I just heard from an informed source that MTH is not releasing a S Gauge catalog till June or July. Has anyone heard this or some other date?
This is real discouraging as they have been pushing a new catalog out for at least 3 years.
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This gives me confidence in my decision to look elsewhere (HO) for new product satisfaction.
Ben
Sounds like the same "kick the can down the road" gibberish they told everyone about the 2016 S-Fest cars.
At one time I was an ardent spokesperson for the wonderful things MTH was going to do for the S scale world when they bought out SHS.
No more.
Their complete lack of attention to our scale has soured me on any hope MTH will produce new S scale product or even revamped SHS product.
I think their focus has been on the DCS APP development for some time now. Too bad a shrinking S scale customer base won't wait around to use it.
Lionel's development of FlyerChief for the S scale line has left MTH in the dust IMO. It's simple and it works.
Maybe MTH will turn things around in the future but I doubt it.
Mark
Still waiting for my 2016 MTH Railroaders Club boxcar. Or reefer. I forget. And they wonder why I didn't renew.
Roundhouse Bill posted:I just heard from an informed source that MTH is not releasing a S Gauge catalog till June or July. Has anyone heard this or some other date?
This is real discouraging as they have been pushing a new catalog out for at least 3 years.
Ah, the old 6 month punt. Must be being done on the same production line as the F3's... 
MTH has effectively squandered SHS's reputation.
At least American Models has sent out a latest products flyer the last few Decembers. The latest highlights the Seaboard set. Other than that there's nothing really new, but they at least maintain some contact with the customers in their file.
Rusty
DITTO!
Sounds like the same "kick the can down the road" gibberish they told everyone about the 2016 S-Fest cars.
At one time I was an ardent spokesperson for the wonderful things MTH was going to do for the S scale world when they bought out SHS.
No more.
Their complete lack of attention to our scale has soured me on any hope MTH will produce new S scale product or even revamped SHS product.
I think their focus has been on the DCS APP development for some time now. Too bad a shrinking S scale customer base won't wait around to use it.
Lionel's development of FlyerChief for the S scale line has left MTH in the dust IMO. It's simple and it works.
Maybe MTH will turn things around in the future but I doubt it.
Mark
Ray
Having met Mike Wolf and company many times during the 90s at the Fort Washington East Coast Modelers show, I realized that when he got a hold of S Helper that it wasn't going anywhere. It was more of a strategic move to block Lionel/Flyer, Fortunately for S, Lionel threw a "Hail Mary" pass with the Berk and Flyerchief and probably saved the scale. To be honest, I don't think even Lionel realized how much demand there could be for good, original product.
After conversations with Dave & Ryan at York, I have a feeling they are beginning to see the potential of S. The February catalog will tell the tale and probably decide the fate of S.
Keep in mind that it usually take a year and a half to two years before we (customers) receive the product, which ties in with the time it took for reruns of the Flyerchief Berk.
Finally, with movement in S, this may tempt Wolf and company to take S seriously, but who knows.
I am also hopeful for American Models, they do some good stuff, but the plastic couplers on four wheel passenger cars is a problem. The easy fix is to offer metal replace couplers (they won't droop). Let's hope they monitor this site.
HAPPY NEW YEAR - S Fans!
I think MTH had also hoped their HO DCS would work in S. When not robust enough the need for new meant additional investments and delay.
Believe it or not, S has been through leaner times than this. There was a time when there was no new Flyer being made, no AM and no SHS.
I'm not sure we can credit FlyerChief Berks and Geeps to "saving" the scale, but they certainly have made things more interesting. And something more interesting is much better than nothing.
After playing with a FlyerChief Geep for a little while, I find it's a very nice system for it's overall ease of operation. The GP7 certainly (and I assume other F/C locomotives) runs better under FlyerChief control than conventional. Even an old curmudgeon like me enjoyed operating it.
The big drawback is one locomotive, one controller. Even with the universal remote, if Lionel were to come out with different locomotives than the GP7 in the same roads, you can't MU them. The only way to MU locomotives is if they are of the same roadname and number.
A second drawback is there isn't (and isn't likely to be) any aftermarket F/C upgrade to other models (like AM) to FlyerChief.
