Market for 21 Inch Cars?

MTH does make 21 inch Cars in European Roads and they are very well done,I have the Orient Express Cars and the Detail is excellent on these Cars.

Mikey

prrjim posted:

SNIP To scale modelers, "21  inch cars" are meaningless.    Models of real cars are based on specific prototypes which were ofter unique to RR.    An 80 ft (scale) Pullman 12-1 sleeper (about 21 inches long over couplers) would have a market in O scale.    A generic 21 inch car would not. SNIP

What prrjim said.

If the prototype turns out to be 21" in O scale, then that's what it should be.  I recently built an old Walthers coach kit of a prototype that was only 68', that's 17" in O scale.  Prototypical diners, baggage, and post office cars were often shorter than 84' (21").

As long as the makers offer "accurate" 21" cars there will be a market for them.

New Haven Joe posted:

I buy and run 21 inch passenger cars on my home layout and at the club.  I don't see any point to having scale engines and not running scale cars behind them whether they are freight or passenger.

I believe its what length car looks appropriate on your layout. For me 60' & 72' cars  (15" & 18") (they're all scale) look just about perfect.   MY layout is medium sized with O-72 curves.  84' cars (21") are so far out of proportion, its almost laughable to watch then try and navigate it.  It really makes my entire layout appear out of dimension.  

joe   

If folks HAVE a layout already, then they should know what "looks good" vs. what "looks out of place".  But at the end of the day, what looks good is a highly subjective matter.  So it's a tough call, although you gotta admit... asking if these 21-inchers can navigate O-48 curves is definitely pushing the envelope.  I mean.... really, at that point, why even bother when two 21" cars almost spans the circle of O-48 curves!!!  

As I said earlier, some folks are buying these 21" cars because that's what Lionel is selling now.  And they want the newest "hot items" being delivered.  Although I don't know exactly how "hot" these items are gonna be, given the poor roll-out some folks have experienced.  The jury is still out on these, although I wouldn't be too surprised to see a few of these cars making an appearance on the $20 table at Lionel's warehouse sale in November! 

David

I run my GGD and Atlas 21" cars frequently.  Spending my formative hobby years next to a 1:1 passenger railroad prior to having my first layout, I expect my models to be prototypical lengths.  They are well received by members of the public when I run them on club layouts, especially when I'm over 12 cars.

While play value is more important to me than resale value, GGD aluminum cars rarely come up on eBay for much less than the original sales price.  The sets don't come up often at all.  I can't speak to the Lionel 21" cars because I did not purchase them. 

I respect opinions of others who are not a fan of scale sized cars.  All I can say is that I am more than happy that we have scale options in O.  Otherwise, I probably would not have stuck with O. 

GG1 4877 posted:

 

I respect opinions of others who are not a fan of scale sized cars.  All I can say is that I am more than happy that we have scale options in O.  Otherwise, I probably would not have stuck with O. 

As I poster earlier, whether the car is 15", 18"' or 21", they are all prototypical and scale sized.  What is more important is what time period or railroad you're modeling.. I believe in the early years,1910-1930, 84' cars (21") still didn't exist yet.  If its fantasy it makes no difference.   Also till the end most smaller railroads never acquired 84' cars...

joe

JC642 posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

 

I respect opinions of others who are not a fan of scale sized cars.  All I can say is that I am more than happy that we have scale options in O.  Otherwise, I probably would not have stuck with O. 

As I poster earlier, whether the car is 15", 18"' or 21", they are all prototypical and scale sized.  What is more important is what time period or railroad you're modeling.. I believe in the early years,1910-1930, 84' cars (21") still didn't exist yet.  If its fantasy it makes no difference.   Also till the end most smaller railroads never acquired 84' cars...

joe

You'll have an awful hard time finding a prototype 60' vista-dome.

However, here's some real life shorties:

...but you wouldn't see them on any first class "name" train.

Rusty

When you spend enough time around the real thing, 18" cars look goofy . Yes you need substantial curves for the 21" cars, but the vast majority of passenger cars on the rails are 85' which works out to 21".

And the dreaded end result of those beautiful short wood cars is this

I don't currently have a layout, but the beauty of this is you don't have to have a layout to have scale accurate equipment. I buy 21" cars all the time and just take them to my local club.

Will Ebbert posted:

When you spend enough time around the real thing, 18" cars look goofy . Yes you need substantial curves for the 21" cars, but the vast majority of passenger cars on the rails are 85' which works out to 21".

I'm wondering how goofy looking would a tiny Atlantic appear hauling a string of 84' Bi-levels?  Putting it in perspective, back in the steam era days only a handful of railroads, mostly out west in the later days owned 84' passenger cars...  Today, in excursion service, other then UP most RR's run everything they find available that works.  A mixed bag from 60' to 84' cars...

joe 

aterry11 posted:

And the dreaded end result of those beautiful short wood cars is this

Looks like a cattle car to me!

Simon

JC642 posted:

 

Putting it in perspective, back in the steam era days only a handful of railroads, mostly out west in the later days owned 84' passenger cars... 

joe 

Chopped liver?

Rusty

JC642 posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

When you spend enough time around the real thing, 18" cars look goofy . Yes you need substantial curves for the 21" cars, but the vast majority of passenger cars on the rails are 85' which works out to 21".

