from JFK to my destination at 120^th Street. It was a smooth ride in their most modern equipment. I have often felt a bit strange remembering that I rode under the twin towers each time.

New York was never the same after Madison Hardware left. I went back for a convention in 1996, and went down to 26th street to see the brightly lit, thoroughly modern  ladies shoe store it had become. Arhggg! BTW, I thought Lou and Carl came as close as they were able to liking me, but I still got the same treatment that others have mentioned.

Like many of you, I found the owner of my local Lionel shop, Henry’s Hobby House, in Worcester, MA, to have a grumpy demeanor.  One time, probably in the early sixties, I went in with my friends and Henry greeted us with “are you kids here to shoplift today”!

John

I lived in NYC on West 26th St. & 6th Avenue... Madison Hardware was about a 5 minute walk.   I have no idea how many times I went there other than MANY.  Great service, great train repairs, great parts (huge inventory) and of course new & used locos & rolling stock.  Worst day of my life is when I saw the tractor trailers loading and hauling it all away...

@Steam Crazy posted:

Like many of you, I found the owner of my local Lionel shop, Henry’s Hobby House, in Worcester, MA, to have a grumpy demeanor.  One time, probably in the early sixties, I went in with my friends and Henry greeted us with “are you kids here to shoplift today”!

John

Henry obviously was ahead of his time! Nowadays you can walk into an establishment in some states and walk out with anything you want (with certain value limits in some cases) with virtually no consequences. Back in the postwar period and pretty much through the end of the previous century, rampant shoplifting was not the problem that it is today.

One of our local shops had that kind of owner. If he liked you, you could do no wrong. If he didn't, out you go. Never hurt his sales at all. As for Madison Hardware, it seems to be they had a typical NYer attitude.

I never went there so this is pure speculation. Perhaps Lou and Carl never liked toy trains themselves so they always had an attitude but the store was simply their livelihood and enabled them to make a nice living from us train buffs.

I wish someone would have documented their "secret sauce" recipe for tuning the 773 Hudsons.  Some examples I've seen run amazingly well and the owner said that it was serviced or rebuilt by Madison Hardware.  If someone knows what they did, then perhaps they could share that on another thread...?

I went there many times in the 80's. I wrote a chapter in the book about Madison Hardware. I was there from about 10-17. I only went with my father as the brothers with difficult. Carl was great! He was a nice guy and treated this kid well. My old man worked for Citibank on Park Ave so he was treated well by them. We would go, and buy my stuff but then my father had it sent to Citibank via messenger, a NY thing. That impressed Carl. Lou never said anything, There was a box of cars for the auto-loader next to the cash register, $4 each. I always bought some. I got my Lionel Lines SD-28 there for Christmas in 83 or 84. Along with a ton of other stuff, I have 4 the painted tank cars that they did as well.  But, as I tell in my chapter, I watched them literally rip off a guy, Long story short, sold him a brand new 726 with a plastic 4 wheel Pennsylvania tender and told him that was the original tender. My Conrail GP-9 came from there as well. As someone said earlier the repair man was Joey, he was master repairman. He died in a car accident in 1986 or so. That was hard on them. My last time there was right before they closed. I came home from Dayton where I was in college and Dad told me they were closing. He gave me some money and I bought a postwar hopper and caboose. and Carl put them Madison stickers on them. I have still never opened them and they are on display in my basement. A month later it was all gone...

Great place. I'd pass it on the bus every morning on my way uptown.  Was a warm inviting scene on those dark snowy December mornings with those neons glowing 'Madison Hardware'.  It just gave you a good feeling about the Hobby and the Lionel empire.

Anyone remember the automatic start / stop layout that was in the store? As a young kid in the late 50's, I was more interested in that than the attitudes of the owners.     Earl G.

What was the address of the place in NYC?

I was there many times both as a student in NYC, but more frequently when I resided near Buffalo and worked for a bank which had Buffalo and NYC Headquarters. I would take the Lexington subway from Wall Street uptown several stops, during an extended lunch break.

I would typically purchase parts that were N/A elsewhere. I typically had a list or broken parts in hand. I was treated wonderfully,  nor did I ever see anyone "get the business" or treated rudely.

Maybe I was lucky, but I went out of my way to be respectful and wait my turn without complaining.

In my opinion, it was a wonderful place with a lot of great memories.

The place had a very unique musty odor which I vividly remember.

