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How so?  Be specific.

I truly appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby, and positivity about its future, but ...

@Madockawando, who's feeding you the kool-aid?  How much have you had?  (It's probably best to consume it in moderation.)

Neither of your statements in the latter post above is verifiable.

Mike

Who wouldn't be excited about the latest Lionel catalog. It speaks volumes about how strong Lionel is at the moment and Lionel's confidence in the health of the hobby as a whole. This isn't catalog of a timid, cautious company. We should all be happy about that.

As for DCS: Can you name any recent technological upgrades to DCS?  Be specific as you say  

Legacy makes it better! And with this catalog hobbyists could run eight different Class A locomotives as the same time with their CAB-3. Choices! Lot's of choices!

Control system or not fact is Lionel is making models of things in O that already have models of them, not anything new. Plus I can run 8 different locomotives with TMCC or DCS at the same time, so nothing new there either.

I don't buy locomotives because of a specific control system or because they are a specific brand. I have locomotives with TMCC, Legacy, and DCS. I buy something because it fits with my modeling.

I certainly don’t share your pessimism about Lionel’s  Legacy control system. You say everything will be useless bricks in twenty years, yet I am running my new Lionel Legacy locomotives with a CAB-1 remote and base that are physically 25 years old.

I'm not talking about the remotes, I'm talking about the iDevices (i.e. tablets, smartphones) Base3 and WTIU. 

I’m not talking about the technology, I am talking about the actual remote and command base themselves. There is no basis to say that the CAB3 base you buy this year will not be operating 20 years from now.

If folks that are new to the hobby don't have a remote, they'll be missing out on the Legacy features once app development ceases or some new app renders the Base3 useless because WiFi standards change or something.  Keeping apps up to date isn't easy while Google and Apple continue to push their APIs and OSes forward.

Your Cab-1 works but many others have reached the end of their useful lives.  As electronics and technology advances it will be more and more difficult to repair these things as well.  It's already becoming difficult to source certain microcontrollers and even certain LEDs and things.  That said in 20 years, I'd rather be trying to repair a Cab-1 or Cab-2 than a smartphone.

The same thing for the CAB3 app, if you have it on your device, it will work, apps don’t just stop working.

Oh yes they do.  All the time.  Many apps phone home to a server to periodically check in and authorize it for use.  Others fail to work after upgrading the phone to a new version of the OS.  I have an iPad that is about nine years old and it is totally useless.  It's stuck on an older iOS version and most apps have ceased to work on it.

And even if for some strange reason it doesn’t, then use your CAB-1L hand held remote since Lionel will still have remotes.

Lionel will sell 1Ls until they don't.  I imagine that is soon reaching the end of it's manufacturing lifetime.  For all we know this could be the last run.

I am very optimistic and excited about the future of the hobby and the technology is the key to that optimism. Especially after listening to Dave and Ryan at Lionel introduce the CAB-3. Lionel legacy is a thriving and growing system that is backward compatible as well. The best part is that even with all the technological innovations I still only need one wire to hook up. It is the future and it is what will bring new people into the hobby. DCC is a non factor for three rail, DCS has reached a dead end technology wise. New people will gravitate towards the CAB3, not DCS, because Legacy is evolving and thriving.

The technologies are equivalent.  They'll last just as long as they're supported.

This is a great time to be excited about the hobby! The only reason why I would feel pessimistic would be if I had a room full of DCS locomotives. I would be asking myself: “now what do I do?”

Keep trolling.

After watching the CAB3 presentation, I think the best course of action for Atlas and the MTH DCS remnant company would be to try to work with Lionel to get their locomotives compatible so they can be run by the CAB3. There is no longer a real business case to have  a separate control system in the face of the CAB3. Atlas and MTH should also do it for the good of the hobby as well for their long term survival in the O gauge three rail market.

There is no doubt that both Atlas and MTH remnant would sell more locomotives if they could be run by the CAB3.

The industry should have adopted DCC long ago but the bullheaded, pretentious p***ing match continues to rear it's ugly head.

DCS will continue, virtually unchanged, for a while. Not because the hobby needs it but rather because some are emotionally invested in it to let it go. But my point it is that the release of of the CAB3 by Lionel may cause Atlas to reconsider how the Command and Control landscape has change and how they may have to change with it.

Pure speculation. You know nothing of what is going on at Atlas or even Lionel or anyone else for that matter yet you keep saying stuff as if it were fact. Troll.

