MORE DCS Yard Issues

When I upgraded my layout to DCS some 15 years ago, I had a poor signal in one "loop/power district/TIU channel."  All of my layout, both mainlines and blocks, is divided into toggled blocks.  I found that, even with no trains on tracks save a loco on mainline, turning toggles off for a few (not all) of the blocks restored the signal.  I put 18-volt bulbs across the track ends of those siding, and went to all 10s all the time.

So I suggest disconnecting portions of the new addition, one at a time, and see if signal strength is affected.

Check all connections between modules, including common.  Are you using 14-gauge stranded?

A wooden box over tracks wouldn't affect signals.

Each stub track does have its own toggle switch. I have not tried the "magic lights", went straight to the DCS filters.

The layout is wired w/ 14 ga wire.

NOT good news about the box....  I was hoping that I was on to something.

How many engines are parked on each track? other things on that drawing power? You can't just pile on more track and engines onto a TIU without wiring and power considerations.

Try dividing these tracks into blocks if you are drawing down the power too much. In other words, I wouldn't park more than three or four engines on a track section. Still having switches to kill the power on blocks and sections that are not being used.

 It's not just the signal that goes down, it can be the power which causes problems. It's hard to post concrete solutions when there so many things on each layout that are different. Good wiring techniques and proper power supplied to the tracks goes a long way. (I have always found that poor signal followed poor power.)

 Then, there are certain engines that are more sensitive. Some are because of the release dates before things were changed in the wiring. Some are from the actual soundsets or older DCS version.

 Most of the time for me, it's because of power drops in sections of the layout that point out weak areas in power distribution. Where the signal suffers usually points to power problems. Can be from bad track joints, poor connections, too much power draw, etc.

With the version L TIUs, you shouldn't need to have filters or bulbs. That doesn't mean that each of the TIU channel's signal generator can be over taxed with tons of track length and multiple dozens of engines. Barry's books have good tips on the amounts of tracks, track joints, and number of engines to expect a TIU channel to handle.

 It sounds like you need at least a separate TIU in super mode, just for your yard. Still should be the latest DCS version in each (6.1 currently).

Try disconnecting the new added on track lengths electrically and see if you still have good signal. Run signal tests regularly.

Don't park TMCC/Legacy engines and equipment (anything with caps and no chokes) in these TIU channel sections.

Don't draw power for accessories from the power to these tracks.

Run a conventional engine(s) around the layout and watch for slowing or jerky movement to help point out where power dips are occurring. In other words test for power under loads, not just checked with a meter on track that is not under a load.

Sectional module layouts need good power connectors to carry the power and signal without loss. Even wires tightened with wire nuts are better than loose worn out slip connectors.

Switches to tracks can wear out or be burned electrically when overtaxed from shorts and/or overloads. They can work at first and then wear out without warning. 

 Larger layouts that are broken down and moved need way more attention than a layout built stationary and not torn down. Add to that the number of derails and the amount of use for the extended hours of running at each show, I would guess that normal wear and tear multiplies by a big factor.

Gilly@N&W posted:

Each stub track does have its own toggle switch. I have not tried the "magic lights", went straight to the DCS filters.

The layout is wired w/ 14 ga wire.

NOT good news about the box....  I was hoping that I was on to something.

Try a bulb instead of the filters.... Maybe  disconnect the yard tracks and add  them back one at a time, verifying the signal with a track signal test..... If you're using terminal blocks  there's no need to disconnect the common (black tiu output)  just the hot red.    Yep I  have and have tried the filters...

Gilly,

1) Covering the two mainlines and a passing siding with an 8' x 4' 11" BOX (3/4 thick wood). True/false, would/could this impact DCS operation?

Makes no difference whatsoever.

2) I constructed 8 DCS filters per the Susan Deets drawing. We have a Rev L TIU. Should they work, or am I wasting my time?

IMO, the filters or light bulbs on a Rev. L are typically a waste of time when using a Rev. L TIU and may actually cause DCS signal degradation. However, I would suggest that possibly placing 18 volt bulbs across the ends of sidings (I use Lionel #260 bumpers), as RJR suggests, may help.

3) The filters I built have caused their own problems. Common to one leg of the capacitor. The other leg of the capacitor soldered to on leg of the resistor. The other leg of the resistor soldered to the hot. Connect this to the terminal strip for the track, shorts out that channel of the Z4000.  They are Mylar capacitors, so I'm 99% sure it isn't a polarity problem. Component specs are per her document.

First, as I recall the filter spec calls for the filters to be installed in pairs, one at the TIU output channel and the other at "the farthest point on the layout". However, these filters were, I believe, conceived to be used with buss-wired layouts.

Any ideas?

