MTH/DCS Disappointment

Bill,

I am fairly new to DCS as well.  I had the same problem for quite some time and posted on the Forum more than once.  We would get it going, and then it would do what yours is doing again.  Finally after 11 months, I couldn't get it working at all.  I called MTH, and I had a bad TIU, which they repaired under warranty. 

That is not the case for you if you had trouble with it at the show and using their TIU also.  I am assuming they tried the Read button on the lower right hand corner of the remote.  I am still a novice, but at least mine is working after being repaired.  Now my new N&W J has been in for 7 weeks for repair.  Bad right out of the box.   It may be your RS1 needs to go in for repair.  Maybe someone else will chime in.

Try posting this on the DCS board. There are a number of experts who monitor that board and may be able to help. 

Yes, that is where you will get help.  I didn't notice that it wasn't on the DCS Forum.

Maybe if we bump this up, they will see it!

I don't believe the RK series has the DCC switch. I believe there is an internal jumper that needs to be changed on some models to run in DCC (if it's in there?).

Have you looked at the manual?

It is troubling that it quit in conventional mode though.

Please list the full model number to get some better help.

one of these?

http://mthtrains.com/prod-sear...field_catalog%3A6756

I just posted the following on the same thread on the DCS Forum...

Hi Joe,

Thanks, I reposted this over in the suggested PS2/3 Forum, even though I hated to make a duplicate post. As far as the DCC switch goes, I wouldn't have pre-ordered this loco if I had known it was not going to be as described in the catalog, especially if turns out there is no DCC circuitry at all, contrary to what the catalog says. The model number is 30-20249-1 (the Pennsy version).

Bill in FtL

You mean "If one desires to operate a PS3 Rail King engine under DCC," right?

Yes, of course. The typo has been corrected.

Reading the catalog, it seemed pretty simple, I could operate this loco at home on DCC, and then with the flick of a switch, I could run it on the club layout which is DCS. That way, I could use my existing DCC system without having to spend a stack of Franklins on yet another digital control system. So now, that has changed, every time I want to take this loco from the home layout (DCC) to the club which is DCS, I will need to take the shell off and fiddle with a jumper somewhere on the board, or I will have to wire in a switch on my own, giving MTH an excuse to void any warranty? That's not how the RailKing locos are described in the catalogs, even the latest ones!

Anyway, the real question was, why did the PS3 in this loco appear to run OK on both DCS and Conventional power at the LHS, then at the modular setup it would not run in DCS mode at all, and in conventional mode only ran two laps and then wouldn't start up again, while all the other locos there (conventional, PS2/3 and even Lionel) ran without any problem. The other thread about this subject, which was beginning to discuss the possible causes of this problem, now appears to have been deleted by the censors for some unknown reason.

As previously mentioned, this was my first DCS locomotive purchase (and will be be my last, unless this problem turns out to be something ridiculously simple that can be easily resolved). Right now, I'm really regretting this purchase.

Bill in FtL

Bill,

   If you purchase any more engines, have the switch installed where you purchase the engine as part of the purchase price.  Don't give up on a good technical product because of a switch.

PCRR/Dave

Bill, installation of the switch is simple and a slide switch is cheap.

When a loco is added to a remote, it is assigned the lowest ID address available on that remote.  On a club layout, there will be several remotes, the the loco lineup on each would not normally be the same.  This causes great confusion.  The situation is also aggravated if the TIUs and the remotes do not all have the same software version.  Someone else may have sent a command to their loco which had the same ID as yours, and befuddled the onboard computer.

Contrary to what Mark says above, the read button should not be used

Clubs have to set rigid standards for using locos to prevent this, and if they don't there's trouble.  If there are different versions of DCS in use, I suspect they have not done so.

As I said above in the other thread, take it to LHS and try it on their test track.

Bill, installation of the switch is simple and a slide switch is cheap.

Which IMHO is exactly why the manufacturer should have included it esp. considering this engine was cataloged having it. 