Now, the HO Polar Express was supposedly DCC compatible. If true and if incorporated into the FlyerChief electronics, this could make some inroads for those that like to run multiple locomotives on one train.
Now, (VERY BIG) IF Lionel were to do something like re-release the U33C in FlyerChief with DCC compatibility and optional Scale conversion, they could hit gold (or at least pyrite...
) while MTH still scratches at the ground.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
Why I believe that Flyerchief & Berks saved S is because it brought people like me, who were casual observers from other scales, into the S fold. I have 2 Flyerchief engines and 2 50s DCC updated engines with 2 more Flyerchief on order. How long could S have continued on old stuff from the 50s with small smattering re-released products?
I know alot of people from other scales who are now seriously looking to see what comes next in S, and if they see a trend toward expansion, they will convert to S. The concern (as we all know) is lack of product choices - favorite roads, engines etc. Once the dam of lack of product begins to crack, a flood of new customers is possible. Why? for the reason we all say over and over - S is not too big, not too small, it should be the go to scale.
I am hoping that American Models will offer something new in steam, or maybe work with Lionel to offer a "Flyerchief" option for their engines, Either one would be a boost to S Gauge. Remember Lionel offered TMCC to K-Line and Atlas O back in the late 90s.
I am still hoping someone does a Reading T1 in the future.
I would think if one was looking at S and wondering when the best time to jump in....it would have been in 2012. That catalogue made it seem like the sky was the limit and that Lionel was in a faithful marriage to S. FlyerChief seems more like a very narrowed and limited strike to the S gauge market. Not an overall grand expansion. I’m not knocking it, I like the Berk and the update of the Flyonel tradional tooling. But this fails in grandeur compared to Challengers, Mikados, U33s, ES44s and SD70s. THATS when I felt we were going places!
IF Lionel tools another NEW locomotive to run FC in then maybe Francine is onto something....
Ben
I'm pretty much aware of the abilities and limitations of the"Chief" control by following the 3rail side.
It seems the 3railer's gave been trying to convince Lionel to add more features. "Legacy Lite" if you will.
The folks at Lionel have given no indication of expanding the system.
Rusty
I appreciate what FC has done to the Flyonel product line up and S gauge in general. For me, however, the dawning of TMCC in S-gauge in 2005 and the subsequent introduction of Legacy are what saved the scale for me. Right about that time I was starting to wonder if Gilbert Flyer alone was going to be enough to keep me heavily involved in just "S" for the foreseeable future. Add to that my envy of O gauge having already had TMCC for 10 years and the seemingly limitless variety of engines and rolling stock in HO, and my S-treadfastness was starting to waiver. Since then, however, a variety of TMCC, Legacy, DCC, other-brand conventionally controlled, and conventionally controlled engines that I converted to TMCC have kept me happily specialized in S gauge without interruption. I don't own any FC. It's not that I don't like it or think that it looks like fun. It's just that whenever I get the chance to run my double-header of N&W Mallets, or double-header of LV ES44, or a Challenger, Pacific, SD70, U-boat, Mikado, etc., I go - why bother? To me they collectively represent the pinnacle of S loco's so far.
BTW, I think the ES44's come the closest to "getting it all right" in terms of a truly RTR engine that stays that way. I haven't had to work on mine or send them back (fingers crossed). The Mallets come in at a close 2nd. They're beautifully built. I've only had to enhance their smoke production.
I don't own or plan to own MTH S other than some track to augment the SHS S-trax that I already have. Nothing wrong with it I suppose, just not interested in DCS and I already have an adequate number of SHS engines -- many of which I've converted to TMCC. And some of which I've already sold off.
Now don't get me wrong. All of this would be lost if it weren't for the Gilbert AF that I have and enjoy running. They are the bedrock or foundation of it all that continues to fascinate and please me no end.
Dave
Getting back to MTH. Here's what former SHS I figure hasn't been re-released by MTH yet:
Locomotives: F7A&B, SW1, SW8, SW9, NW2, 2-8-0.
Freight cars: EV Caboose, Twin Open Hopper (Offset Side, Composite, Panel Side, USRA Rib Side,) Twin USRA Hopper w/Cover, 40' Wood Stock Car, 40' Double Sheath Wood Box Car, 40' Outside Braced Wood Box Car, 53' Standard Flat Car, 53' Bulkhead Flat Car, P/S Three Bay Covered Hopper.
