Maybe they really should bring production back to the U.S.

While I agree with you, it will not happen. There are so many factors involved! Labor issues, environmental issues, manufacturing issues etc..It is the society we live in, we wanted everything cheaper and quicker. Be careful what you wish for because it may come true!

Up next, higher prices and long delays in product delivery.

RAL,

I agree with you 100%!!!!

These, new items are very costly and as a matter of fact, over priced, which is my two cents worth of an opinion, even with all of its' bells and whistles!

Then, right out of the box, BRANDEEE NEW, for the most part something, or somethings goes wrong!

Yeah!  I know, that's progress!  Bull!

That's highway robbery!

Ralph

Who are you talking about (ie Who's business model?) when you use the pronoun "they?" Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Weaver, Bachman-Williams, 3rd Rail?...

I understand.  I used to be of your view.  Things change I guess.

I don't want to argue with you.  I think I was pretty clear in terms of the products I described.  

Between A&B,

'H'- All of the above!!!!!
Ralph

it will never happen-it is still cheaper to have items made in china

I don't want to stir the pot or start a battle, I'll post one comment, my opinion nothing more, and I'm done.

Blame the American consumer, we want more for less...

Granted there are some that seek out American made but realize that # is such a small drop in the bucket.

Sorry to hear of your issues...

BTW - Took my Tahoe in for the 6th time in 3 months for the heated seat switch...

It happens everywhere...

Joseph,

I know you are probably correct.  Just frustrated that the stuff is so spotty in terms of reliability.  If Apple can build high quality computers, iPhones, and iPads in China, not so sure why it would be an issue for other manufacturers.  I am just frustrated right now.  Not a big deal in the scheme of things, but I don't like not being able to handle repairing these things myself.  Just a needless PITA.  

I understand the 'Planed Obsolescence' scheme, but the things are right out of the box.
Yes, I am saying it.

Rick, I need your the dead horse and club!

Ralph 

It's all a matter of scale and how much effort will be put into the job based on how much revenue the job brings in.

Since everyone and his uncle has an ipad/iphone, the company that makes them gets quite a large contract from Apple.  You naturally try harder to do a good job and not tick off customers who bring in such a large part of your business.  (plus, since you make so many of the darned things, a small percentage of defects gets absorbed and simply exchanged when there are problems.  Since ipads/iphones are not made in small "made to order" quantities, this is a fully workable business model with very few ticked off end users)  I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that no ipad/iphone user has ever been told the day after they bought one that was DOA that they had to send it back to Apple for repair for a few weeks or more. 

Since comparatively few people have trains, the company gets quite a smaller contract from Lionel/MTH.  Only so much effort can be expended for these products, as it's a much smaller chunk of the total business pie.  Since many trains are made in small "made to order" quantities, we know that when defects make it to the end user, it's quite often not an "exchange it" situation (though it should be - I refuse to send something brand new in for repair).  It's hit or miss if your dealer has a "spare" to exchange for you.

As mentioned above, this horse has been dead for a long time.  It is still a shame to hear about the problems with three trains purchased for Christmas though.

-Dave

We may not make the trains anymore but America has become very good at making the boxes.

Keep in mind China only holds a paltry 1.28 trillion dollar of us. If we don't let them make our trains for a profit then who are we going to borrow money from to buy them?

I speak in silliness and I whole heatedly agree with RickO about beating the dead horse.

We use to be good at a lot of things but now we just run around delivering pizza to each other. Do you really think that we could do a better job building things? I am and always have been a proud American...it's just a whole new game now with an ever changing set of rules. 

I guess, other than damages during shipment, that 'Quality Control,' at the factory, is a hit, or miss type of job?!

Rick, forget the horse, I need the club to defend myself!!!

Ralph

Dave,

You raise good points, all valid.  For what it is worth, this consumer will be spending his money differently going forward.  That will be doing my part to incentivize these folks to do a better job with the quality end of the equation. 

Fwiw, I am typing this on a 7 year old MacBook Pro, made in China, illustrating Jeff's point that there is nothing inherent to people's race that makes quality inherent.  It's the underlying incentives.  Here, as others have said, we just want too much, too cheaply.

But that is the point.  They are not all the same. Some very different business models, ownership structures, warranty, repair, parts policies, retail distribution chains, lines of accountability, quality control practices, & differences in responsiveness to end customers. Spreadsheet aside, like most other consumer product categories, one attempts to become as informed as possible & then make purchase & expectation decisions accordingly. It is nothing more simple or complex than the basic principles of retail commerce.

I saved an article from "Parade" magazine published last September, as I had a feeling this topic was going to come up again.  It seems there is hope for a return of some manufacturing to the U.S., according to Harvard Business School professor Willy Shih.

Starting in the mid-2000s, labor costs in China started increasing, and the recession forced many U.S. industries to reorganize.  This made labor costs and productivity more favorable.

A very hopeful signal is a Harris poll whose results showed that 75% of U.S. consumers are willing to pay more for domestically produced goods.  Eighteen-to-twenty-four-year olds were the largest group to support this.