KCJ, I'm not saying you're wrong, but given (1) the small percentage of operators who use DCC for 3-rail and (2) the propensity of users not to read manuals and (3) the large number of (2) who were contacting MTH to complain they couldn't run their locos, the MTH action is not unreasonable.  Maybe it would have been betetr to install the switch, with a plug for the board, but leave the board set up for DCS (I don't know whether the jumper should be closed or open for DCS).

So far, no one has yet explained why having the selector switch has been a problem for RailKing operators but not for Premiere operators. In the time since I first pre-ordered this loco, I have tried to read up on some of the problems people on this list have had with their DCS, and it does seem to be more "quirky" than what I know of DCC. If the loco addressing depends on the controller, how does the system deal with multiple controllers? With DCC, the loco addresses are stored in the Command Station, no matter which controller introduced a particular loco to the system. On some of the lower level DCC systems the number of addresses may be limited to a small number of locomotives, so it is important to remember to release that loco from the system when you are done running it.

It almost looks like DCS is more concerned with one controller running all the locos on a layout (though perhaps on separate loops), while DCC is more geared toward multiple controllers running their own locos on the layout. one of my five 3-rail locos is a LionChief Plus Mikado, which is also geared to several controllers each running a specific loco on the layout, so it seemed like it would fit in well if I was running DCC on my small home layout (currently under construction) which is little more than a test loop with one passing siding and a couple of stub sidings.

I plan to take the RK Scale RS-1 into the LHS on Tuesday to see if it can be straightened out, or if the board has been hopelessly scrambled. As far as reading the instructions, it looks to me like the documentation that I got with this loco is a "one sheet fits all" form rather than an actual operator's manual.

Bill in FtL

The jumper costs less money.

I posted on your other thread but it is gone.  May want to take a deep breath.  If you really bought this because of DCC switch, why didn't you ask the shop to demonstrate that feature. At which point you would realize no switch.

A switch can be added for about $5, I bet the cut out may even be on the frame.  Otherwise you remove shell and remove the jumper for DCC and reinstall jumper for DCS.

Here is a page with some instructions on the MTH website.  G

http://www.mthtrains.com/doc-s...field_catalog%3A6749

Okay so why should a problem with MTH's lack of documentation with the customer/operator be my problem? Maybe if they went back to including operating instructions with their products instead of opting for a online only version, this problem may have never arisen in the first place??!!

Make the customer pay for their own shortsightedness is beyond me  

Bill, the controller used to add a loco assigns an ID number, which is then also stored in the loco.  If added to another controller, the 2nd reads that ID.  I have 4 remotes.  I use one of them for adding all locos and setting the parameters, and then clone the other three.  But I don't have other users' controllers to deal with.

I wish that DCC  was never put in any of our boards.  I have been in the hobby for many years and have never met a DCC guy.  I have no idea what they look like.  Why would anyone run an engine in DCC when you can run them in DCS.

GunrunnerJohn: This is what I said on the thread that was deleted. I think the story about  unnecessary returns was just a plausible cover story, the real reason was cost reduction.

GGG: This loco was a pre-ordered item from over a year ago, so I couldn't very well ask for a test run or inspect it to see that the switch was missing, beforehand. Once it came in, then I'm sure most vendors would have been unhappy if I backed out of the deal, because then they would have been stuck holding the item, not MTH.

However, the lack of the selector switch is a secondary issue, although had I known this loco was not as described in the catalog, I probably would not have pre-ordered it. I wish I would have ordered the Atlas RS-1 instead, even though it was more costly. The real problem is the failure of of this new loco to run on the layout in either DCS or Conventional mode where all the other locos are running just fine.

Bill in FtL

Marty,

You asked why, so as I have already said, coming from other scales, I already own DCC systems by both Digitax and Lenz which I am familiar with, and both of which represent a significant investment (especially the Lenz, since I have four handheld controllers and four additional power boosters). At this point, I really don't need or want another expensive digital system. The problem here is MTH marketing something that is not what they say it is. Also, the unit in question did not work as advertised, even with MTH's own DCS controls.

