MPC Era Lionel Trains?

KOOLjock1 posted:

That picture of the upside down railing on the Obs has bothered me since I was 15!

Jon  

Jon, get a grip.....LOL

I thinned down my collection but retained all my Postwar Lionel and MPC.  My MPC engines consists of the NYC Hudson, Southern Pacific FM, Virginian rectifier, Alaska NW2, and the Rio Grande Service station set. I have never had any issues with these engines and I love the simplicity and ease of maintenance and repair.

rjsmithindy posted:

tncentrr posted:

JBUETTNER,

The Chessie Steam Special set should be at the top of anyone's MPC "must have" list. I bought mine new 40 years ago. I still treasure it to this day.

I don’t disagree but the Blue Comet has some Lionel legacy that’s hard to beat. I still have both.

Another "blue beauty" was the scarce Wabash Fallen Flags passenger set.

Another huge achievement of the MPC era - the Disney set. A real crowd pleaser. Stunning and unsurpassed graphics and colors. 

breezinup posted:

rjsmithindy posted:

I don’t disagree but the Blue Comet has some Lionel legacy that’s hard to beat. I still have both.

Another "blue beauty" was the scarce Wabash Fallen Flags passenger set.

Both great sets for their time and continue to look fantastic even now!

Has Lionel ever produced a good can motored chassis with sound for this tooling?

I've recently acquired the Norfolk & Western set, the SP 4449 set and the Alton Limited. 

More or less new in box. I really like them. I've always been a tinplate guy but I just can't stop picking up some of the nicer MPC era stuff.

I'd really like to add some more of it to my collection. I knew I was in trouble when I bypassed the prewar section and went straight to the MPC section at my local train shop! 

I'm hoping to get that Wabash set soon.

Wow this thread is an oldie!  @BobbyD the LionChief Plus 4-6-2 Pacific is a good runner with can motor and sound.  The domes and front-end details of the boiler casting are pretty similar to the Wabash (which itself was derived from the postwar 2055.)  You could probably create a "10-footer" clone with a good custom paint job.  In the special case of your 672, you would also have to figure out how to transplant the smoke deflectors.  The C&O 8603 or Santa Fe 8900 from FARR set #1 would be very easy to fake.

I've been hinting to Lionel for a while that they should make an "MPC Celebration Series" targeted to us boomers and Gen-Xers who grew up with MPC.  With the LionChief Pacific and 726-style Berk they have decent stand-ins for some of the most iconic sets.  I would love to see a LionChief Plus 726 in Chessie paint!!  They also have Geeps and Legacy F3s with postwar styling as used on the Neil Young Signature Line. 

To my eyes, the LionChief Hudson boiler is noticeably different from the 8600 (originally 2046), so I'm not sure what they would use to recreate the Crescent, the Blue Comet, or the Alton Limited.  Still I think this is very doable and a potential moneymaker, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it at some point.

@Ted S posted:

...Hudson boiler is noticeably different from the 8600 (originally 2046)...

Derived from the 726... which was  was originally tooled for the 226E...

Very true Rob.  Not exactly sure of the mounting points, but perhaps they could bolt the 6-drivered chassis from the LionChief Pacific into the "new" 726 boiler.  The circle of life repeats itself!

Ted S, I've been having a lot of fun getting into the MPC stuff and felt this was a good place to talk about it. No need to make a new post when one already exists. 

I'm just glad the MPC stuff is getting the love it deserves. Like many things it had to deal with an unfair bias for a bit.

I still enjoy my Marx and my Prewar Lionel but lately the MPC stuff is holding my attention. 

My entire collection is primarily MPC/Fundimensions. It all runs well and overall is as simple to repair as postwar Lionel. In its early years MPC faced an uphill climb on two counts -- first, Lionel had already been aggressively cutting costs and cutting back on quality in its final years. Second, times were moving on and the postwar materials and production methods had to at least partially change.

So there was a ramp-up period of both bringing back postwar engineering quality and adapting to more modern production realities. That's why there were some false starts with Delrin gear drives and early traction tire use. Today, those are solved problems and we tend to take them for granted, but the realities of those had to be worked out "the hard way" in the early years of MPC. By the late 1970's and early 1980's, MPC (now Fundimensions) was able to produce trains on par with postwar Lionel, but with more modern materials and with paintwork that was beyond what was possible in the postwar era.

