MTH Battery replacement

BCR's are expensive but, you may never have to replace one again. I highly recommend them!!!!!

@bobnj1 posted:

I need to replace the batteries on 12 of my PS2 engines, what batteries can I use as a replacement. The BRC's are very expensive.

Unless you got them second-hand for a steal your engines themselves were much more expensive than the BCR's.  Don't pay a lot for something and then risk it by nickle-and-diming it to death afterward.

Go with an appropriate rechargeable battery, like MTH 50-1008, i.e., the green one, for $14.00 on the MTH website, or an equivalent, and split the difference.

    See here:  https://mthtrains.com/50-1008

Mike

There's no way I'd spend $14 on the MTH branded battery over the Tenergy Centura batteries.  The Tenergy batteries have performed excellent for me for years.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's no way I'd spend $14 on the MTH branded battery over the Tenergy Centura batteries.  The Tenergy batteries have performed excellent for me for years.

Battery Junction is very reasonable for Tenergy Batteries.

John

@bobnj1 posted:

I need to replace the batteries on 12 of my PS2 engines, what batteries can I use as a replacement. The BRC's are very expensive.

Where are you sourcing them?  From the source (https://www.jandwelectronics.com/pricing), PS2 BCRs are about $20 each, and less if bought in quantity.  IMO, not that much more than a battery and do it once and you're done.

Some resellers sell at a high markup.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Where are you sourcing them?  From the source (https://www.jandwelectronics.com/pricing), PS2 BCRs are about $20 each, and less if bought in quantity.  IMO, not that much more than a battery and do it once and you're done.

Some resellers sell at a high markup.

12 x $20 seems like a lot more money than 12 x $5 I would think.  

How long do the 9V PS2 batteries last?

John

@Craftech posted:

12 x $20 seems like a lot more money than 12 x $5 I would think.

If you've spent $500 on a locomotive the difference between $20 or $14 or $5 for a new battery or BCR to put in it is largely irrelevant.

However once you have that locomotive or a collection of them, if you'd later find that you like the convenience of using a BCR, for instance if you use your locomotive(s) only infrequently and it's hard to keep a battery charged as a result, then sell one in your collection and use the proceeds to help pay for BCR's for the rest.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

If you've spent $500 on a locomotive the difference between $20 or $14 or $5 for a new battery or BCR to put in it is largely irrelevant.

I was commenting on the recommendation of the $14 MTH battery, I agree that the supercap battery replacement is the better way to go if you plan on having the engines long term and/or are storing them for long periods.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was commenting on the recommendation of the $14 MTH battery, I agree that the supercap battery replacement is the better way to go if you plan on having the engines long term and/or are storing them for long periods.

So to make the 5V type you use the same 1.5F  5.5v supercap as the 3v only you use two of them in parallel it looks like.  Is that right?

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

So to make the 5V type you use the same 1.5F  5.5v supercap as the 3v only you use two of them in parallel it looks like.  Is that right?

Thanks,

John

NO, in series!!! NOT parallel.

The charging circuit on the 9V battery, in order to charge a 9V has to be higher than 9V, so let's use 10V as a number. If you apply 10V to 2 5.5V capacitor sets in parallel, you are still only 5.5V rated- but feeding it ~10V= bad things happen.

@Craftech posted:

So to make the 5V type you use the same 1.5F  5.5v supercap as the 3v only you use two of them in parallel it looks like.  Is that right?

Thanks,

John

Like he says, in serial.  Also, the positive end of the series capacitors goes to the small terminal, the negative end goes to the big terminal.  Finally, "in series" means connect the positive of one cap to the negative of the next one, then you have one positive and one negative to connect to the Keystone #68 battery clip.  Some 2" heatshrink and you're done.

@Vernon Barry posted:

NO, in series!!! NOT parallel.

The charging circuit on the 9V battery, in order to charge a 9V has to be higher than 9V, so let's use 10V as a number. If you apply 10V to 2 5.5V capacitor sets in parallel, you are still only 5.5V rated- but feeding it ~10V= bad things happen.