One of the guys at the club said that the problem is that the PS3 isn't 100% compatible with anything but the latest versions of the DCS software, and if the club were to update their DCS, then it would no longer be compatible with the rest of the group's older locos, they would have to be updated as well, and the updating process would require additional electronics as well as a compatible computer to accomplish. He suggested that the loco only worked on the store's test track because they likely had the latest updates. What do you think, does this sound correct?

I will find out more when I take the loco back to the LHS on Tuesday. As the title says, all of this has been a disappointment.

Bill in FtL

Bill, the guy at the club doesn't know what he's talking about.  I run the very latest software, and have both ps3 and original issue ps2 5-volt board locos running perfectly under it.

So, when my loco was test run at the LHS, assuming that controller at that time assigned an ID number that was then stored in the loco, was that ID number still in the loco when I went to the club layout a couple of weeks later? If so, how do you purge the number from the loco in the event that there's a conflict?

Do all the controllers on a given layout need to be clones of one "master unit"? If so, do all member's individual controllers need to be cleared of existing ID numbers when they are first brought from home to a club operating session, assuming they are still holding data from their owner's home layouts (so they can then be cloned from the master controller)? 

This is pretty complex, I'm thinking the LionChief Plus system is looking better all the time!

Bill in FtL

ID number can be changed on the remote.

I'll leave it to club members to say how they handle it.

Bill,

Hello,  Chances are your engine is fine.  A couple things:

1.  Have the LHS reset your engine.  There may be an ID conflict with a lashup on the club layout.  Also have them re test the engine. 

2.  The DCC feature IS on your board just not the switch.  There is a switch cutout on the frame of that engine.  If your LHS is a good one, they would probably install one for you for free.

If you the the LionChief+ is a better deal, you are sadly mistaken.

I know it is easy to get upset over things but this is really something small that can be corrected for you by somebody/shop that is competent.  I am not slamming the shop but rather saying give them a call and a chance to make this right for you.

Also keep in mind that we are all trying to help you here and wish the best.

Dave

Well stated Dave.  G

MartyF,

    Got to admit I think just like you do on this matter, wish DCC would have never been added, especially now with this thread complaining about MTH in general.  However if the advertisement and engine instruction say something exists the manufacturer needs to either change the instructions and advertisement or provide all the necessary engineering to make it work properly NIB.  IMO MTH needs to get rid of DCC in all it's O gauge engines all together.  

PCRR/Dave

Something to think about. Premier PS 3 engines are 2/3 Rail capable. 2R is run using DCC and you have the choice of switching out the high Rail wheel sets with scale wheels. You also need to remove the 3rail pick up rollers.  Most people who buy RK don't even consider running the engines in 2R. Not only is there not a switch, but you don't have the ability to change the wheel sets and the trucks don't have the pick ups installed for 2R/DCC operation. At least with PS3 I have options to run using DCC or DCS. You don't have that option with TMCC/Legacy.

Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but it is DCC and DCS capable.  So did the catalog specifically spell out a switch or generically DCC capable?  Either way there are disclaimers about product changes.

Surely this is not as bad as being advertised with a feature like whistle steam, but not produced with that kind of feature.

This is simple to correct.  One switch, 2 screws and 2 wires.   G

If MTH wants to include DCC capability, and thereby spread its fixed costs over a greater base, reducing the unit price (and increasing profit which means they'll be around if I need parts), that's fine with me.  I would expect the few DCC users to be sufficiently erudite to comprehend how to set the locos up for DCC, and MTH is wise to set the loco up in such a way as to minimize frustration for the vast majority of users (DCS users).

I can understand why a Bill is a little frustrated.   The engine ran fine the hobby shop  and ran ok at home for a few laps in command and conventional. The engine is obviously  in dcs mode  and now it  won't do anything. We really didn't try much to get to the bottom of the problem . Hope Bill gets back to us with good news.

