How much of a market is there for 21 inch passenger cars? I'm sure there are a fair number of large layouts with an 096 minimum of curves, but are there enough of those layouts to support only 21 inch cars being made for a couple years?
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cjack posted:How much of a market is there for 21 inch passenger cars? I'm sure there are a fair number of large layouts with an 096 minimum of curves, but are there enough of those layouts to support only 21 inch cars being made for a couple years?
Apparently so, as Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot has been offering/selling 21" scale passenger cars (both streamlined and heavyweights) for many. years. They always sell out, too.
Oh, I'd dare say that many of the 21" passenger car buyers have layouts to an O72 minimum. That encompasses a whole lot more of the market out there, to be sure.
While I agree with you that O96 minimum curves/switches would celebrate the cars length more appropriately (equivalent of 24" radius in the HO world....typically the manufacturers' specified minimum curve for full length passenger cars in that majority scale), that cramps a lot of basement operations/available real estate.
So, in answer to your question, I'd say the 21" passenger car market for O3R model railroading is alive and quite well. To a lesser, albeit reasonable compromise, the 18" car market/availability would be next. My preference, the 15" cars?.....anemic, forgotten, disdained, and otherwise a relic of the Post War era. Too bad, too. I'd be a big spender for K-Line's last version of these cars in additional flag schemes were some manufacturer to have the cajones to build/market them.
21" cars? Nor for me, though.
Always MHO, of course.
KD
I am fortunate enough to have a layout large enough to accomodate 21" passenger cars. I only purchase scale engines and rolling stock. I purchased and then returned the 21" SP cars to the my LHS.
I am curious which sub group of our toy/model train market Lionel is targeting with their 21" cars. I suspect the market that purchases 21" scale passenger cars is likely to be more particular when it comes to the model's fidelity to the prototype. I know I am. Would you agree with this assumption?
Because I assume that the 21" passenger car market is more particular, I am both surprised and disappointed with SP cars (not to mention the buckling name plates). I just don't get how producing a scale 21" passenger car that is not faithful to the prototype is a good idea. Perhaps I have it all wrong, and the majority of the people that purchased these cars don't care about fidelity and just want a scale sized passenger car. What do I know??
I expect many 21" car sets are never even put on the layout, let alone taken out of the box and/or run.
I ran 21" cars on my 072 layout, but as soon as I get my Mianne benchwork (just waiting on the word that it's shipped) I'm going up to 49.5" radius (099).
I buy and run 21 inch passenger cars on my home layout and at the club. I don't see any point to having scale engines and not running scale cars behind them whether they are freight or passenger. The minimum curve on both my home and the club's layout is O-72. Here is a scale 3rd Rail engine that has been converted to TMCC pulling a scale length Williams SF passenger consist at the club.
dkdkrd posted:Oh, I'd dare say that many of the 21" passenger car buyers have layouts to an O72 minimum. That encompasses a whole lot more of the market out there, to be sure.
While I agree with you that O96 minimum curves/switches would celebrate the cars length more appropriately (equivalent of 24" radius in the HO world....typically the manufacturers' specified minimum curve for full length passenger cars in that majority scale), that cramps a lot of basement operations/available real estate.
So, in answer to your question, I'd say the 21" passenger car market for O3R model railroading is alive and quite well. To a lesser, albeit reasonable compromise, the 18" car market/availability would be next. My preference, the 15" cars?.....anemic, forgotten, disdained, and otherwise a relic of the Post War era. Too bad, too. I'd be a big spender for K-Line's last version of these cars in additional flag schemes were some manufacturer to have the cajones to build/market them.
21" cars? Nor for me, though.
Always MHO, of course.
KD
The K-Line 15" passenger cars in aluminum were some of the best that have been on the market IMO.
For those that cannot run the 18" or 21" passenger cars the K-Line 15" cars were the best IMO.
Dave
Seeing as where my layout has O54 curves, I prefer the 18" cars. The 21" scale cars are beauties, but I don't have hpthe real estate to run them. I think they are a reasonable compromise.
21" passenger cars are being sold to both the 3 railers, the 3 rail scalers, and the two railers. These latest Lionel 21" cars come with screws and kaydee coupler mounts ( not the actual couplers.)
I have 072 curves but the old 16 inch passenger cars. I'd love 21 inch cars but I could only run 4 behind F units or PAs and have the train not look too long on my layout. Plus 21 inch cars have a crazy amount of overhang on 072 curves. I stick with the 16 inch cars so I can run 6 or 7 car trains without issue. Everything else I run is scale sized but, based on space, I had to compromise somewhere.