As for DCS: Can you name any recent technological upgrades to DCS?  Be specific as you say

There are exactly zero technological upgrades in this new Lionel catalog.  Only band-aids.

The Cab-3 is simply a collection of existing technologies.  Some of them are tweaked a little, but nothing new.  4 Digit addressing in the N&W 'A' is hardly earth shattering.  The new CAB-3 app might be one, but we neither seen, nor more importantly played with, its features yet.

Mike

@Lou1985 posted:

Also the OP asked a DCS question in the MTH forum, so how is telling him all about Legacy Cab3 and Lionel's latest offerings helping?

Let's get back to the actual topic.

Sure, but in fairness to myself, I was not the first one to bring Legacy into this thread and I was giving an optimistic counterpoint to what I thought was a rather pessimistic assessment to it's future. Behold:

Whenever the app stops working on a given mobile OS I’m sure the answer will be “run it conventionally.”  The same thing will happen to Lionel’s new Base3.  All of these Bluetooth/Wi-Fi iThingies will be useless bricks in 20 years, as will the WIU, WTIU, and Base3.  It gives me no pleasure to state this fact, but such is technology.  

Since these are closed systems, the best we can hope for is that an open source project will get started to reverse engineer all this garbage.  Or commodity DCC electronics that work well with larger O sized motors.

There are exactly zero technological upgrades in this new Lionel catalog.  Only band-aids.

The Cab-3 is simply a collection of existing technologies.  Some of them are tweaked a little, but nothing new.  4 Digit addressing in the N&W 'A' is hardly earth shattering.  The new CAB-3 app might be one, but we neither seen, nor more importantly played with, its features yet.

Mike

Are you saying there was no engineering work that went into the CAB-3?

Are you saying there was no engineering work that went into the CAB-3?

Little.  Not much hardware design (off-the-shelf pieces appear to be plugged together and existing hardware modified), and some software design (to glue everything together) inside.  Nice industrial design outside though.

The app is a different story.  It may have been completely redesigned -- or not.

Mike

I remember the early days of the DCS APP I would video flaws in the app that I discovered and send them to MTH.  I’d get a thank you and we’ll look into it but I don’t think they ever fixed anything.  Well it’s been years since I’ve used the app.  Still on my phone and no plans to open it anytime soon.  So good luck, another part of MTH that’s in a black hole somewhere.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Not necessarily. Look at DCC. It is considered old technology being developed in the early 90's and it is still going strong. Technology in model trains doesn't work in the same manner like it does in other parts of life. It could be that in 20 years all O gauge trains will have a small board in them that can be run in DCS mode, Legacy mode, DCC mode, or battery power mode and it will be half the size it is today. The user will be able to choose what system they prefer. My only hope-Is that I am here to see what happens!

Lumping DCC in with DCS and TMCC is a fools errand.  DCC is an open system.  External parties can bring their stuff to the party and nicely with others.  Bluetooth and WiFi, should be this way, but are only over the short term because of evolving standards and security issues.

The app stores are a whole other ball of wax. They are a closed system that Lionel and MTH don't control.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Not necessarily. Look at DCC. It is considered old technology being developed in the early 90's and it is still going strong. Technology in model trains doesn't work in the same manner like it does in other parts of life. It could be that in 20 years all O gauge trains will have a small board in them that can be run in DCS mode, Legacy mode, DCC mode, or battery power mode and it will be half the size it is today. The user will be able to choose what system they prefer. My only hope-Is that I am here to see what happens!

Is it going strong?? Or is it just going...

        page 1

@CALNNC posted:

Yea, I've been waiting for the software upgrade for my ZW and 1033's for decades.  I am pretty much a Luddite to everything being run by computer or cell phone,  still using a flip phone as all I ever need to do is make and receive phone calls.   I also spent a career in electronics that spanned the tube era, to solid state to LSI and uProc run everything, and today, things that used to be simple and work well have been made overly complex.  The whole idea is to have fun with this hobby no matter if it is a ZW handle or a touch screen, and every persons RR is their own.

Yep! Running trains is always fun, either conventionally or command control. 👍

@Lou1985 posted:

Control system or not fact is Lionel is making models of things in O that already have models of them, not anything new. Plus I can run 8 different locomotives with TMCC or DCS at the same time, so nothing new there either.

I don't buy locomotives because of a specific control system or because they are a specific brand. I have locomotives with TMCC, Legacy, and DCS. I buy something because it fits with my modeling.