So, MTH has a looooong way to go if a new catalog ever shows up. At the current rate it'll probably be another 20 years before the entire former SHS line will have been re-released.
Therefore, I'm not holding my breath for either product or catalog.
Rusty
New bulkheads and a center beam are not on the 53' flat car. You'd need another car for them. I'd rather have no product than inaccurate product.
The problem is, MTH has put out a pretty good S Scale product when they finally do put something out. They even honored the warranty on one of my F3's, even though I was obviously poking around with the wiring.
But, even the most staunch supporters of MTH's acquisition of the SHS line have just about given up. As Mark indicated: "Have money, will spend" doesn't seem to carry any weight with MTH with regards to S.
The last "new" S product from MTH was the piggy-back car, and that was about 18 months ago. Even that wasn't without controversy because of the use of the "O27" RailKing trailer. (Yeah, yeah... I know it matches the dimensions of a contemporary trailer.) Since then, not a peep, other than the "Less than 5 in stock" weekly emails...
Folks in S tend to have long memories. Once burned, it's hard to get back in their good graces. It's not necessarily right, but second chances are hard to come by in S.
Given the glacial pace of the S releases, it's up to MTH to turn things around, not the customer base.
Rusty
Well, that CN car is a one roadname prototype. And definitely not representative of the other 99.9999% of centerbeam cars. Even being a 53' car, the sidesills on the CN are different from the SHS/MTH car.
Just trying not to encourage manufacturers to take flights of fancy in their offerings.
The S in S Scale should stand for Superb, not Slapped-together.
banjoflyer posted:The true centerbeam was a structural part of the frame and allowed longer cars to carry heavier loads. I'd be OK with the above car as substitute for a centerbeam car. Longer cars will of course pose problems for those operators who use r20 curves either original Gilbert or later track such as SHS/MTH or Fastrack. Right now we have NO product and I'm not pleased with that.
Mark
I seem to remember something about a year ago where the Flyonel O27 autoracks scaled out to about 68' long in S and were no trouble on R20...
I know the 75' AM Budd cars will negotiate R20 with no problem, but may hit the AF switch motor housings. I also know they scrape the SHS switch stand.
So it would seem reasonable to say anything a scale 70' long in S should have no trouble on R20 curves. Anything in the 60'-65' range even better.
Rusty
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Roundhouse Bill posted:I just heard from an informed source that MTH is not releasing a S Gauge catalog till June or July. Has anyone heard this or some other date?
This is real discouraging as they have been pushing a new catalog out for at least 3 years.
How SAD that they let all that S helper tooling sit idle with no effort to revitalize S gauge. Looks like they have surrendered this gauge to Lionel. I hope Lionel continues to produce Flyerchief locomotives.
Sgaugian posted:I appreciate what FC has done to the Flyonel product line up and S gauge in general. For me, however, the dawning of TMCC in S-gauge in 2005 and the subsequent introduction of Legacy are what saved the scale for me. Right about that time I was starting to wonder if Gilbert Flyer alone was going to be enough to keep me heavily involved in just "S" for the foreseeable future. Add to that my envy of O gauge having already had TMCC for 10 years and the seemingly limitless variety of engines and rolling stock in HO, and my S-treadfastness was starting to waiver. Since then, however, a variety of TMCC, Legacy, DCC, other-brand conventionally controlled, and conventionally controlled engines that I converted to TMCC have kept me happily specialized in S gauge without interruption. I don't own any FC. It's not that I don't like it or think that it looks like fun. It's just that whenever I get the chance to run my double-header of N&W Mallets, or double-header of LV ES44, or a Challenger, Pacific, SD70, U-boat, Mikado, etc., I go - why bother? To me they collectively represent the pinnacle of S loco's so far.
BTW, I think the ES44's come the closest to "getting it all right" in terms of a truly RTR engine that stays that way. I haven't had to work on mine or send them back (fingers crossed). The Mallets come in at a close 2nd. They're beautifully built. I've only had to enhance their smoke production.
