Great to hear from MTH R&D. IMO DCS is the best O gauge operating system by far, and I will continue to use it and buy PS3 engines for sure. And I run all my Lionel engines with DCS without all the unnecessary complexity and hassle.
GO MTH
Thank you MTH R&D for the very detailed update! Much appreciated.
This is outstanding news! I was an early adapter of the MTH WIFI system and my only complaint was the loss of tactile function. Combining a touch screen with traditional buttons is the best of both worlds. Well done MTH!
- Jason
Thanks for the update, We all appreciate your efforts and understand the struggles the last couple have present to all industries. Keep up the good work!!
Thank you MTH R&D! Very exciting products are coming our way and I can’t wait!
@MTH RD I take it that another run of WIUs will be made as well when parts become available? It'll be great so those of us with TIUs can still use the DCS WiFi app.
@MTH RD DCS Watchdog signals request.
You guys already have a lot to do but it would be very helpful if there was a method to trigger sending watchdogs for some interval of time when a section of track is powered up, like whisker tracks around a turntable or parking sidings. Or, could there be a separate small watchdog board that would supply this.
Thanks for your update! Maybe things will quiet down for a minute or two.
tactile handheld remotes that are wifi. say like ESU,but better. can someone shout AMEN!!! WOW THANKS MIKE. this is the best news. these hopefully are first in line. thanks again MTH,JON,MIKE and all the rest of the crew.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:I'm a hopeless case, still spinning vinyl through tube amplification. Talk about lack of remotes, I have to get up every 15 - 20 minutes and flip the music.
Well, you're very up to date! What's old is new again. Tube amps are still being made, and among the newer ones there are many high dollar brands which are some of best amps there are. Many audiophyles prefer the smooth sound of tube amps over solid state. And vinyl has become very hot over recent years, with many companies designing and building extremely nice turntables to meet the demand. Many prefer the sound of vinyl. It's interesting to see the similarity, in that, there are many model railroaders who prefer trains - and their operating systems - from an earlier time.
Nice to hear that MTH is still moving ahead. Regardless of all the new technological whiz-bangs planned, though, it seems from the many posts which have been made for quite a while that a basic need folks want met is a new handheld control, in order to just run what they already have. That was mentioned - hope it's on the front burner. While these are exciting prospects talked about, it sounds like most of them won't be available anytime soon. Besides the many logistical issues, there's no getting around that it's a skeleton crew trying to do all these things.
More than technological advances, questions about far more basic operational matters like parts availability are a concern for those of us who have MTH engines and those who would consider purchasing more. Availability of adequate support for the MTH engines I already have is far more important to me at this point than some new feature that may be available in the distant future.
This is not to diminish the positivity of comments from MTH R&D, and the reassurance it provides that things are moving ahead. There's still a heartbeat! I guess I'm more reassured, though, by the employment of Mike Reagan to attend to the more basic needs and getting those up and running, like an operational parts department and - hopefully - sources for them. Literally, the "nuts and bolts" of adequate continued operation.
dear mth r@d, since you have stated here that you are pursuing a wifi remote for those of us that want a remote with tactile feel in our hands. albeit not on the front burner right now. if it is only in the discussion phase of things to produce at this time. could we start a seperate thread hear on the forum. to address some of things we may want designed into a new mth wifi remote? just for you and mike to take into consideration when you go to the design phase of that product. just asking.
@MTH RD Hi Jon, I have a question. First good luck with your new company. Now my question.
When it comes to rolling stock, I will happily purchase, MTH, Atlas and Lionel and I enjoy seeing that the latest custom run newsletter to see what's new from MTH. Why am I comfortable buying rolling stock from three different companies? Because the rolling stock all play together nicely.
Locomotives are a different situation. For one, they represent a significant investment compared to rolling stock so I of course have to be more selective with my purchases. Right now all of my locomotives are Lionel legacy. I have ten of them with two more on order. Why do I stick to Lionel? Primarily because I like the simplicity of having one command control system. I know that many people have both and if it works for them fine. For me, having more than one system on my layout is a level of complexity that I am not interested in. It is a real barrier for me to use my limited locomotive budget on a $500 to $600 locomotive that I would have to run conventionally like it's 1950.