Buying locomotives all with the same control system is part of me keeping it simple for my layout. If it isn’t in Legacy now it will be probably happen later so I can wait.
However, if MTH would do a limited run of the  Central Maine and Quebec #1006 I would buy it in a heartbeat, no matter what the control system it has. So even I would make an exception for a road name that I really want. Any dealers willing to sponsor it?

https://www.pinterest.com/amp/pin/576883033497363711/

https://www.google.com/search?...vid:LsUNoZORc_c,st:0

@BobbyD posted:

Yep! Running trains is always fun, either conventionally or command control. 👍

OP here... agree with this. I run DCS, TMCC and (rarely) conventional. I just want to know what's up with MTH R&D and having lots of experience building phone apps and more want to see things kept current. I am independent (trains, phone OS and politics) and believe competition and choice are good things to have. I don't mind the Lionel talk in this topic though... it motivated me to dive into the latest Lionel catalog, and... uh-oh... I primarily model N&W and I don't have an A class. Looks like a pre-order for that (and CAB-3) needs to be discussed with the wife. Serendipity strikes though: She's currently on an all expenses paid vacation in the Mayan Riviera with girlfriends, so I have serious spouse points for (the other) objects of my desire.

@Tim B posted:

OP here... agree with this. I run DCS, TMCC and (rarely) conventional. I just want to know what's up with MTH R&D and having lots of experience building phone apps and more want to see things kept current. I am independent (trains, phone OS and politics) and believe competition and choice are good things to have. I don't mind the Lionel talk in this topic though... it motivated me to dive into the latest Lionel catalog, and... uh-oh... I primarily model N&W and I don't have an A class. Looks like a pre-order for that (and CAB-3) needs to be discussed with the wife. Serendipity strikes though: She's currently on an all expenses paid vacation in the Mayan Riviera with girlfriends, so I have serious spouse points for (the other) objects of my desire.

There you go!! Just pre order it.. she will understand!😉

I have been watching this thread with some interest.  R & D "in the small" is always challenging.  And MTH's investment in DCS has never, IMO, been very large (or large enough).  Nonetheless, whether we are talking about DCS or Legacy or some future system, I remain somewhat concerned about the “technology for technology’s sake” mentality in the hobby.

But let me explain.  I’m not a Luddite, either.  I’ve spent 40+ years in software development, 16 of them in the toll industry where reliability and accuracy is the entire ballgame.  I know first-hand what over-complicating systems and feature bloat can lead to – catastrophic breakdown and serious maintenance issues.  I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

As food for thought, consider the electric car movement.  Right now, automobiles contain (and this is only going to increase) hundreds of thousands of lines of code (all from different sources, all component specific).  A friend, Dr. Robert Charette, has written extensively in IEEE publications about the implications of this dependence on software.  He thinks, and I agree, that we are about to relive the software crisis in the context of the modern automobile.  During the 1970's, 1980's and even through the 2000's, software errors led to catastrophic results in manned and unmanned aircraft and missiles.

Complexity is its own "reward".  We're seeing this in a small way in our model trains.

Just something to think about,

George

     somewhere it was said that this hobby is a RICH  MAN'S  HOBBY.        Maybe all of this is what is really hurting getting many of the young into the hobby ?

I don't know who tipped you off but YEP. Attitudes hinder a lot of young people from entering or at least in participating in certain groups.

@G3750 posted:

Nonetheless, whether we are talking about DCS or Legacy or some future system, I remain somewhat concerned about the “technology for technology’s sake” mentality in the hobby.



Agreed.

As far as the original inquiry, I was thinking the other day about the guys here that did some work to make Legacy work with Alexa. While I don't know the details on DCS R&D, I think these reverse engineering efforts will eventually be necessary down the road and I think that more and more people with the know-how will join the hobby as we go. I think we'll be ok. Of course, if Lionel and DCS went open source, these concerns would be entirely irrelevant because a determined person could always make a controller to accomplish what they want.

@G3750 posted:

But let me explain.  I’m not a Luddite, either.  I’ve spent 40+ years in software development, 16 of them in the toll industry where reliability and accuracy is the entire ballgame.

No offense, but the consequences of a screwup in development in the toll industry is a traffic jam.  The consequences of a screwup in my working career in avionics developing flight critical electronics is being featured in a headline about an airplane crash where a couple hundred people died!

No offense, but the consequences of a screwup in development in the toll industry is a traffic jam.  The consequences of a screwup in my working career in avionics developing flight critical electronics is being featured in a headline about an airplane crash where a couple hundred people died!