I buy 21" cars even though they don't look that great on my 072 curves. I do run body mounted Kadee's. I also don't model what would be called name trains. I like coaches and PULLMAN's. My passenger engines are either pretty much New Haven. Had to have the Weaver flyer cars and the GGD coaches. Have a few PUllMANS that I converted to Parlor cars. I like the mixed look rather than the standard matched sets offered by MTH and Lionel. The only matched set I owned was the K-Line ESE set that I ended up selling. Needless to say. These cars don't get run to often. Even had thoughts of taking out the large passenger station and changing it out to a freight yard.
What I have found. Is that the MTH 64 ft. Woodsided coaches running on a rural line is the way to go for me. These cars are very highly detailed and are scale. I recently re did one into the Rutland and it brings up the rear of my milk train. MTH did these cars up in all their glory as far as paint schemes from the early 1900's. These cars ran into the 40's. Would be nice if they offered some up with just basic lettering or even undecorated to use on branch lines pulled by smaller locos.
I have 096 Curves on the three main Lines on my Layout,prior to 21 inch Cars I ran 18 inch Cars by Lionel and MTH.When the Atlas 21 inch cars became available I bought all of the variations of the Cars in the CZ consist.The lionel 21 inch Cars dont hold a candle to the Atlas Cars.I then bought the GGD plastic SP Harriman Cars and they are beautifully done and prototypically correct.Lionel needs to Understand that when the Cars are 21 Inches they need to be correct.
Mikey
Whether we want to admit it or not, there's a segment of buyers who want these 21" passenger trains because the cars are new products that Lionel is offering NOW. Sort of like a "hot new product" syndrome. Whether they run these cars or stash them away in boxes is completely irrelevant. They just want what Lionel is selling, and that's an amazingly powerful phenomenon of the Lionel brand.
I suppose the more relevant question down the road is, "What's the SECONDARY market gonna be for these 21-inch passenger cars?". And I'll go out on a limb and say, "Probably not all that big of a market."
Why? Because the next group of enthusiasts who are buying these cars new today (i.e., after the pure brand loyalists) are those folks who CAN actually enjoy running them -- either on their own layout or a local club layout. And that's a pretty finite number of people. After that, the rest of the market will just wait out the availability of 18" or even 15" cars to be offered in the future (or now). For example, somebody already mentioned how great MTH's woodsided passenger cars are. And that's true. They're absolutely AMAZING. And they run -- as well as LOOK good -- on many, many, MANY more layouts than the 21" cars. Almost an order of magnitude more, I'm willing to bet.
So... No. Once the initial frenzy passes over Lionel's recent delivery of 21" cars, I doubt we'll see that much clamoring for too many more 21" offerings. And certainly not beyond the first two segments of buyers I mentioned above. Just look at the 86' boxcars. Try selling those on the OGR Forum, and see what kind of reception you'll get. 
David
I have O-72 curves. I have long freight cars, not passenger cars.
I would like to have the passengers in the passenger cars be moveable in some form.
Andrew
I think the 21" passenger cars will become white elephants or shelf queens. I am discovering that my Lionel SP, UP and Amtrak Dining car are beginning to have their Kinematic couplers pitch upward as the weight of the cars bend the post on the kinematic plate. I detailed all of my cars, but am not happy to see the couplers rubbing against the diaphragms and loosening them from my Amtrak Dining Car.
My C&O, NYC and Wabash cars did not show this weakness of the kinematic couplers because the Full Diaphragm bottom plate helped keep the couplers from rising up. They merely rubbed the bottom of the plastic Full Diaphragm.
The photos may be blurred because the train is moving to put pull on the couplers to show their upward movement.
I gotta tell ya, those couplers look hideous 
. They ought to make Talgo trucks for those cars with Kadees on them to negotiate tight curves.
The market is probably quite small but over-represented on this forum.m
Well detailed 15 inch or smaller cars probably compromise the vast majority of the average hobbyist’s passenger cars.
John Rowlen posted:I think the 21" passenger cars will become white elephants or shelf queens. I am discovering that my Lionel SP, UP and Amtrak Dining car are beginning to have their Kinematic couplers pitch upward as the weight of the cars bend the post on the kinematic plate. I detailed all of my cars, but am not happy to see the couplers rubbing against the diaphragms and loosening them from my Amtrak Dining Car.
My C&O, NYC and Wabash cars did not show this weakness of the kinematic couplers because the Full Diaphragm bottom plate helped keep the couplers from rising up. They merely rubbed the bottom of the plastic Full Diaphragm.
