@gunrunnerjohn posted:All the more reason to support the thousands of existing DCS remotes!
Support isn't free John.
Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else paying for!
@kanawha posted:Inside the standard TIU are two boards - the main DCS/power mother board and a radio board for communication to the remote. The radio board plugs into the mother board. Seems like I remember reading a post a long while ago from MTH R&D that for the new WTIU the radio board had to be removed. I assumed that meant they were going to replace the radio board with a WIFI board and essentially make no hardware changes to the mother board. Of course this is just me speculating.
Ken
Based on the pictures and specs of the new WTIU, there will be significant differences between the two motherboards.
@H1000 posted:Support isn't free John.
Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else paying for!
I imagine that they've created a lot of ill will with this change, how much is that worth?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I imagine that they've created a lot of ill will with this change, how much is that worth?
Not enough to cover the continuing support costs of a 20+ year old remote.
@Landsteiner posted:"It’s not like you can get a Legacy base right now either."
True, but it's not like one needs a Legacy base to control any Lionel engine in command mode, at least those made in recent years. There is LionChief and/or Bluetooth for all new locos and that covers most or all important command functions using the $55 Universal Remote and/or the free app. I'm sure the wait on the Base 3 is frustrating for those without TMCC or Legacy bases.Let's not turn this into a pointless discussion of which systems are most unavailable at present.
Both Lionel and MTH high end command equipment are amongst the missing for a year or more now. Hopefully someone from MTH will eventually give us an update with delivery dates. We've been told the Base 3 will appear, most likely first quarter 2024, although they said end of 2023 is still possible.
My point wasn't to make it a discussion of which systems are unavailable.
My point was that:
@Wvm posted:It’s amazing they are still selling engines when all you can get to run them is DCS Explorer limited to three addresses and 5 amps
And...
@Shawn_Chronister posted:It's amazing people are buying engines knowing there is only one system currently to run them and whining about it.
Are false narratives. The fact is that it has been this way - for quite some time now - for both major O-gauge command systems. All modern command locomotives still support conventional running - and even if they didn't, it's not like people that already own an existing command system have stopped buying engines.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I imagine that they've created a lot of ill will with this change, how much is that worth?
I don't disagree with your sentiment - in fact I share it - but...
Based on the last several years of parts shortages, poor quality control, lack of a presence at train shows, lack of repair options, etc. (for all of the major players), do you think that anyone cares? Meanwhile, they sell everything they make, so there's no incentive to improve.
Personally, I've cut way back on purchases of new items - I'm trending towards MPC, postwar, standard gauge, and HO/N. I'm still waiting for an email from any of the manufacturers or major mail-order shops begging me to come back.
In general, sadly, the concept of good will is dead.
@H1000 posted:Not enough to cover the continuing support costs of a 20+ year old remote.
And you know this for a fact how?
@Mallard4468 posted:Based on the last several years of parts shortages, poor quality control, lack of a presence at train shows, lack of repair options, etc. (for all of the major players), do you think that anyone cares?
They do not.
They're counting on profits to continue to come in, as they always have, in spite of these changes:
1.) Offering less value,
2.) while simultaneously charging more money for it.
At various points in the last 60 years we have seen this kind of situation before. Even if they blame the need to do this on inflation only, it's sure to result in lower sales, rather than sustaining existing sales, or in a better world, increased sales.
Would you invest your money in such a business?
If you add good value you'll get a good price for it, hence make a nice profit on it. If you take away value without reducing prices you need to be prepared to lose money.
And therein lies the rub:
Go ahead and take my handheld remote, and I'd probably be fine, but only if you lower your price to compensate for the lost value.
Mike
BTW -- This means: don't try to tell me that there was no value there in the first place, or that the replacement (smartphone app) has much more value than a handheld remote. Both are clearly not true in most people's minds.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:When you remove something that has great value to your customers and replace it with something that has far less value in their eyes, even if you believe that it shouldn't, you had better expect serious pushback.
Perception is reality.
The essence of modern quality movement (1970's to about 2020):
- The customer is always right..
- In the unlikely event you believe that the customer isn't right see No. 1 above.
Over my career, for the last 40-something years, I've had to eat, sleep, and regurgitate this message every single day.
Dragging your customers through anything is a bad way to do it. Even pushing with all your might violates these principles.
Leading the way would help immensely. However, we don't see any leadership here -- only excuses about "why" things have to be the way that's being proposed, and "why" they can't be any other way.
Mike
Not necessarily. Companies drop functionality all the time or stop supporting older versions of things. For example, Google Chrome will not support older versions of Windows or Mac OS as they upgrade it.
With the MTH remote as it now stands it is diminishing returns, the existing remote eventually will disappear as they mechanically fail. They already have an idea about the customers, if the WIU sold well,then it would look like there are a lot of ppl who like the app
The other thing is if a user is currently running the remote, they have a tiu. Remote owners have no reason to buy a WTIU so not catering to them won't hurt them w sales of the new unit.by the time remote owners tiu dies, it is likely the remote will be dead too ( again folks talking their mentality, I am not defending the app or anything).
I am sure they looked at the WIU sales and gauged how important remotes were based on that. Given that Lionel is going app centric given the legacy remote is history, they have reason to do what they did. You can't please every customer, the manual transmission is now pretty much dead in cars for that reason.
I liked what someone else said, MTH should have offered an API that could allow someone to integrate off the shelf game controllers with the unit. To MTH, it is a software implementation mostly.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:And you know this for a fact how?
Because they are not supporting the 20+ year-old remote anymore.
@bigkid posted:I am sure they looked at the WIU sales and gauged how important remotes were based on that. Given that Lionel is going app centric given the legacy remote is history, they have reason to do what they did. You can't please every customer, the manual transmission is now pretty much dead in cars for that reason.
Heck, just look at the prices of DCS Remotes VS. WIUs on eBay. Folks are willing to pay up to $400+ for a WIU while remotes are selling anywhere from $75 to $200. While the WIU also has a lower MSRP than the remote, the demand is higher for WIU and until recently the scalpers took advantage of that.
@bigkid posted:I am sure they looked at the WIU sales and gauged how important remotes were based on that. Given that Lionel is going app centric given the legacy remote is history, they have reason to do what they did. You can't please every customer, the manual transmission is now pretty much dead in cars for that reason.
In case you didn't notice, Lionel was smart enough to fully support all the Legacy remotes with their new command base. 
@H1000 posted:Heck, just look at the prices of DCS Remotes VS. WIUs on eBay. Folks are willing to pay up to $400+ for a WIU while remotes are selling anywhere from $75 to $200. While the WIU also has a lower MSRP than the remote, the demand is higher for WIU and until recently the scalpers took advantage of that.
You might be right about the demand for WIU vs. dedicated remote, but I think there's another possible interpretation for those prices. People might have purchased the WIU not because they prefer using the app, but rather as a hedge against future unavailability of the remote - they want to protect the investment in their TIUs. I know that's the major reason why I bought one.
Based on your experimentation with adapting a gaming controller to the DCS app, it's clear that you understand the attraction of a more tactile remote. (Still hoping that you can find and publicize a way for the less-technical among us to map the app functions to a controller, or maybe you can license the process to MTH.)
OK guys...enough! Closed.
