Modifying a tender on a Lioncheif locomotive - Updated 10/28 Paint Stripping

How are you planning to stretch the metal chassis that the trucks mount to?

aussteve posted:

How are you planning to stretch the metal chassis that the trucks mount to?

I would have to make a new one

Jdevleerjr posted:

aussteve posted:

How are you planning to stretch the metal chassis that the trucks mount to?

I would have to make a new one

Typically, this sort of "expansion/contraction" frame modification of tenders or diesel and electric locos is done by slicing the existing frame - usually soft  steel sheet metal - at an appropriate/convenient location, re-joining the pieces using overlapping flat brass (sheet or strips; see K&S Metals) of a similar thickness or a bit thicker, joined to the now end-pieces with epoxy and/or bolts/screws. This preserves some/all of your factory mounting points and design, useful if you are going to use the lengthened factory shell.

Typically, join the pieces with the epoxy, let it cure, then drill a hole on each end through the brass and steel, and put a bolt/nut through them. The epoxy will probably do anyway, but a belt and suspenders is another way to go. 

D500 posted:

Jdevleerjr posted:

aussteve posted:

How are you planning to stretch the metal chassis that the trucks mount to?

I would have to make a new one

Typically, this sort of "expansion/contraction" frame modification of tenders or diesel and electric locos is done by slicing the existing frame - usually soft  steel sheet metal - at an appropriate/convenient location, re-joining the pieces using overlapping flat brass (sheet or strips; see K&S Metals) of a similar thickness or a bit thicker, joined to the now end-pieces with epoxy and/or bolts/screws. This preserves some/all of your factory mounting points and design, useful if you are going to use the lengthened factory shell.

Typically, join the pieces with the epoxy, let it cure, then drill a hole on each end through the brass and steel, and put a bolt/nut through them. The epoxy will probably do anyway, but a belt and suspenders is another way to go. 

Have you ever done this type of modification before?  

I'm thinking you want the end result to look kinda like this, with six-wheel trucks. If you like the large size of the coal bunker on the original tender, the yellow line shows how I would splice the add-on tender after I chopped off the coal bunker and made a new rear deck. I may have gone overboard on the length, but the tender in your prototype pic does look to be almost as long as the loco.  

I've shortened a tender frame as D500 describes, and it is solid.  Didn't even use bolts or screws - JB Weld is your friend.

FWIW, while I love JB-Weld, I'd have a couple of screws or rivets in the mix as well.  Cool idea, looking forward to how it comes out.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, while I love JB-Weld, I'd have a couple of screws or rivets in the mix as well.  Cool idea, looking forward to how it comes out.

I am thinking of a different way of doing this.  

I  found I can purchase an extra tender shell pretty cheap.  I will then cut the back end off my current tender, and extend it with the back half off the other tender.  

What would be a good way of cutting the plastic?  Dremmel?   Razor saw?

Cutting -- Score with a hobby knife and finish with a razor saw.  Another method I have had success with is to cut with a band saw; use a very fine tooth blade at the slowest speed possible. A high speed saw or a Dremel will melt the plastic - don't even consider them.

A High speed cutter will melt the plastic as you cut, but unless it is really thick material it will work. You will just have to break off the excess flash,that forms on the edges and be,careful the soft,plastic,doesn't,grab the plastic and hop the tool. 

  A hack saw by hand is likely the quickest and easiest way. An exacto saw may have trouble with any thickness over about 1/4" via kerf gap is so thin they are prone to closing slightly and grabbing the blade.

  The wider cut of a hacksaw won't matter as your extending it anyhow. Heat/flame will darken any lightening of color from working the plastic if that bugs you.

   JB Weld doesn't always stick to plastics well, especially if it has a smooth, or oily texture.  Sanding won't help much if that is the,case.( Wrapping, trapping areas in a dovetail fashion with a thick gloppy layer is the unsightly but effective work around if hidden)

  I would use a wide flat metal bar for firming up the frame and the added weight, machine screws and JBW or other epoxy...maybe wood ... Radio Shacks epoxy was pricy, small tubes, and my old go to when others wouldn't stick I wish I had stocked up. Flexed though, a better glue than filler.)

Wood will flex under a heavy train if thin. It bows it's belly in a droop. The frame here was bent in half, likely by the "Ebay Devil Child' with a bat" (from a thread yesterday) as there was also shattered 6464, broken porch RioG crummy, the jagged side of an SP caboose, and this tender in the same box. The tender was missing a whole firemans front side of the tank. I forget if this was a 6464 frame or a caboose's.

Anyhow, crude, but this was all garbage . The wood, a thick vaneer,flexed under load and it was a light tender, so a weight slug firmed up the center. (landline phone or HO weight?).  

JB Weld did stick here. The right batch is a near perfect color match to Lionel plastic ( the shade can vary by pigment and your mix) This whole corner is 2-3 layers of JBW molded with Saran wrap and sculpting tools, including the steps and riser to the tread. 