Too bad that it is now only a memory.

Definitely one of a kind. You experienced of a bit of a  time tunnel upon entering .

I lived in the Bronx in the 1960's ... took the subway to Madison. In August 1967 I bought 3 aluminum presidential passenger cars & a dummy 2383 "A" unit ... cost about $63.00. In June 1968 my dad bought me a 2360 GG1 ... the price at that time was $99.50. Lou & Carl were always nice to me. I got back into Lionel O gauge in the mid 1980's ... went back to Madison ... bought some 6464 boxcars & a few 6572 reefers. By that time the store was jammed with stuff all over the place! In the 1960's it was fairly orderly. I always enjoyed going there.

@BenLMaggi posted:

What was the address of the place in NYC?

105 East 23rd Street… a couple of doors off Park Ave. South - north side of the street.

I was in New York for the first time on business in 1988.  Made the required pilgrimage to Madison Hardware and had a great time with Carl & Lou.  Carl was outgoing and when he heard I was from Los Angeles, regaled me with stories when he lived there long before.  Carl was more serious: deliberate and business-like.  I bought three NIB 6464 boxcars and he asked me if I wanted them "wrapped."  I figured that was New York-ese for if I wanted a bag.  After I said "yes," he wrapped the items in brown paper and tied with twine.  Then, in a flourish, he twisted onto the twine a wooden handle with metal legs to carry the package back to the hotel.  Both gentlemen were entertaining and made my visit a pleasure and memorable, to this day. 

@Rob N posted:

Good evening,

I recently read a good article by P. Ambrose in TCA quarterly about his experience shopping at Madison Hardware.  I have also read Derek Thomas's excellent book on the store and its story.

And what issue might that be for those interested in reading it, please? 

Great posts everyone, thank you! 

Bob, the article was in the spring 2024 TCA quarterly. 

Cincytrains, it's been a while since I've read the book but I remember some of that information, so thank you for that chapter!  You're a good writer.  I'll have to pull out my book and re-read some of it (it's in storage). 

John, you're right, it's important then and now to be a courteous and patient customer.  I try to do that in any store I go to, and I don't expect VIP treatment.  That certainly would have been my approach at Madison, and hoped it worked out!  It's just that, like in my original post, if I would have been treated like some of the accounts I've read I probably wouldn't have gone back.  Interesting to hear others say that other hobby shop owners were like that and didn't care. 

The stories here are great and it certainly confirms my impression that Madison was a Lionel wonderland, and if you were a hobbyist you needed to see it at least once.  The brothers did a great job keeping it alive all those decades, and many had good experiences with them.  You take the bad with the good. 

Rob

I don't think that their attitude can simply be deemed to be a "New York Thing".

I've purchased from Train World and Train Land over the years and they were very nice to deal with......both before and after the Soprano "murder".  Different part of NYC.....but still.

And while I would not have tolerated that attitude unless I really needed a part, isn't it refreshing to hear about part availability from Big Orange more than three years after the locomotive came out? 

I had gone to Madison Hardware once (in the summer of 1985) with my dad.

I had always seen their ads in Model Railroader - maybe a 1/3 page ad with small font packed with model numbers and prices.

I had gotten my start with MPC trains (with engine numbers beginning with the number 8), so I truthfully did not know what a 2343 ABA even was.

As others have stated, the store was simply packed form floor to ceiling with trains. Two items that I recall seeing were D&H U36Cs (powered & dummy) and the Puritan - Chases Dirt reefer.

This was around the time that Lionel moved production to and from Mexico, so the supply chain was delayed

I was interested in a Lionel Erie Lackawanna GP20 (an engine part of Lionel's Traditional Line (i.e. can motors and all around cheaped out compared to Lionel's pulmor engines)

Most dealers had the engine priced at around $60. I have no idea which brother my dad and I dealt with - their price was $80, so I decided to pass

I had asked my LHS owner years ago about Madison Hardware, and he recalled a story when he went there looking for some tender decals

In a sentence, as he recalled, the brothers seemed to enjoy the drama that they created

He also mentioned that Frank Sinatra would pay visits

A few years later, I noticed an ad in CTT (with a smiling Lenny the Lion) announcing that Madison Hardware had moved to Detroit. I had no idea that Richard Kughn had purchased the business (and probably didn't know who he was or that he owned Lionel)

I just thought to myself what a large move that entailed