I don't own or plan to own MTH S other than some track to augment the SHS S-trax that I already have. Nothing wrong with it I suppose, just not interested in DCS and I already have an adequate number of SHS engines -- many of which I've converted to TMCC. And some of which I've already sold off.
Now don't get me wrong. All of this would be lost if it weren't for the Gilbert AF that I have and enjoy running. They are the bedrock or foundation of it all that continues to fascinate and please me no end.
Dave
Completely agree Dave (except for the minor point about MTH/DCS which I have now added to my layout - chose it over adding LCS so I could run my TMCC, Legacy and DCS locos all from same app).
One of the big crying shames here is SHS caboose. For my money, in plastic, I have not seen anything in any other scale that beats its detail. I loved it.
Ben
banjoflyer posted:NotInWI posted:One of the big crying shames here is SHS caboose. For my money, in plastic, I have not seen anything in any other scale that beats its detail. I loved it.
Ben
Amen, brother. I bought one road number of every paint scheme they offered in the extended vision caboose and they are without equal in S scale. AM cabeese have their place and Flyer cabeese are still rather toy-like. It seems the MTH business model of "Profit...Schmofit!...who needs it?" is wacky.
Mark
You'd have thought there would have been a caboose release with the F3's. Seaboard had International Car Co. EV cabooses like the SHS model and Santa Fe had similar EV cabooses.
While the NYC, PRR and UP never owned any Extended Vision cabooses, that never stopped many of the train manufacturers before.
Rusty
I wonder if MTH just bought SHS as a test of the S scale waters and released just enough new products to cover their initial costs when those items sold out, and now has decided that there isn't really enough money/volume/interest there to be wildly profitable. If they own the SHS tooling at little to no cost, at least no one else can use it to compete against them.
MTH posts here so I wounder if they are listening?????
If you are why don't you say something encouraging to us MTH??????
Roundhouse Bill posted:MTH posts here so I wounder if they are listening?????
If you are why don't you say something encouraging to us MTH??????
I suspect that if they engage in conversation then they will always be on the back foot with regards to the questions being asked. To say nothing keeps the status quo and keeps everyone guessing still and speculating.
Or going back to my original post, they don't care because they only wanted to block Lionel from acquiring S Helper. You know Lionel would have manufactured them for sale, maybe not quickly, but steadily.
I don't think Lionel would have had any interest in S Helper. Why would they since they own American Flyer. S Helper was a small player in a small market. Their tooling would have meant nothing to Lionel as they had all their own for similar product items.
So many guys who write here are scale people and really liked S Helper. In the larger S market including American Flyer post war guys S Helper wasn't bought much. I think MTH got in easy, not paying much, just to test the S Market. It seems that S is just a priority for now or maybe forever.
Bill
Why would Lionel produce K Line, or buy Weaver, when Lionel already has their own line of O Gauge tooling??? Expanding a product portfolio is expanding. At this point, I agree, Lionel would have made better use of the SHS tooling. Lionel could have called it “Flyer-Sacle”. Wonder where I got that one.
I would also argue that anyone who was buying Flyonel for the past 30plus years, likley also bought something by SHS and AM. I think the only “purist” in S Gauge (not scale mind you) is the old AC Gilbert or bust guys.
Ben
Roundhouse Bill postedSo many guys who write here are scale people and really liked S Helper. In the larger S market including American Flyer post war guys S Helper wasn't bought much. I think MTH got in easy, not paying much, just to test the S Market. It seems that S is just a priority for now or maybe forever.
It definitely wasn't the scale guys keeping SHS in business. Like AM, about 85% of SHS's sales were to HI rail and Flyer guys.
Rusty
I just started in flyer 2 years ago, but am leaning toward FlyerChief Engines with S Helper Cars. People seem to have them at the shows - a little on the expensive side, but worth it. Planning to get rid of most of the hold Flyer for new Flyonel, S helper and AM cars. They look and roll much better.
I have not changed my perspective. We have 34 guys in our club. Some have bought AM stuff including me. Only 1 has S Helper (because he is a scale guy at home) and none bought an F3 but me. All have Gilbert and Flionel.
Roundhouse Bill posted:I have not changed my perspective. We have 34 guys in our club. Some have bought AM stuff including me. Only 1 has S Helper (because he is a scale guy at home) and none bought an F3 but me. All have Gilbert and Flionel.