Labor expert Robert Reich states that our biggest obstacle to ramping up manufacturing in the U.S. is getting workers who have the correct skills.  Huge assembly lines of yore have given way to high-tech and precision operations.  Workers often can't afford training, and training is often obsolete anyway because of budget cuts.  He sees a big need for two-year degrees starting the senior year of high school and continuing one year beyond.

In spite of this, the article gave several examples of returned/new manufacturing.  Here are two:  GE is putting up $1 billion for its appliance section.  Motorola designed, engineered and manufactures their Moto X smartphone in the U.S. 

A list of companies building products in the U.S can be found at parade.com/usa, according to the article.  Whether our beloved trains will ever join the list, I do not know. 

Between A&B,

You are correct and the list of venders you previously gave is to be taken into consideration, because, if, I'm a vender and have damaged and retuned merchandise, I along with the manufacturer, will eventually, get a bad reputation.

The only solution, which, is difficult and at times impossible and if time and personnel permit, is to check every incoming stock, before sale.

Ralph

On a totally unrelated note, I wear Lucky Brand Jeans. They are made, oops, were made in Los Angeles. Lucky shipped manufacturing to Mexico several years ago.

This past holiday season we stopped in a Lucky store and I noticed a different label on the jeans. Made in USA. I asked the clerk what happened and she said that the company got so much backlash from folks like me who wore them because they were American made they brought manufacturing back to the states.

I did buy another pair!!

i see a major problem right off the bat . Where are you going to get the workers. Everybody works for the government. Yes we have 7  percent unemployment rate but we would need a tremendous amount of skilled workers and enginers .  All of best minds get MBA degrees and go to on wall street . The rest go to work for the government.Then you have the problem of all the government agencys  over regulating  the business from your local towns to the feds. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth

Ask Phillip B Crosby that question.

The above picture is of a worker assembling prewar 3/16" scale O gauge Gilbert AF Atlantics in New Haven, circa 1941. A. C. Gilbert visited the production lines every workday and took a keen interest in engineering, assembly quality, and the welfare of his 'associates'. His office was just a few floors above where this picture was taken. I have an Atlantic similar to those being assembled in the picture. It still runs superbly today. 

Neat picture, by the way.

Bob

Great quality items can be made anywhere in the world.

Poor quality items can be made anywhere in the world.

It boils down to the company selling the product and what kind of QC they demand of their vendor.

To get lower prices they lower QC demands.

I do think you are beating a dead horse here......we have talked this one to death.

Steve, Lady and Tex

Hi RAL,

I feel your pain.

I suspect part of the problem is similar to my recent automoblies. The more "conveniences" you have on them, the more potential problems you will have. It has gotten to the point that I put up with minor annoyances rather than be without the car for a day or more because the dealer may or may not be able to fix it.

I think it's great to pull out an old PW Lionel F3 that hasn't been on the layout for decades and see it run really well. 

But it's also fun to see the modern MTH talking, chuffing, and smoking locos run.

I try to discipline myself and vote with my dollars but, maybe it's the optimist in me, I keep on buying the new stuff and put up with the poor Q.C.

As it turns out, the frequency of problems is probably proportional to what we are asking the model to do.

TJ

It would be refreshing if whenever the forum took up these old, old, old topics for the umpty-millionth time, something new were said, but as RickO has so eloquently observed, this horse has been beaten - and I think, long-buried.

I think manufacturing will come back to the US/North America/Europe, mostly and partly as and because workers in other parts of the world will demand higher wages and because US companies will seek to use technology rather than labor as labor costs in "low cost" parts of the world no longer are that low.   I'm not holding my breath and I don't think that would make any difference.  

I am sorry some folks have problems, but I don't see any industry problem, because I don't have any actual experience that indicates quality is poor or there really is a problem:

• Three of eight RTR sets (four MTH, Four Lionel) I have bought in the last four years for grandkids or to play with here have had loco or controller/power supply problems soon after taking things out of the box.  I don't view this as indicative of industry quality at all, but as proof that "you get what you pay for" and that both companies are trying too hard to compete on price at the entry level.
• I'm now something around 25 out of 28 perfect in the last 3- 4 years buying mid- (Railking, Lionel conventional standard) locos and high end (Premier, Legacy/Vision, 3rd Rail) locos.  The three exceptions were all minor things: a recalcitrant coupler, a railing that needed to be straightened.
• As to automobiles as a proxy for quality-control-around-the-world-is-going-down-the-toilet, over the past 15 years I have bought three Chevies, one Lincoln, and one each car assembled in Germany, England, and Italy.  None of them ever went back to the dealer for any quality defect or recall had anything go wrong with them that ever needed to be corrected when new or during my period of ownership (usually five-six years and 40,000 mile): annual inspection, change the fluids and filters as prescribed, put new tires and wiper blades on them when needed.     

Lee,

I appreciate your perspective, but if this has been beaten to death, why waste your time responding?  If the goal of the forum is only to discuss those issues that are new, at some point, won't we run out of things to talk about?  How many re-issues of the Big Boy will remain interesting?  Perhaps we should reduce the forum to a search functionality then so as to reduce the repetition?  That would be the most efficient solution from a repetition perspective, and require pre-screening of new posts to determine if there is new content that is worthwhile.  We can make it, in other words, into some sort of O gauge wiki.