I'm wondering how goofy looking would a tiny Atlantic appear hauling a string of 84' Bi-levels?  Putting it in perspective, back in the steam era days only a handful of railroads, mostly out west in the later days owned 84' passenger cars...  Today, in excursion service, other then UP most RR's run everything they find available that works.  A mixed bag from 60' to 84' cars...

joe 

I've never heard of a tourist railroads doing that. Aside from our commissary car, all of our coaches, diners, Pullman cars, and observations are 85' at TVRM. We have Southern railway heavyweights from as early as 1910 that are 85'.

JC642 posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

When you spend enough time around the real thing, 18" cars look goofy . Yes you need substantial curves for the 21" cars, but the vast majority of passenger cars on the rails are 85' which works out to 21".

I'm wondering how goofy looking would a tiny Atlantic appear hauling a string of 84' Bi-levels?  Putting it in perspective, back in the steam era days only a handful of railroads, mostly out west in the later days owned 84' passenger cars...  Today, in excursion service, other then UP most RR's run everything they find available that works.  A mixed bag from 60' to 84' cars...

joe 

Well Joe, I don't know where you got your information but, you are NOT correct about when & where 84 foot passenger equipment came into use, and what railroads used them. You might want to do some more extensive research about passenger equipment on U.S. railroads, beginning in the early 1900s.

"I'm wondering how goofy looking would a tiny Atlantic appear hauling a string of 84' Bi-levels?"

Hmmm....  Not Atlantics, but small Pacific's...

Rusty

21" is not exactly to scale, but 1/4" doesn't matter to most.

GenesisFan99 posted:

21" is not exactly to scale, but 1/4" doesn't matter to most.

Well what it really comes down to is the cars aren't exactly 21". Nobody is going to call them 21 1/4 inch cars. 

jeremy ferrell posted:

I hope they do make them because then the lionel cars will get better and so will mth cars and so fourth.  little competition never hurt anything.  But thats a massive tooling expense.  Hard to imagine they'd me much cheaper if at all to cover those cost.  Thats if they were to take the leap on the tooling.    

MTH already has the 80' passenger car drawings to make them, they are just in HO scale. Their HO passenger cars are beautiful. All they would have to do is scale them up, tweak some of design, and slap some O scale trucks on them. They would still be the fraction of the cost of GGD and less and more "solid" than Lionel's I think.

 As much as I'd like to see MTH start offering 21" cars I think Lionel doing so solidifies MTH's reasoning to stick with 18". They have a very consistent, high quality product that appeals to a lot of people. 

Will Ebbert posted:

 As much as I'd like to see MTH start offering 21" cars I think Lionel doing so solidifies MTH's reasoning to stick with 18". They have a very consistent, high quality product that appeals to a lot of people. 

I agree, Will, and hope they offer their 18” plated stainless cars to go with the new Legacy F3s. I have no room for the 21” cars and, even if I did, no interest in plastic trucks with thumbtacks. 

Will Ebbert posted:

 As much as I'd like to see MTH start offering 21" cars I think Lionel doing so solidifies MTH's reasoning to stick with 18". They have a very consistent, high quality product that appeals to a lot of people. 

Well yeah, because that's the biggest scale looking passenger car that MTH offered for the last 20+ years. They are affordable to most people that want a somewhat 'scale" looking train. They are also better than anything Lionel offered up and till the 21'' in my opinion and many others will agree.  The only nice looking "scale" passenger cars Lionel made were their heavyweights but for the scale modeler they are still too short in length. I personally do not like any of Lionel 18' passenger cars they made and offered to match their scale engines.

If MTH started their own 21'' line. I'm sure more and more people will start buying those over the 18'' passenger cars.

I am very open minded person when it comes to these companies, I don't swing left or right. I like things they offer/do and disagree with things they do and don't do. I don't favor one over another.

Ray Lombardo posted:

The market is probably quite small but over-represented on this forum.m

Well detailed 15 inch or smaller cars probably compromise the vast majority of the average hobbyist’s passenger cars.

I'd agree with this, and think the 21" market is over-represented on the Forum, where a large number of those who post are relatively hard-core O gaugers, many of whom have large layouts.

Even for those with fairly large layouts, running shorter cars allows those who want to run longer, more prototypical passenger consists the ability to do so. In any case, I think the vast majority of the market centers around those with modest layouts for whom the 15" cars are best. Even with 15" cars, an A-B-A with 6 cars stretches almost 12 feet long, which takes a pretty large layout to look good. The demand? The most recent 15" sets, the Neil Young series, are extremely hard to find.

If I had to guess I'd say 18" cars are probably 50% of the market interest with 21" being about 30% and 15" 20%. Entirely my opinion with no data to back it. 

Interesting post to me even though I'm entire non/semi-scale. I love the look of the 21" passenger cars, especially the ones behind the scale GG-1, but I have no chance of running them.  All of my passenger cars are 13" or less and rated for O27, yet I have mostly 54" and 42" curves on my mainlines with a few 34". Our Christmas layout is 36", 48", and 60" loops of fastrack. The O27 cars look great on these mid-sized curves. I can't imagine going any bigger, maybe the 15", with mid-sized curves. Seems like 21" cars belong on 96" curves or greater irrespective of whether they'll make it around smaller.

MTH really should offer 21" cars. Nothing wrong with offering both 18" and both 21" versions of something, both versions sell. 15" cars though are a little short for me. That's not to say they can't be done well. K-Line did a wonderful job with their cars. I have nothing against someone for example running an MTH Bantam GS-4 with K-Line 15" Daylight cars.