I can't understand what the big deal is about the switch though.

Atlas engines had to have the exact same thing to be done to operate on DCC.

This jumper thing has come up years before.

I would expect the number of buyers who use DCC, and run on three rail track, to be much lower than DCS.

 I would guess that the 2 rail operators, would be higher. So putting the switch inside of premier models only, makes sense to me. I remember some guys complaining about plopping the engine on the rails and it didn't run. They said they shouldn't have to look for a switch.

 Guys here complained when I (we) asked Lionel for KD coupler pads.

Joe, why can't you comprehend that it's an opportunity to bash MTH?

Not in my opinion.. If the engine was advertised with a DCC switch it should have one. period.

Gregg,

If the engine was advertised with a DCC switch it should have one.

Why do you say that it was advertised a having a DCS/DCC switch?

I don't know exactly which PS3 RS-1 he has, however, all of the ones I saw on MTH's web site don't mention any switch. They simply list all of the DCC features.

The only reference to a switch is in the engine's instruction manual, with a photo of a switch under the chassis of the engine.

Read my post again... IF IF IF . I also tried to check out the web site and could find no mention of the switch but didn't check out the catalogs. Maybe it was mentioned there. Maybe not.  And Yes switch or no switch the engine seems to have problems.

OK, I went to the LHS this morning with the dead PS3 RS-1 and explained how the loco ran a couple of weeks ago on the shop's test track, but at the club's module display on Saturday the 18, it wouldn't run in DCS (two attempts), and how after the first DCS attempt it ran in conventional mode for 2-1/2 laps, then after we tried DCS mode the second time, it wouldn't run even in conventional mode. During the DCS attempts, two messages appeared on the displays, "no loco found" and "out of range". I don't know the software version of the TIU, but I believe one of the two handhelds was v.4.0 and the other was v.4.1.

The first thing we did at the shop was to try conventional mode on the test track, and surprise! The engine ran in conventional mode! Then we tried the DCS, using the shop's system with the latest MTH upgrades, and just like Saturday, nothing, nada. Then we went back to conventional mode, and again, nada. None of us could remember for certain if we tried DCS mode two weeks ago when the loco first came in, but I believe we did.

Next, the first thing we tried was a reset in conventional mode, but that resulted in no change. Since we couldn't get the DCS system to recognize that the loco was on the track, we were unable to perform a reset in DCS mode. The store happened to have a little loop of track with a MTH starter set on it for demonstration to customers, which used one of the low-end Remote Commanders. Lacking any other ideas, we put the loco on that loop and tried a reset using the Remote Commander. Viola! It worked! Apparently all resets are not created equal. I also seem to remember reading about problems with the Commander not being able to do a DCS reset, and the persons inquiring about the problem were directed to try doing a reset using a full house DCS system, either at a friend's or at their LHS.

Fortunately, the engine has now been restored to operation in both Conventional and DCS modes. However, we are still not sure of the cause of the problem, whether it was the loco's board or the club's DCS system, so I am still a bit "spooked" by the whole ordeal. I guess the real test will be the next time I try to run it, but it will be a while before I'm able to get my little test layout running.

Thanks to all for their help, and I hope someone out there can make sense of it all, because it seems a bit like black magic to me at this point.

Bill in FtL

Eventually and almost always a solution with this DCS forum..lot of talent here, something i never take for granted. Glad you are up and running.

The layout needs to have the correct Wiring for the Digital Command System signal.

Does the layout use BusBar Terminal strips for a Home-Run wiring pattern.

Could the switches be wired wrong?

Andrew

Bill,

I'm glad to hear you are up and running!

The engine may have been ID'd outside of the 1-99 range.  A 'Recover' may have brought it back with the DCS remote.  You didn't mention if the engine started up in conventional mode when you applied power through the TIU.  If it did not, the engine was probably seeing the DCS signal.  

I am still suspecting a Lashup ID conflict with an engine on the club layout.

Enjoy your engine!

Dave