If there was one manufacturing process used in the MPC/Fundimensions era that irked me, it was the use of an adhesive to connect wiring to the copper "wiper" pickups on trucks for the outer rail return side of electrical circuits. No solder -- the wire was held to the copper strip with a clear adhesive. It would either come loose, or it would get pulled into the braided wire by capillary action and harden, making the connection too stiff so the wire would break. It got to be routine for me to just re-work those connections with proper solder right out of the box. Somewhere along the way, I'm pretty sure solder returned, but not until I'd re-worked an entire Blue Comet and Chicago and Alton set, most Sound of Steam tenders, plus numerous cabooses. And then the problem with any factory-soldered connections on rolling stock items was all-too-frequent improper "cold" solder joint that would still fail. Soldering on locomotives' e-units and motors was generally fine. It was always the rolling stock that routinely had electrical quality control issues.

I am a a "Johnny come lately" on this MPC question, but MAYBE I have some perspective. 

Three years ago I started in the O gauge hobby after HO, intending to only buy and run postwar stuff.  So- I began w/ a 2055 then a 2026 steamer, 624 diesel switcher etc- all from the 1949- 55 period.  All run great, and I was blown away that a TOY, built in probably the highest-cost labor market, in the USA, could be that good- 70 years later.

Then wanting some PRR F7s, I bought an MPC-era set, and they were different  - but still great.  Then I tried Lion Chief Plus diesels and a steam engine- again, great.  Finally, lately I have been buying some new Legacy (F7 AA Set plus/ the Super Bass) , but used TMCC stuff.

Conclusions??  General Mills/ MPC fought the fight for 16 years, I am sure never making money on trains through the period.  That's a LONG time in corporate America, if you lose money more often than you make money.  They tried retailing- Lionel KiddieCity - re-introduced postwar product, tried producing in Mexico (but wisely bailed out fast when the quality could not be there), tried everything they could.  Kudos to them- without MPC, no Lionel today.  Probably no O Gauge at all, today.

The came Richard P. Kughn, another reason why Lionel has survived.  Under his leadership TMCC was developed (with Neal Young etc,)  and the seeds of Legacy were sown.  Did Kughn make money?  We'll never know, but, maybe not. 

Out of Lionel by way of Weaver came Mike Wolf and MTH.  His innovation forced the market to go toward scale- attracting many of us HO guys with sore eyes.  We and Lionel all gained from the move.  Now, Lionel is in business, doing what they have to to make money in the current environment of plastic, Made in China, and Built to Order- all necessary to keep the doors open.

We should all feel thankful we are able to enjoy the hobby, due to a series of lucky strokes mixed with some genius.  Have fun- run your trains!!

A year ago I bought a Pennsylvania F3 Tuscan A-A essentially new for 90 bucks and a Milwaukee Road A for 45. I would do that again tomorrow.

@Ted S posted:

Very true Rob.  Not exactly sure of the mounting points, but perhaps they could bolt the 6-drivered chassis from the LionChief Pacific into the "new" 726 boiler.  The circle of life repeats itself!

Exactly. The Pacific boiler is close to the postwar small Hudson one and would work fine as a LC+ Hudson. The one they use now is attractive but undersized. 

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, RamblerDon, which I find very interesting. Also, thanks Eric and Mike for your contributions, including providing a brief history of Lionel since the Postwar era.

I have lots of Postwar, love the quality of Postwar trains from 1949 through 1955, a few nice Lionel items made in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and a lot of modern, especially MTH Railking, and LC+.

I have nothing from the MPC era, steered away from it thinking, perhaps erroneously, that it was inferior. I will have more of an open mind about it now.

Arnold

Most of my post-war trains were given to me as gifts from my parents. I started buying my own trains in college around 1973 in the MPC era and was amazed at the “improvements” over post-war!!! The (then) amazing mighty sound of steam... steam engines that all weren’t black... and very colorful freight cars. I bought quite a bit of MPC, and loved it - I really looked forward to each new catalog. With the advent of more scale offerings and command control, my MPC fell out of favor, and a lot of it I have gifted to new homes were they are enjoying a second life (including the SP Daylight and NKP Berkshire). I have kept and display several of my favorite MPC acquisitions… the Pennsylvania Tuscan F3 ABA and the 15” rib sided aluminum passenger cars, the New York Central F3 ABA and the 15” smooth side passenger cars, my first GG-1 (the Tuscan 5-stripe 8753), and the NYC 783 Hudson. I also have the gray NYC 785 Hudson, but I think that might have been post MPC. I have read a number of comments that MPC engines are under-powered, but both F3’s and the GG-1had no problem pulling their full consist of the aluminum cars.