John, I'm not offended, but you are being a bit selective in your response.  I also mentioned electric cars.  Some of those are self-driving.  A screw-up there could cost lives.  And from the 1980's to present day, software screw-ups have occurred in various life-ending or financially painful scenarios from X-ray machines to FB-111 to Arianne rockets to Patriot missile batteries.

But since you selected "toll industry for $100", I'll inform you that the least significant consequence of a screw-up is a traffic jam.  A software screw-up is much more likely to cause one or more of the following to occur:

  • Thousands (or millions) of customers are improperly charged for their trips because vehicle classification (identification) is inaccurate or not working
  • Fares are incorrectly computed - either ticket or E-ZPass
  • Toll violations are attributed to the incorrect vehicles

Here's the impact:

  1. Thousands (or more) of angry customers flood the toll agency with demands for refunds.  That all costs time and money to straighten out.  Sometimes (e.g. WorldCom in New Jersey in 1997-8) that leads to lawsuits and calls from legislative bodies to disband the toll authority.
  2. Any credibility of the toll system gets shredded, affecting audits of toll takers and labor relations (if the toll collectors are unionized, for example).  You can't audit someone robbing the till because you'll lose in court.
  3. The toll authority gets an incredible amount of publicity - all bad.
  4. Depending upon the nature of the maintenance or warranty contract, the system provider could be liable for liquidated damages (typically an amount of $ / incident or period of time, e.g. $100 / hour / lane.  Toll highways typically have hundreds of lanes - you do the math).
  5. The toll authority might call the system provider down to a televised meeting and ask "Why are you such a ****-up?"

As my mentor told me years ago:  In the toll business, you are successful if no one knows your name.  I've been good and fortunate and I'm a ghost - not even a vapor trail. 

But John, you are right:  Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!  

George

@G3750 posted:
As my mentor told me years ago:  In the toll business, you are successful if no one knows your name.  I've been good and fortunate and I'm a ghost - not even a vapor trail. 

Well, I guess I was a successful ghost as well.  None of the equipment I designed ever showed up in any NTSB investigation of an airplane crash.   I'm not sure about the vapor trail, but I'm sure it's dissipated by now.

I have many MTH engines and will always stay with DCS.  I run both MTH Atlas and Lionel engines with DCS, which imo is the best system by far.  I have no interest in the bluetooth nonsense like Lion Chief or whatever.  My question is how will the new CAB3 base hook up with my DCS system.  Will it work like my Legacy base does with DCS?

@rdj92807 posted:

I have many MTH engines and will always stay with DCS.  I run both MTH Atlas and Lionel engines with DCS, which imo is the best system by far.  I have no interest in the bluetooth nonsense like Lion Chief or whatever.  My question is how will the new CAB3 base hook up with my DCS system.  Will it work like my Legacy base does with DCS?

Mostly yes, I assume you have a SER2 connected to your Legacy Base so if you connect that to the BASE3 and interface the TIU to the DB9 port on the SER2, it should work the same. I'd assume that this would also let you use your DCS system to control earlier Lionechief Bluetooth and RF engine through the BASE3.

@rdj92807 posted:

I have many MTH engines and will always stay with DCS.  I run both MTH Atlas and Lionel engines with DCS, which imo is the best system by far.  I have no interest in the bluetooth nonsense like Lion Chief or whatever.  My question is how will the new CAB3 base hook up with my DCS system.  Will it work like my Legacy base does with DCS?

Come to think of it, there is no mention by the catalog or in any of the podcasts or presentations by Lionel that the Base3 will be able to hook up with DCS. Maybe it won’t be able to? That will be interesting.

Come to think of it, there is no mention by the catalog or in any of the podcasts or presentations by Lionel that the Base3 will be able to hook up with DCS. Maybe it won’t be able to? That will be interesting.

Dave mentioned this in the catalog review with Ryan which is available on there youtube. I find it amazing all the misinformation and questions being answered by information they have already covered in videos they have produced.

Yes it will be able to connect but will require ser2 module plugged into the Base3.

Come to think of it, there is no mention by the catalog or in any of the podcasts or presentations by Lionel that the Base3 will be able to hook up with DCS. Maybe it won’t be able to? That will be interesting.

Dave mentioned that it will work but would require ser2 module he covered it in the catalog review with Ryan and should be on Youtube. I find it amazing how many people disregard the videos they produce that have valuable information in them.