Maybe in your little corner of the world, but I'm sure Don Thompson would dispute your perspective. In talking with him at an S Fest long ago about possible new products, Don once specifically said the prototypes he chose were because they were size compatible with Flyer. Being taller, only the piggy back and bulkhead flatcars broke away from that plan.
Don knew where the bread and butter was.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Roundhouse Bill posted:I have not changed my perspective. We have 34 guys in our club. Some have bought AM stuff including me. Only 1 has S Helper (because he is a scale guy at home) and none bought an F3 but me. All have Gilbert and Flionel.
Maybe in your little corner of the world, but I'm sure Don Thompson would dispute your perspective. In talking with him at an S Fest long ago about possible new products, Don once specifically said the prototypes he chose were because they were size compatible with Flyer. Being taller, only the piggy back and bulkhead flatcars broke away from that plan.
Don knew where the bread and butter was.
Rusty
To add to what Rusty said - Why do you think S Helper chose to outfit their products with Hi Rail wheels and Flyer compatible couplers? Ready to run out of the box for Hi Railers, but Scalers had to switch out the wheelsets and purchase their own couplers. The only exception was the 2-8-0 which could be ordered as Hi Rail or Scale.
Mike A.
HEY you guys.......I buy what I like........and I like all S gauge products......
Time is over ! At the extremly shrinking market of modelrailroads "S" is a dead horse and will not survive. Other, more popular scales, have the same problems. A friend, a major producer for brass parts here in Germany, told me that the annual sales brake down from 400000 USD to less than 8000 USD in the last 10-15 years. "S" is no longer a commercial interesting product for the mass production manufactors...
'S' stands for survivor, so let's see what happens over the next few years and not make any rash statements at the moment.
'S' has plodded along through some tough times in the past but has always maintained a loyal following which believes in its future.
BigAl posted:Time is over ! At the extremly shrinking market of modelrailroads "S" is a dead horse and will not survive. Other, more popular scales, have the same problems. A friend, a major producer for brass parts here in Germany, told me that the annual sales brake down from 400000 USD to less than 8000 USD in the last 10-15 years. "S" is no longer a commercial interesting product for the mass production manufactors...
I dunno...
Back in the day, A.C. Gilbert was the only mass marketer of S Gauge trains. Everyone else was pretty much "cottage industries."
A.C. Gilbert shut it's doors in 1967. There were no new American Flyer trains (such as it was, a gondola, a box car, a tank car and a caboose) until 1979 by Lionel. American Models didn't hit the street until around 1982. SHS was originally a small cottage industry under a different name making kits of interesting quality before "helping" AM introduce some new products and finally offering their own products around 1989.
Even though they're hardly ever talked about compared to Lionel and MTH, sumptin's goin' on if American Models was recently able to build and move into a larger building.
S is more like a cat with 9 lives and it hasn't reached #9 yet.
Rusty
BIGAL, you are such a pessimist!!! S is not dying any faster than the whole toy train hobby. The problem is that the people who love "Toy Trains" are dying.
At 72 I am one of them that can see the end of their rails. With this happening I have to believe that the toy trains we leave behind will find new hands to play with them. I am a member of most every Flyer and S Gauge group on Facebook. There are a lot of people out there in these groups more than write here. And yes a lot of them are younger. There is a future for Toy Trains!!
Roundhouse Bill posted:BIGAL, you are such a pessimist!!! S is not dying any faster than the whole toy train hobby. The problem is that the people who love "Toy Trains" are dying.
At 72 I am one of them that can see the end of their rails. With this happening I have to believe that the toy trains we leave behind will find new hands to play with them. I am a member of most every Flyer and S Gauge group on Facebook. There are a lot of people out there in these groups more than write here. And yes a lot of them are younger. There is a future for Toy Trains!!
S is the new OO. Sorry to say it but it just is. Enjoy what you have because there won't be much new coming. Especially if you are more scale oriented.
It isn't about being pessimistic or optimistic, when the ship starts taking on water it is sinking... positive or negative won't change the fact.
With Lionel not doing a separate 2018 Flyer catalog maybe MTH will put S in their O Gauge 2018 catalog?