The "underpowered" reputation came primarily from the starter train set small steamers. Outside of some early efforts which could be corrected in a repair shop, most anything derived from genuine postwar lineage tended to be fine. So the dual-motor F3s, the GG1's, the small Hudson and Berkshire derivatives, the N&W J and unique to the MPC era J-derived Daylight, the various postwar-derived diesels -- all of them could pull well and held up much like their postwar counterparts.

I too have a great fondness for MPC models having grown up in that era. They are great bargains in today's train market as well.

I have found my MPC locomotives robust and easy to repair. I have avoided the temptation to replace the E-Units with electronics and have learned how to restore the originals to good operating condition.

While I find it nostalgic, my wife is not fond of the "Sound of Steam".

I've been cleaning up my MPC rolling stock lately. Some of them date back to when I was 6 years old. I hadn't seen some of those cars in years, and were very dusty. As I rediscovered them, I remembered the stories behind them. They aren't worth anything, but they're valuable to me. 

@Don Winslow posted:

I too have a great fondness for MPC models having grown up in that era. They are great bargains in today's train market as well.

I have found my MPC locomotives robust and easy to repair. I have avoided the temptation to replace the E-Units with electronics and have learned how to restore the originals to good operating condition.

While I find it nostalgic, my wife is not fond of the "Sound of Steam". 

Wow, Don... those Pennsy GP’s look like the 8357/8358 - if they are, the powered unit was the first MPC engine I bought, probably around 1973 (from Jamesway in New London CT!!!). Picked up the dummy a couple of years later from Trainworld when it opened up on Ave. M in Brooklyn. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

P.S. While the Mighty Sound of Steam was state of the art in the late 70’s, I have to begrudgingly agree with your wife - it hasn’t aged well  

@rjsmithindy posted:

@KOOLjock1 posted:

That picture of the upside down railing on the Obs has bothered me since I was 15!

I remember this thread! I guess I didn't catch the last few replies, and I certainly never noticed the upside railing on the Chessie Observation that Jon pointed out, despite literally wearing out those pages of the 1980 catalog as a kid.

For kicks, I dug out that car, but it looks like someone realized their mistake and corrected the problem.

Now I'm wondering if I should "uncorrect" it.

TRW

I have a SOS engine.  But could not plug it in while the family TV was on KPRC Channel 2 in Houston.  The tender must have put some radio wave interference into the air or AC line, because it tore up reception on 2.  And back in the day, reception on 2 was iffy depending on the weather, and passing traffic.

I know this is hard to believe but I actually like the Sound of Steam. I've dabbled in the newer stuff a bit and I really don't like the over abundance of noises. For me it is just too much. Especially any thing resembling crew chatter.

It might be static but it is the right amount of noise to me. I will say this though. An air whistle beats that electronic whistle any day.

I had a Blue Streak (1973) and the Sound of Steam was crisp and clear.  This loco didn't have a whistle.  Since, I've heard other locos like the Milwaukee with electronic whistle, that didn't sound as crisp.  And the versions made after 1980 or so sound very hoarse and noisy to my ears.  I think if more folks heard the early version they wouldn't be as critical.

@Dominic Mazoch We weren't allowed to run our trains on Sunday afternoon, because they interfered with the TV picture.  So I would watch football with my Dad and grandpop.  I'm an NFL fan to this day!!

Paul-the geeps are indeed numbers #8357/8358-I still have the boxes.

And Don-I'm with you on the Sound of Steam.

Don't forget MPC's "Election" cars. This one features a candidate I believe we'd all agree on!

If I ever find a set of all three at a great price I will pick up the election cars. I think they are neat. I'm shocked no one else has tried offering them since.

@Don Winslow posted:

Don't forget MPC's "Election" cars. This one features a candidate I believe we'd all agree on!

While I never had the election car, my very first set of passenger cars was the MPC brown Pennsy cars - world’s WORST dummy couplers!!! They looked great being pulled by my original post-war 637 steamer. Still have them packed away somewhere in the basement.

@Don Winslow posted:

Don't forget MPC's "Election" cars. This one features a candidate I believe we'd all agree on!

Unless you got hit by a hurricane of the same name!

Lionel MPC..........MADE IN AMERICA!  Need I say more.

@Apples55 posted:

While I never had the election car, my very first set of passenger cars was the MPC brown Pennsy cars - world’s WORST dummy couplers!!! They looked great being pulled by my original post-war 637 steamer. Still have them packed away somewhere in the basement.