The photos may be blurred because the train is moving to put pull on the couplers to show their upward movement.
Those coupler problems are clearly a manufacturing design defect. It is unfortunate that many manufacturers don't expect anyone to run their model trains.
NH Joe
New Haven Joe posted:.... It is unfortunate that many manufacturers don't expect anyone to run their model trains. ....
You'd think they'd have gotten past that thinking years ago, since today's O-Gauge model train "culture" has been evolving from pure collector to full-time operator for almost two decades now. This didn't just happen overnight.
But I agree... you'd get the strong impression that some of the importers and manufacturers are still HOPING folks just buy this stuff and stick it on a wall shelf... or stash it away in storage for years. After all, they just care that we BUY this stuff... they don't care if or how we USE it. 
David
I respectfully disagree with David. If there is a trend, the K-Line 21" cars have set the bar and those cars still sell- even if their window configuration is not quite right.
I am in the market for quality 21" cars. I purchased the Lionel Blue bird cars, and that the last lionel passenger car I would buy. Between the roof vents falling off the couplers, station sound dinner not working properly even after being sent in for warranty. Maybe I was spoiled with owning a number of K-line 21"
It's a sad day when instead of improving the quality in manufacturing, we are moving the other way.
I have a bunch of K-Lines, all converted to 2-rail. Really happy with them. They get scale length trucks, insulated center sills, and couple with diaphragms touching.
The diaphragms have started to deteriorate, but I can easily replace them with paper accordion style.
I run them on 74" radius, which is, in 3-rail vernacular, O-148. The extra detail on these nice Lionel plastic products would be nice, but I find having realistic track and wheels far more important than roof rivet detail. And I prefer metal toys.
While 21" cars look nice even with a layout 14' x 28' they cannot be accommodated on my curves that vary widely. The standard aluminum O gauge cars make the curves and visitors never notice the difference from true scale anyway. I cannot see O scale rolling stock being a very large market.
bob2 posted:
I run them on 74" radius, which is, in 3-rail vernacular, O-148. The extra detail on these nice Lionel plastic products would be nice, but I find having realistic track and wheels far more important than roof rivet detail. And I prefer metal toys.
Wow! Those are some very nice O-scale curves. Talk about real estate needed... But isn't 74" radius still pretty sharp to be considered prototypical? As best I can find, 410 ft radius is the recommended minimum radius for most railroad operation. That would figure just over 100" radius for O-scale if you wanted prototypical curves. (410 ft radius calculates right at 14 degrees of curvature, using 100 ft as the reference chord length, O-scale = 25")
cjack posted:How much of a market is there for 21 inch passenger cars? I'm sure there are a fair number of large layouts with an 096 minimum of curves, but are there enough of those layouts to support only 21 inch cars being made for a couple years?
Hi Chuck.
Several people with O-72 or larger curves on their layouts have requested full-scale cars. The big reason is scale locomotives. An F-unit ABBA or E-unit ABA set looks a little silly when the locomotive consist is almost as long as the string of cars behind it. I have a Metrolink car set from MTH (70-foot) and the cars don't look right with the F59PHi diesel as it's only 2 inches shorter than the cars. I was lucky enough to get a K-Line full-scale set for a good price, plus an Atlas Horizon car (Metrolink was leasing some for additional capacity). Looks much better.
One suggestion to MTH was to phase their 70-foot cars into the Rail King Line as Imperial models and go to full-scale in their Premier line. So far, they haven't responded. However, Lionel's introduction of the Kinematic coupler on their 86-foot Excess-Height box cars and Auto Racks made larger cars more viable for O-72 layouts. But the caveat here is that even though they'll operate reliably on O-72, there is the aesthetic factor as the curves look sharp and the cars get farther apart to compensate. Here's my set on a test run at the club on an O-96 curve. It still looks somewhat sharp. When I build an outdoor layout, I'm going for much larger curves -- at least 72" radius (O-144).
If I can't run O scale on decent curves(120 or larger) then I'll go to a smaller scale.