If it was a straight cut, I'd use a bandsaw at low speed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If it was a straight cut, I'd use a bandsaw at low speed.

I wish I had one.   Gonna have to be a razor saw I think

Jdevleerjr posted:

What would be a good way of cutting the plastic?  Dremmel?   Razor saw?

For plastic I use use this...exclusively!
It might take a little more time, but, the results are worth it. If you want a fine cut, you will use one too! 

I would use a dremel and cut it larger than your marks. If you have a belt type sander you should be able to square it off. 

Cutting it right on the mark will still lead to sanding and may require more fill for the seem and loosing outside shell detail.

I would also mark it by paying attention to the rivets on the tender to have equal distance between each end

Have fun!

I forgot to mention, get a decent metal straight edge (or even a square) to start your cut until the kerf gets deep enough to guide the saw itself.
Something like this one. I also like the ones with a cork backing to protect and help keep the straight edge from slipping as you start.

Forget that Dremel stuff, it's just an accident waiting to happen, you'll see when it goes buzzing across the part you want to save.

  I meant a dremel for cutting the frame.  I'd use a band saw or exacto saw then grind and or file for the body joint following the above suggestion for putting the seam near a vertical rivet line so if it shows at all, it looks like a prototype's seam.

There is a bandsaw in Taylor you can use ..oh, crap... but I need to check that I have another fine tooth blade, I had one snap and didn't see another fine one that day... but the place is a shambles too so I might have more that I didn't see yet. I'll look tonight if you're interested in a drive sometime.

Thanks for all the help guys!  I ordered a second tender shell on ebay yesterday.  I also will be stopping by my local hobby shop today to get a xacto razor saw and a nice metal straight edge along with some other supplies.

What kind of glue would you recommend to join the plastic, normal Testors modeling glue or something else?

Adriatic posted:

There is a bandsaw in Taylor you can use ..oh, crap... but I need to check that I have another fine tooth blade, I had one snap and didn't see another fine one that day... but the place is a shambles too so I might have more that I didn't see yet. I'll look tonight if you're interested in a drive sometime.

 

Adriatic,

I might take you up on that, I could even possibly purchase the fine tooth blade.  Let me see how it goes with the xacto saw 1st. 

Jim

Rather than an Xacto saw, I would recommend a wide blade fine toothed Zona saw for this. As to an adhesive my choice would be Loctite 380 (only available at industrial supply houses like Granger's). Think about reinforcing the interior of the seams with either strips of 040" plastic or (ideally) thin strips of brass. An alternative adhesive could be professional grade Liquid Nails carefully applied with a toothpick. 

There could be an advantage in seaming in the center of a flat if you want to use body filler. Rivets are a pain to sand near and blocking flat you can use circles and all linear motion a bit more easily.

I also thought about how I added length to a halved GG1. I made a curved backer by running boiling water across two styrene sheets for a few seconds to get a hot line to curve and then clamping them down into the  metalshell with project spring clips till cooled. Then glued the two sheets together to built up thickness and to form a ply bond using the glue's stiffness. Two more sheets got bent to equal the metal's thickness then formed the rear shell, bent over the backer as a mold. A three piece slip fit. It allowed great seam alignments. But I still filled and blocked it real flat, worked the roof curve till it blended, gutter and roof lines built of JBW, filler & styrene, etc. 

I may have to repost for a pic. but this turned out strong as heck and may be useful to see.

I'm up in the air on one glue over another.   I've never had model glue work out well on a Lionel though that perception has some Bakelite experience mixed in..   I have a couple of old mpc cabooses someone did a sloppy number on with it; drips, smears, and the whole 9 yards. It worked on the DTI, but not on the cheapo Rio Gr. FRAME, the body took the glue. 

I do like a chemical weld. I start with liquid cement to test for a softening, going to an epoxy next if needed. So I'd at least check to see if glue melts some shavings or not. Liquid glue vs goo-tube spoiled me like that. I HAVE been plesantly surprised at the weld ability of a new blue tube of Testors non-toxic goo too though. I don't recall it working so well years ago.  Anyhow if I don't see a good weld surface starting I move to JB weld (hard) or Devcon (rubbery) mostly. 

I used all of the above on the G

I 'll have to dig for older shots later and take one of the inside now. The gutter line reveals the plastic/metal seam. Hobby stock styrene would have made a better gutter and left "n frame" for sure (whatever those things are?) , but the camera is cruel too.

the tape is over a headlight lens. This was dropped on the palstic end with the chassis attached... and bounced

Made a few purchases over the last few days, including a razor saw.  Surgery on the tender starts tomorrow.  

Project has started.  I received my extra tender shell the other day  I chopped off the back half tonight.  I used a razor saw and it worked great.  Lines were pretty straight.  