Does the reduced capacitance matter, or is that irrelevant?

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

Does the reduced capacitance matter, or is that irrelevant?

Thanks,

John

It's a known factor, but already calculated in. We need enough power to sustain the electronics for X time period.

1.5F rated caps in series is what J&W uses in the original BCRs so we know that same value works in DIY super capacitor replacements.

Again, yes, we know the resulting system is no longer 1.5F, however, we also know it's plenty for the application.

Even if you have to pay $240 for twelve BCRs, the investment is well worth it. Time and time again in this forum, the advantages of using a BCR--especially on PS1s and PS2s that may sit on a shelf a long time--have been well documented. Fewer clinks, clings, clanks, and other mysterious start up problems of stored MTH PS1/PS2 engines along with fewer headaches and engine repairs are the benefits. The benefit-to-cost ratio of a BCR makes it a great life-of-the-trains investment.

bobnj1, here is a photo tutorial on my website that may be helpful.

That tutorial page needs the following information added.  After you add the BCR or substitute, place a note on the bottom to indicate "BCR added" and "wait one minute" before running.

For 3V supercaps, I just clip the lead off the existing battery and solder it to one of the 1.5F supercaps, job done!

So @gunrunnerjohn the 3 volt vesions of this do they allow to load sound files? The reason I ask when I tried to load PS2 sound files with the 3 volt BCR they failed due to detecting wrong volatage?

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

So @gunrunnerjohn the 3 volt vesions of this do they allow to load sound files? The reason I ask when I tried to load PS2 sound files with the 3 volt BCR they failed due to detecting wrong volatage?

No, no, no. That's not how any of that works.

PS2 5V is the earliest version from 2001ish- roughly 2004 and uses a 9V rechargeable battery. The actual processor and memory logic voltage is 5V - hence the name. More comparison and details in this topic https://ogrforum.com/...-ps2-3-volt-v-5-volt

Then PS2 3V  (using 3V logic) replaced the older 5V and because it's a different system- it takes different sound file encoding. PS2 3V has a roughly 3V (2.4V nominal) battery system but again it's named so because of the actual logic chips 3V bus voltage.

The battery or BCR had nothing to do with it.
At best, battery or BCR type is more of a sign of what system you have.

Again, there are PS2 3V encoded sound files and then there are PS2 5V encoded sound files.

EDIT: again, when you use consumer loader to load a sound file, step 1 of that process is it connects to the board and determines the system capabilities (how much memory, processor type) and then checks the chosen file against that in case you made the wrong choice. Again it detects a mismatch- that file is not intended for your board- it's not about the voltage of the BCR or battery.

@Bruce Brown posted:

Even if you have to pay $240 for twelve BCRs, the investment is well worth it. Time and time again in this forum, the advantages of using a BCR--especially on PS1s and PS2s that may sit on a shelf a long time--have been well documented. Fewer clinks, clings, clanks, and other mysterious start up problems of stored MTH PS1/PS2 engines along with fewer headaches and engine repairs are the benefits. The benefit-to-cost ratio of a BCR makes it a great life-of-the-trains investment.

Bruce, I don't have any 5V PS2 engines, but I do have one 3V PS2.

I bought two 1.5F  5.5V  Supercapacitors from Amazon (because I didn't want to wait for a China shipment) for $8.49 and bought a package from Amazon of 20 JST-PH 2.0mm 2-pin connectors (because I didn't want to use the one on the battery) for $7.99.  (The JST-PH plugs directly into the PCB not the harness)

That came out to $4.65 to make the BCR and it works perfectly.   And that was spending more than I actually had to.

For the OP that needs 12 of the 5V type, if he orders the parts from AliExpress he saves a small fortune making them himself.

John

@Vernon Barry posted:

It's a known factor, but already calculated in. We need enough power to sustain the electronics for X time period.

1.5F rated caps in series is what J&W uses in the original BCRs so we know that same value works in DIY super capacitor replacements.

Again, yes, we know the resulting system is no longer 1.5F, however, we also know it's plenty for the application.