Oh okay. Interesting. You are right there is a lot of information out there.

And, a lot of misinformation as well.  Rumors of our death have been greatly exaggerated. 

Hi everyone.  MTH R&D here.  Jon Grasson, formerly with MTH, who posted earlier in this thread told me about this discussion.  I've been a little busy but, wanted to take this opportunity to reply to the OP and maybe clear up some things.

MTH R&D is alive and well in MI.  We're a little thinner on staffing given it's only a couple of us now.  I'm learning to really appreciate all the support we’ve had over all of these years.  So, please be patient as things are moving a little slower these days.  In addition, we had to wind down the previous version of MTH and that transition distracted some of us for a while.  Then there is this little thing called Covid.

In direct response to the OP regarding the app(s), they were recently fully updated for compatibility with current versions of both iOS and Android.  This review and update process was our first step in moving forward.  Stated plainly, we brought the apps up to speed with current mobile operating systems.  We will be releasing them within the next month or so.  We are in the testing and debugging phase at this point.

Looking forward, we, Mike Wolf and I, are indeed going forward with continued development and production of digital model train controls and supporting products.  As you are all likely aware, we've announced the WTIU or, Wi-Fi TIU.  This is a complete hardware redesign of the original TIU with integrated Wi-Fi.   

This redesign was necessary to bring the hardware up to date.  Many components were at or reaching obsolescence.  The hardware redesign is complete and we are testing and working on firmware.  With the firmware comes many new features.  Not the least of which are emulation of the Luci web interface for Wi-Fi configuration (custom network name, password, etc.) and firmware updates to the WTIU and WIU.  Also, you’ll be able to stream audio directly from whatever music service you have directly to the engines.  Further, file loading to the engines directly from our website.  So, updating sound files or engine firmware can be done directly from the app.

Other more practical features include variable DC track power, DCC pass through (think DCS Commander), Device Sync so all devices reflect the current state of operation, and a whole lot more.  But, first things first.  We want to get the new hardware and updated app that supports the new WTIU out first.

As you may have heard, we’re in a supply chain crisis.  Although, there are those in government that deny this, I can attest.  We are having difficulty getting parts to build engine boards.  Some components of the new WTIU are not available until late this fall.  We could have delivered this new product sooner but, it’s tough to make bread without flour.  We are doing everything we can to help ourselves but, there are a few small companies like Apple, Samsung, GM, Ford, etc., that seem to get priority over us.  The nerve.

In terms of other development, we have, at last count, about 18 new product ideas in the queue.  It seems obvious to add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so, book it Danno.  A few that are not quite as easy are a new WZ4K.  Yes, you read that right, a Wi-Fi Z4K. How about an updated Wi-Fi DCS remote for those of you that prefer the dedicated tactile hand-held?  It will be compatible with the existing WIU, the new WTIU, and the WZ4K (way down the line).  There are more but, that’s enough for now.  Of course, these are substantial development efforts and are down the road a spell but, these are the kinds of things that are in the hopper.

There are a lot of other points in the thread that I could address but, alas, every minute I spend here is a minute I’m not spending getting these products developed and built.  So, please keep that in mind when you experience the deafening silence to new questions or posts.  I would really like to be readily available but, I just cannot be so, forgive me.  But, the fact is, we’re here and investing dollars.  On that note, I will respond to one poster who mused that MTH hasn’t invested enough in DCS and technology.  I think I can say with certainty that MTH has invested more in technology over the past 20 years than any other model train manufacturer.  I just think there is a general underestimation of what it takes to get this stuff done.  Our MIT engineers are expensive and in high demand.

Again, please be patient with us.  We’ll try to provide updates a little more often.

" add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so,"

MTH R&D, good to hear from you again, esp[eciallym if you're the same guy.  But some day you may be sorry you said the above quote.  I have 2 cars that are supposed to be able to do certain navigation or communications via my voice command.  With all its assets the manufacturer hasn't been able to make good on this.  Even my car won't do as I say.

@RJR posted:

" add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so,"

MTH R&D, good to hear from you again, esp[eciallym if you're the same guy.  But some day you may be sorry you said the above quote.  I have 2 cars that are supposed to be able to do certain navigation or communications via my voice command.  With all its assets the manufacturer hasn't been able to make good on this.  Even my car won't do as I say.

Hmmm….I’m not having that issue with my car, ……I stomp the pedal, and off we go!…😉

Pat

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