I do run 21" cars with 805 Kadee's body mounted. My curves are 072 in a couple spots maybe slightly tighter. Some are 180 degrees. I use Gargraves flex. Do they look good. NO. On a straight portion. Yes. As they are closely coupled. The cars are almost a V shape going through turns. Do the stay on the rails. No problems as long as every car has a body mounted coupler. Mix them with anything truck mounted and you will have a derailment. The key with running Kadee's with 072 is you must have easements entering and exiting the curve. You have to stay away from sectional track. At least entering and exiting the curve. You will need probably 8 ft wide benchwork to accomplish this. You can have 072 minimum which takes up normally 6 feet. The extra 2 feet is needed for the easements. The cars seem to need to settle into the curve. So I'm not running a true 072 curve. It's just close to 072 in the middle portion. Run these into an 072 off a straight portion and you will have an instant derailment.
Those gaps in the UP cars looks huge. K-Line did a better job years ago. Below are a few pics of some GGD Coaches. The Kadee's are the answer. Unless your running 096 or so and up. I don't think body mounting will work unless you have easements.
prrhorseshoecurve posted:I respectfully disagree with David. If there is a trend, the K-Line 21" cars have set the bar and those cars still sell- even if their window configuration is not quite right.
I think the K-Line 21" passenger cars remain desirable for a few reasons:
Compare them to GGD, which are pretty much considered the passenger car "reference standard" for scale accuracy today... and priced accordingly when brand new. I currently have an 8-car GGD NYC ESE set listed on the for-sale forum in Like-New condition, but no takers even at a price just under what I paid a couple of years ago (which I believe was the original MSRP when the cars were first produced several years before that, as I am the second owner).
That's why I mentioned what I did relative to the "secondary market" in my earlier post. If we had a to "rate" the new Lionel 21" cars, I'd put them behind GGD by a pretty good margin -- notwithstanding, of course, Lionel's terrific StationSounds technology which takes top billing across the board. But even at that, I don't see the Lionel 21" passenger cars holding their own on the secondary market several years from now.
The folks who really want the Lionel 21" cars will have already purchased them NOW. That wasn't necessarily the case with the K-Line cars many years ago, since a lot of today's operators weren't "operators" back in the day when K-Line first offered those jewels. So we missed that boat back then, which tends to fuel the high-desirability factor today. 
David
The 21” cars are beautiful but I’m not interested. I had one set of Kline and sold them mostly because I am looking for an 18” set. The 18” look better on 072 curves for me. I have many of the Lionel 15” simply due to the fact that’s all that were available at the time.
David,
I don’t believe the buy and sell sub-forum is any indicator of the actual secondary market. There are far to few new / newer members buying here, this is an older crowd who buy new, have seen the same things issued before, or just have to much already. I believe you have written as much multiple times. Items that sit for months even marked down 50% might not sell, whereas on several Facebook groups they sell in hours at 15% off, or even on eBay, or with any of the train auctions, sales are robust.
The movement across the hobby is from toys to models, we see everywhere, but especially in engines — take a simple SD45, the MTH premier version from the late 90’s and redone a few times in the early 2000’s, awesome at the time is now Railking, and far below par to their newer version. If the majority are pushing details and scale, why would they also not want scale / details rolling stock and passenger cars?
15” cars may well look better going around corners, but much like the silhouette windows they often have/had, the trend line is to scale equipment.
My own bias is towards the 21” cars, I have nearly a 100 of them, until this week all K-Line and GGD, and now a few Lionel — we’ll see how they go. As others have noted they don’t look great in the curves, the good news being my layout is not a spaghetti bowl, and they do look great on the long straightaways.
Bob Delbridge posted:I gotta tell ya, those couplers look hideous
I was going to say the same this here - Bob made the point so eloquently....
CincinnatiWestern posted:David,
I don’t believe the buy and sell sub-forum is any indicator of the actual secondary market. There are far to few new / newer members buying here, this is an older crowd who buy new, have seen the same things issued before, or just have to much already. I believe you have written as much multiple times. Items that sit for months even marked down 50% might not sell, whereas on several Facebook groups they sell in hours at 15% off, or even on eBay, or with any of the train auctions, sales are robust.
...
Cincy-Western,
I agree with you 1,000% regarding the buy/sell forum here -- especially with regard to it being a crowd who's now tilting the scale with owning too many trains already. However, the forum still represents a good crowd (generally speaking), if you have items to sell that are highly sought-after. Just the other day somebody listed a brand new Lionel Milwaukee Road S-3 #265 steamer still sealed for $875 , and I almost jumped at it myself since I saw the listing within a minute or two of its posting. But the more rational side of me prevailed (since I really don't "need" it), and 20 minutes later the seller thankfully marked it "sale pending". So I was able to sleep peacefully 
with the temptation gone and no longer needing to wonder if I should respond to the seller so I could double-head it with #261 already in my fleet.