As to the substance of the issue, the reason it keeps coming up is because, judging from my experience and that of others, quality remains a problem.  Your train buying experience, while extensive, is still largely anecdotal, as is mine.  But when you combine everything you hear in this place -- fair to say a central gathering point in the O gauge community -- it is pretty apparent that issues are fairly common.  The question will then arise again and again as hobbyists such as myself continue to get frustrated that, for example, a locomotive I bought my kid for Christmas still doesn't function correctly a month afterwards because the required part is unavailable.

As far as where items are made being the reason for the lack of quality about which I complain, I take the points made above that crap or quality can basically be made anywhere, so it is unfair of me, in my frustration, to lambast the Chinese or any other nation.  Point noted.  But at the same time, the move overseas was done for one reason:  cost.  And it is no doubt true that the American consumer wants more for less, and doesn't want to pay for quality in many instances.  The point of my thread, besides a little healthy venting to fellow hobbyists, was to make the point for those firms who no doubt come here regularly that (1) I will pay more for quality (and despite your valued perspective, I ain't seeing quality right now); and (2) current quality issues will negatively impact how much money I on spend on the hobby going forward.  Given that this is a money-driven world, I think those statements have at least some value here, even if they are reiterated in all or part.  And the fact that they have been discussed here before, and thus may irritate you or others, while not my intent, doesn't undermine the usefulness of underlining the point to the manufacturers that yes, there are some of us out here who are less than thrilled with the current failure rate of these products.

Please don't take any of this to you, or to the others, as mean spirited or insulting.  I value the people who contribute here regularly.  But at the same time if you want to essentially scold an adult publicly, expect a response.

Best regards.

So very, very true, Lee!

Would it be nice if our toy trains were all made in the U.S.?  Yes, that would be nice.

Is it likely to happen?  Not in the lifetimes of anyone reading these highly repetitive posts.

I didn't take it as mean-spirited, and I wasn't intending to scold anyone.  But I  decided long ago to add a positive "counter-balance" whenever I see threads that could/are devolving into an unreasonably negative perspective on the industry.  People do have problems from time to time and I think it is positive that they report them here.  I also think it is positive to keep them in perspective so I post my thoughts and experience along with those.  MTH and Lionel and to some extent the other players in our hobby industry are doing a pretty providing reasonable quality balanced against cost increases in a world where labor and technology are both moving fast and often not very predictable.  

Interesting how such a topic still gives up such spirited response.

Wonderful to be able to reflect one's perspective and not have some polozia at your door

demanding that you recant your thoughts, isn't it ??

Who are you talking about (ie Who's business model?)

I am just guessing but I would say the manufactures of the three trains that is causing him problems otherwise he would not have posted.

I wonder how many of these "defective" trains were rushed out the door in time for Christmas and how many were produced in a later batch when the need to rush them out isn't as great?  I don't see as many complaints, say around April, as I do in January.  But then again it could be most purchases are made during Christmas and not in April.

I never get any trains at Christmas as a rule and have not had any of the problems I see folks say they have.  Maybe I'm lucky or maybe there's something to what I said above.

Exactly.

We have a hard time filling jobs in the factory where I work, both for skilled and unskilled.

Factory work isn't "sexy."

Rusty

I went to a trade show yesterday at the Javits Center in NYC.  It was the international air conditioning and heating exposition.   At least 40% to 50% of the booths were Chinese manufactures, either for the air conditioners themselves or for the components used to manufacture the air conditioners.  Whenever I mentioned we made our air conditioners in New Jersey, it was obvious we were the exception to the rule.  Point is, mass produced commodity type  products made in the USA is dead, including model trains.

BTW, I have been in the air conditioning industry for over 40 years and have witnessed the changes to the manufacturing philosophy.  The previous company I worked for, Electrolux (Frigidaire), made room air conditioners in Edison NJ. Ten years ago production was shut down, and moved to China.  1800 people put out of work including me.

Even if we took the cost of labor out of our manufactured price, the Chinese product was still less expensive.

Obviously you are unaware of the Quality in Progress methods that lead to zero defects. The success story of Harley Davidson was the input from workers that changed the manufacturing process and turned the company around. But just one example in the 1980's

Try screwing this one in.  Ha ha.

I doubt the serious defect rates for most of these imported trains is more than about 5% which is the defect rate reported for almost all consumer products in national surveys.  Sometimes you get lucky (I'm about 1-2% defects for trains) and sometimes you get unlucky (100% as mentioned above).  It is my impression that trains shipped one more time (online and mail order) have a higher failure rate, not surprising given the way packages are treated.  Almost all my purchases are from a dealer who deals with manufacturers directly rather than distributors.  That may give me an edge in terms of success rate.  One less chance for the package to be drop kicked off the back of a truck  .

Two questions:

Are these trains in warranty?  (Purchased over the "holidays," I would think they are.)

Are the manufacturers making them right?

It seems odd to me that 100% of the trains you bought are defective.

Pete