Since things went South directly after the yard enlargement, I would suspect the following:

• A defect in the wiring of the new sections.
• Siding track blocks are now too long or have too many joins.
• There are now more engines parked on a siding than siding power can accommodate.
• There are now more track blocks on a single TIU channel than can be supported.
• You have a TMCC or Legacy engine powered up on a siding that's causing DCS signal degradation.

The DCS Companion 3rd Edition has a lot more discussion of DCS signal issues, their causes and how they may best be resolved.

This and a whole lot more about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

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yeah .... um. what they said!

Gilly,

   Go back and try the magic lights with your filters, I always had good luck when I used them.  You may need to get rid of the filters all together, and just use the magic lights.  Don't give up just yet the magic lights can work wonders some times.  They did on my big multi level layout, and I used no filters what so ever.

Good luck,

PCRR/Dave 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

 

Since things went South directly after the yard enlargement, I would suspect the following:

• A defect in the wiring of the new sections.

---

Sorry for the confusion. The yard is unchanged. It was main layout that got expanded, not the Yard. That is one of the basis for my frustration. Six foot was added to the mainline, so now the yard is junk.

Well, at least consistent confirmation that the BOX isn't the problem. And I can stop messing with filters. I'll try some lighted bumpers in the yard. FWIW it's worth, the layout is bus wired.

Rather than roasting marshmallows,

• I may focus on rewiring the new mainline expansion modules 
• Work to break the entire layout into blocks. Maybe one TIU channel per side or end.
• Follow NCT's lead and wire a dedicated transformer and TIU for the yard.

The easier solution remains disposing of the yard, but I'm beginning to suspect that the DCS issues would remain. We do have the ability to "switch off" the yard. It was done for setups w/o the yard. I think what I'm going to do is just turn off the yard first.

If you have any spare tiu channels take advantage of them, each one has  it's own signal generator... maybe it's time for another tiu?

Is the yard currently wired into the same TIU and transformer as the entire layout? You may just be reaching/exceeding the max length of track per channel. 

We (NCT) have found that breaking yard power from the rest of the layout helps get things started. Insulate the yard from the layout and use another TIU and transformer to power the yard. With a Z4K, I'd probably split the yard over 2 TIU channels and use one handle for tracks 1-4 and the other for 5-8. Keeping the track length as short as possible, then turning off all the unused tracks will keep the signal over the shortest length of track you need. 

Yes, the yard is on the same TIU as the rest of the layout.

Great feedback guys, thank you. We do have a "Spare"TIU. Very do-able to separate the yard into two TIU channels with minimal wiring changes.

I was about to spit nails in frustration last night. You've collectively pulled me back.

Gilly,

   Definitely try adding another TIU, I thought you hand broken your big layout down using 3 different TIU's.  It is a lot easier to clean up problems using this kind of engineering format.  You may still need the magic lights however.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gilly,

    I thought you hand broken your big layout down using 3 different TIU's.

PCRR/Dave

 

Nope just one TIU w/ two fixed channels. One channel for the outside loop, one channel for the inside loop.

Looks like that may need to change.

Don't forget the var channels can be set to fixed mode and function just like fixed 1 & 2...

Menu/System/ DCS set up/..... lots of options.   The FXD soft-key toggles the var channel from var  to fixed back to var with each press.   However the remote let's you know what mode you've selected and the setting will stick for next power up.

I 'm not sure whether you were using the var channels   If so the second tiu and super  mode is certainly a good option.

Gilly,

work to break the entire layout into blocks. Maybe one TIU channel per side or end.

There are no track blocks in the layout?

Outer mainline is one buss, inner mainline is the other. Looks like we've got some wiring to do.

is the mainline broken electrically in at least one spot???

This one works great; no problems - switch it with DCS and TMCC switchers, some times at the same time.  TIUs and TMCC brick are buried under it.

Engineer-Joe posted:

is the mainline broken electrically in at least one spot???

Yes. At one end of the Geezer Gorge walk-thru lift bridge.

Consider disconnecting the center rail wires at you terminal block, then reconnecting them one at a time. I found that by adding one block section too many to a TIU channel, caused huge signal strength problems.

Test the signal strength one block at a time, then add (reconnecting) another block, until you notice the signal strength gets worse. That is the point where there is a wiring problem with a particular block, or the point where you one block too many on the same TIU channel. I try to keep only 8-10 blocks on a single TIU channel.

good luck: JK

Gilly,

   Break your layout down into blocks, not more than 10 - 12 Track joins per block, add another TIU and your problems will probably all clear up.  It's not the length of the track so much, as the number of track joins that degrade DCS signal strength.    Joe K gives good advise always test your blocks as you build.

PCRR/Dave