I think I will have to completely replace the tender deck so I didn't pay too much attention while cutting though the water hatch.  

Tomorrow I will practice cutting out the coal load and the "shelf" behind the coal load on the extra tender.  

good luck!  I am too late, but if you run into trouble there is a "long" Pennsy M1A tender that could be useful?

Drawing the saw till you have scored along the whole cut line wanted, then working it deep enough until the cut can act as a guide so you can change to an angled cut is my favorite "speed cut" method. Leave just enough to file on for better edges. The saws have great control, but a slight learning curve IMO.

   Having a few different depths of blades  and tooth counts both can really help with binding, speed and straight cut lines as the deep blades flex easier, shallow blades are stiffer. 

I keep 6 blades, three depths, fine and coarse.  They last forever it seems. I also have dremeled off the #2 tooth of a med. depth coarse cut blade to form a scoring tooth and deeper pocket; leaving a deeper tooth to score with, but level to the others. I stole the idea from a Japanese woodworker I'd met. (they use mostly pull saws vs push cut in thier carpentry )

Drawing across your thumb draws blood... mind you they are razor saws      ...and I am wearing a band-aid today as my saw bit slightly me last night   

It wouldn't have but I trimmed the nail just hours before that too. The nail stopped it from going very deep 

Don't forget that you can find replacement rivets at Archer Fine Transfers.

There is a molded in ladder on the back of the tender that I ant to remove?   Any suggestions on the best way?

I am not sure on this but can you use a dremel with a grinding bit taking your time and going slowly to take the molded ladder off................Paul

I didn't see anyone reply to your answer on what type of glue to use. Since these shells are made out of ABS plastic, I would recommend ABS glue from your local store. Use as little as you can when gluing the two haves together. (Makes for a neater job) Once this is completely dry, The coat the inside of the tender shell with multiple coats of glue allowing it to build up adding strength to the shell. Be mindful that the chassis still needs to go on the inside the chassis. Your cuts need to be a seamless as possible to minimize your sanding.

Good Luck.

paul 2 posted:

I am not sure on this but can you use a dremel with a grinding bit taking your time and going slowly to take the molded ladder off................Paul

What type of grinding bit?   Slow RPM's?

I have never ground down a tender. I would start off with slow rpms using a tapered stone grinding bit. I am also assuming die cast metal is on the softer side of metals.........Paul

Seeing the tender is plastic, I would use a chisel blade exacto knife with the beveled edge up against the tender. Should slice it right off!

I am no expert here. Would it not be easier to buy the tender frame and shell for Pere' tender from lionel parts dept, and move electronics?

Joe Gozzo

I'm not a big fan of a Dremel anywhere NEAR plastic that you plan on being part of a finished surface. One slip and you've ruined your project. I'd start with a pack of narrow Xacto chisel blades and SLOWLY remove the material a little bit at a time; these blades can dull quickly so change often - sharp is the key here. When I was close to the actual back of the tender, I'd use sanding sticks (coarse, medium, then fine) to finish it. If they're not available use emery boards and finish with 600 and then 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper (available at ACE or NAPA).

As to an adhesive; As i said before, get a small tube of Loctite 380 - either order it from Granger's (if you have one nearby) or online - about $7. Working time 90 sec., set time 1 hour, permanent set 24 hours. Keeps a few years in the refrigerator. I'd then reinforce the inside of the shell from above the frame upwards with 1/2" or 3/4" wide strips of sheet brass (again with Loctite 380 or pro grade construction adhesive.)

modeltrainsparts posted:

I'm not a big fan of a Dremel anywhere NEAR plastic that you plan on being part of a finished surface. One slip and you've ruined your project. I'd start with a pack of narrow Xacto chisel blades and SLOWLY remove the material a little bit at a time; these blades can dull quickly so change often - sharp is the key here. When I was close to the actual back of the tender, I'd use sanding sticks (coarse, medium, then fine) to finish it. If they're not available use emery boards and finish with 600 and then 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper (available at ACE or NAPA).

What he said!!!
And this is nothing against Dremel, it is just using the proper tool for the job!
As for the ladder removal, a good side cutter that will cut flush will help with mass removal, then you can use the chisel X-Acto to finish it off. 

I went to P&D Hobbies today and got some Plasticstruct.   I asked the best way to cut it and it was suggested to use a hot blade.   It looked like ax X-Acto knife at the end of a soldering iron.    I didnt pick it up yet, but wanted to know your opnion on using it?   I work close by and can pick it up tomorrow.  

I also got some Loctite 380.    

Wife and kids will be up north all weekend, and I have to work.  But it gives me a lot of time to work on this project while they are gone.  

I still say a plain old chisel exacto knife with the beveled side flat against the end of the tender will slice it right off. Heat is going to possibly melt it and is unnecessary.

I agree with what TRAIN NUT said. The heat could distort the plastic or melt away more then you wanted too. ....Paul