So I guess all I'm saying is I wasn't placing Lionel's latest 21" passenger cars in the same "highly sought-after" category as something like a well-priced Milwaukee Road S-3, or a VisionLine GE EVO, or a die-cast ES44 -- all of which would sell rather quickly. I recall years when even the MTH 18" flag/baggage car (with the yellow door in the flag) would fetch quite the premium and move fast... until Lionel announced its UP Excursion cars with a flag car. And that quickly put an end to the escalating frenzy of owning MTH's flag car. Timing is everything!!!
David
I have become a fan of the 21" cars and over the past few years expanded my roster. I mix Amtrak cars made by Lionel, Atlas, GGD, and K-line for a true Amtrak mix of heritage fleet cars. Recently added Lionel 21" cars in Wabash, Burlington Northern, and soon to deliver Penn Central.
Williams 21" cars also, plastic and aluminum.
I enjoy passenger cars of all sizes, and have all varieties, changing out what I am running periodically. The 21" cars tend to get much more track time recently though. Really enjoy them.
cjack posted:How much of a market is there for 21 inch passenger cars? I'm sure there are a fair number of large layouts with an 096 minimum of curves, but are there enough of those layouts to support only 21 inch cars being made for a couple years?
(Emphasis mine).
I'm surprised no one has raised an eyebrow at that wording, because I'm certain somebody by now would have taken that (hypothetical) situation as suggesting that manufacturers say "those of you lacking barn-sized layouts can pound sand for a couple of years"
I know there are finescalers out there who would love to see that happen, but still...
---PCJ
RailRide posted:cjack posted:How much of a market is there for 21 inch passenger cars? I'm sure there are a fair number of large layouts with an 096 minimum of curves, but are there enough of those layouts to support only 21 inch cars being made for a couple years?
(Emphasis mine).
I'm surprised no one has raised an eyebrow at that wording, because I'm certain somebody by now would have taken that (hypothetical) situation as suggesting that manufacturers say "those of you lacking barn-sized layouts can pound sand for a couple of years"
I know there are finescalers out there who would love to see that happen, but still...
---PCJ
Well, here's one simplistic perspective...sure to "raise eyebrows"
...
Big curvature minimums (O96)⇒Big basements⇒Big house⇒Big mortgage⇒Big income⇒Big demands⇒Big influence⇒Big results = 21" O3R passenger cars.
Wife has a word for it: Testosterone. Like the rhythmic re-re-re-re-releases of Big Boys!
Dilly, dilly......as they say.
Signed: One of the 'Little People'...
To scale modelers, "21 inch cars" are meaningless. Models of real cars are based on specific prototypes which were ofter unique to RR. An 80 ft (scale) Pullman 12-1 sleeper (about 21 inches long over couplers) would have a market in O scale. A generic 21 inch car would not. the same with coaches, most are somewhat to a lot unique. PRR and B&O for example used "paired window" coaches while NYC did not. They are all 70 ft cars (about 20 inches) but the paired window cars have each pair of windows with a narrow post separating within the pair and a wide post between them and the next pair. The Pennsy car would have their unique 4 wheel trucks, the B&O would have a 6 wheel truck and I don't know about the NYC. A passenger car's length is generally described in prototype terms as the space between but not including vestibules. So even a 60 ft car (60 ft is 15 inches in O) is longer becuase you have to add a few inches for the vestibules.
What I am trying to say is that for serious modelers, there is probably no market for generic 21 inch long cars in either 2 or 3 rail.
If MTH started making "affordable" 21'' passenger cars, id be all over that. They would sell them like hot cakes like they have with their 18'' passenger cars. In my opinion they would be better quality for the money...after seeing the issues with them from Lionel.
If you don't like how they look around the corners don't play with o gauge or build a bigger layout. At least on the wall it will look amazing.
Bruk posted:If MTH started making "affordable" 21'' passenger cars, id be all over that. They would sell them like hot cakes like they have with their 18'' passenger cars. In my opinion they would be better quality for the money...after seeing the issues with them from Lionel.
If you don't like how they look around the corners don't play with o gauge or build a bigger layout. At least on the wall it will look amazing.
I hope they do make them because then the lionel cars will get better and so will mth cars and so fourth. little competition never hurt anything. But thats a massive tooling expense. Hard to imagine they'd me much cheaper if at all to cover those cost. Thats if they were to take the leap on the tooling.
I like my Allas Zephyr set with 2 3rd rail E8s, all 30+ feet of it. My switching layout is 16' long. I bought just because i liked it, no other reason.
Dick
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