They look good behind the PW 675 steamer.  Bet they also look good behind the pair of PRR geeps.  Almost got them except I went with the Amtral F3 ABA.  Figured early Amtrak used almost anything......

On the short hood on the Geeps,there seem to be some vents.  My guess is to vent heat from the motor and light.  But they seem to model the vents for a steam generator.  Very few Geeps had them, but maybe Lionel folowed the EMD "Form follows funtion."

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

I have a SOS engine.  But could not plug it in while the family TV was on KPRC Channel 2 in Houston.  The tender must have put some radio wave interference into the air or AC line, because it tore up reception on 2.  And back in the day, reception on 2 was iffy depending on the weather, and passing traffic.

Even today with HDTV Channel 2 is the most likely one to be impossible to get. 

Were all the Sound Of Steam units the same? 

At least MPC was smart enough to have dummy units for Geeps and U boats!

@Grampstrains posted:

 

did you forget the move to Mexico in 1983?

Last time I checked Mexico,was and is still is part of North America. Thus "Made in America" still applied. 

@Apples55 posted:

...my very first set of passenger cars was the MPC brown Pennsy cars - world’s WORST dummy couplers!!! They looked great being pulled by my original post-war 637 steamer. Still have them packed away somewhere in the basement.

I put together a set of those to pull behind my FARR 6200 version of the Pennsy Turbine... and I upgraded them by replacing all the trucks with the six-wheel versions. 

I do have a technical question for anyone who might know this. I recently picked up my 3rd engine from this era. A C&A Hudson. My issue is the magnetraction is very weak. This loco was brand new in the box when I got it. Were these on the weak side back in the day or is there something I should look at to correct this?

My other locomotives can hang a piece of track off the bottom but not this one.

Just reread these posts and I agree with many of the comments. And many MPC engines ( already mentioned-the GG1s, FM, later F3s, etc.) were reasonable quality and most ran right-out-the-box-so, as many have already said, they were "fun" and rarely anger producing. Also, for us nit-picker collectors, there were some interesting variations among, for example, the 9200 series boxcars and others. So, IMHO, they were a nice follow-up of the holy-grail and bridge into the more modern Lionel. 

Dennis Waldron is an authority on Postwar.  He occasionally posts here on the Forum.  He bought a lot of hardware and documents from the original Lionel factory, including a machine which can supposedly restore magne-traction.  If he's willing to do it, that's the only way I know of.  I'm pretty sure the magnets are embedded in the chassis and are not easily replaceable.

I'm curious, which locos are you comparing it to?  The most similar would be 8600 Empire State, 8702 Southern Crescent, 8801 Blue Comet, and the 8210 Joshua Lionel Cowen Hudson.  I'm guessing that an original postwar 2046 in good condition would probably be stronger.  I've heard some folks say to store your loco on a piece of tubular track because it acts as a "keeper" to preserve the strength of the permanent magnets.  If this has been sitting in its box for 39 years, some of the flux may be lost.

The Berkshires (736 and MPC clones) used a different placement of magnets, and I understand that they have a stronger grip on the rails, especially the last Berk made by MPC, the 8615 L&N / JC Penney, which had extra magnets added.  A good one of those sticks like glue!

Also make sure you are testing all of them with the same piece of track, because the ferrous content in the tinplate rail varied quite a bit over the years.  Again the old 1950s O probably had the highest iron content and best grip.   Honestly the condition of the wheel tread, whether the wheels and axles run "true" or eccentric, etc., probably impacts traction more than the strength of the magnetism.  My $.02.

I am using the same piece of track. I'm comparing it to the J reissue and the SP 4449 that was issued after that.

Perhaps they have more magnets also like the Berks. The J came from the same collection and was also stored in a box for years.

MPC's Milwaukee Special Passenger Train Is probably the longest train made during the MPC era. Between the add on cars the coupon car the campaign car and finally the dining car the train ended up with 11 cars that are listed below.

 9522 American Railway Express & Baggage
 9506 United States Mail Railway Post Office
 9503 City of Chicago
 9500 City of Milwaukee
 9505 City of Seattle
19003 Dining Car
 9504 City of Tacoma
 9501 City of Aberdeen
 9511 City of Minneapolis
 9502 President Washington Obs
 9527 F D Roosevelt Presidential Campaign Car
 
I didn't think that the small engine that came with the set could pull all of the cars, but it pulls them quite well.