Thanks for the explanation Vernon.

John

@Vernon Barry posted:

No, no, no. That's not how any of that works.

PS2 5V is the earliest version from 2001ish- roughly 2004 and uses a 9V rechargeable battery. The actual processor and memory logic voltage is 5V - hence the name. More comparison and details in this topic https://ogrforum.com/...-ps2-3-volt-v-5-volt

Then PS2 3V  (using 3V logic) replaced the older 5V and because it's a different system- it takes different sound file encoding. PS2 3V has a roughly 3V (2.4V nominal) battery system but again it's named so because of the actual logic chips 3V bus voltage.

The battery or BCR had nothing to do with it.
At best, battery or BCR type is more of a sign of what system you have.

Again, there are PS2 3V encoded sound files and then there are PS2 5V encoded sound files.

EDIT: again, when use consumer loader to load a sound file, step 1 of that process is it connects to the board and determines the system capabilities (how much memory, processor type) and then checks the chosen file against that in case you made the wrong choice. Again it detects a mismatch- that file is not intended for your board- it's not about the voltage of the BCR or battery.

Ok First off I know everything you just explained. I, at one point was an MTH certified technician. Second of all it does have something to do with it the 3 volt BCR registers a higher voltage and sound file load will fail try it and see. You can fix the bcr by adding a zenor diode. I am asking if this version does the same thing.

The program also checks the battery to make sure it has the correct voltage to load the file. The 5v ps2 file will load fine with a standard 5v BCR.

Thank you for all the information, it is much appreciated.

I agree it does not make sense to pay $14 for an MTH battery than has to be replaced when I can get a BCR for a bit under $20. I can get 12 BCR's with the discount for $205. The Tenergy batteries are an interesting idea yo a handicapped senior citizen, 12 batteries would cost $50 including shipping. The BRC makes sense for when my kids sell off my collection and not have to worry about battery problems.

One little issue with the BCR that nobody talks about here.  While it's true that it's life is almost infinite, it can cause the very problem that it's designed to correct.  If you have a fully discharged BCR and fire up one of the problem PS/1 engines for a few seconds and then power down, there's a window where the exact issue of a dying "battery" causes the write to the EEPROM to fail creating the select issue.  As long as you don't have that specific sequence, it should be OK.  Just note they're not a panacea.

I don't have any PS/1 engines, years ago I had 3 switched to the Lionel railsounds  system.

@bobnj1 posted:

Thank you for all the information, it is much appreciated.

I agree it does not make sense to pay $14 for an MTH battery than has to be replaced when I can get a BCR for a bit under $20. I can get 12 BCR's with the discount for $205. The Tenergy batteries are an interesting idea yo a handicapped senior citizen, 12 batteries would cost $50 including shipping. The BRC makes sense for when my kids sell off my collection and not have to worry about battery problems.

Bob,

In re-reading your original post you never actually said whether the 12 PS2 locomotives were all 5V, I think it was assumed by the first person who responded and everyone took it from there.

Are all of them 5V with the 9V type batteries or are some of them 3V with the two AA looking batteries?  Hopefully you didn't order them all before checking.

John

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One little issue with the BCR that nobody talks about here.  While it's true that it's life is almost infinite, it can cause the very problem that it's designed to correct.  If you have a fully discharged BCR and fire up one of the problem PS/1 engines for a few seconds and then power down, there's a window where the exact issue of a dying "battery" causes the write to the EEPROM to fail creating the select issue.  As long as you don't have that specific sequence, it should be OK.  Just note they're not a panacea.

Thanks! I had never heard of this happening before.

@BenLMaggi posted:

Thanks! I had never heard of this happening before.

I've seen it happen, but only one time.  The timing of the power on and off would probably have to be just right to trigger the issue.

No need to repeat what has already been said, but I will. I've replaced the batteries on all my PS2 engines last year with BCRs. I had an authorized MTH technician do the work as well as repack the gear boxes with grease and other maintenance. It feels good knowing I have that reassurance.