So my question is: As Lionel develops the Base 3 and CAB-3 app is there anyway to develop the technology so that I will be able to operate an MTH locomotive with the CAB-3 app without a full on DCS system? If there is an obstacle to this is it technical? Or is it a proprietary issue in that neither Lionel nor MTH will not allow this capability? I would be far more open to purchasing an MTH locomotive if I could run it with the CAB-3 app right out of the box.
For everyone else reading this. This is sincere question. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or start an emotional argument. 
@Madockawando posted:So my question is: As Lionel develops the Base 3 and CAB-3 app is there anyway to develop the technology so that I will be able to operate an MTH locomotive with the CAB-3 app without a full on DCS system? If there is an obstacle to this is it technical? Or is it a proprietary issue in that neither Lionel nor MTH will not allow this capability? I would be far more open to purchasing an MTH locomotive if I could run it with the CAB-3 app right out of the box.
For everyone else reading this. This is sincere question. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or start an emotional argument.
This is a question for Lionel not MTH.
@MichRR714 posted:This is a question for Lionel not MTH.
Ryan and Dave gave a great presentation on the Lionel base 3 tonight. They were asked a similar question about MTH engine operation and said the new system still requires a dcs and the appropriate connector. Watch it here -
@MichRR714 posted:This is a question for Lionel not MTH.
Are you saying that Lionel could develop the capability to use the CAB3 to control DCS locomotives but won’t do it? So MTH allows third party apps like Lionel the CAB3 running DCS locomotives but Lionel allow it?
@Madockawando posted:Are you saying that Lionel could develop the capability to use the CAB3 to control DCS locomotives but won’t do it? So MTH allows third party apps like Lionel the CAB3 running DCS locomotives but Lionel allow it?
Why would MTH be able to comment about what Lionel plans for their Base3 or it's capabilities? Ask Lionel! Lionel is the biggest and most exciting train company right? They can figure out DCS integration in a jiffy! 😉
@Strap Hanger posted:Ryan and Dave gave a great presentation on the Lionel base 3 tonight. They were asked a similar question about MTH engine operation and said the new system still requires a dcs and the appropriate connector. Watch it here -
He is wanting to be able to control the mth engines with the cab 3.
@Madockawando yes this is something lionel would need to develop and they could if they chose too the information to do so is readily available and others are doing it here on the forum with a cab 2.
https://ogrforum.com/...ing-lionchief-trains
MTH DCS has given everyone the ability to run TMCC/Legacy already and now you want them to develop away for to use with the cab3 thats rich.
If you have such a modest engine budget seems to me you backed the wrong horse in the hobby.
I think this thread has descended into a grouchfest.
I have reached an age where I'm happy that my 2001 DCS system (all software upgraded, thank you) can control every MTH DCS loco I have ever bought (over 2 dozen), plus my ancient Lionels (add another 6, including pre-WWII). I like the old style remotes which, while older technology, make the trains (many at a time) go where I want them to go, without my have to flash through screens.
No, I am not a Luddite. I was one of the first users of a 2 WIU system, providing test data. But it has been several years since I ran trains using them. They sit on the layout blinking at me plaintively, while I run my trains.
I disagree this guy has always said how great Big L is and we are just giving the information he should have already known.
Your not a luddite you chose a system that was all inclusive from the beginning without nickel and diming you to run conventional.
I was in DCS from the beginning but I like the Legacy steam as well so I do both.
Skip the @sign. Shawn, I posted a like on your last post
@RJR posted:Skip the @sign. Shawn, I posted a like on your last post
Sorry I added more to my reply to you my computer went haywire.
@Madockawando posted:For everyone else reading this. This is sincere question. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or start an emotional argument.
Lol!! You wouldn't want to go and ruin your reputation around here, now would you??
Short answer:
No Lionel's system can't control DCS locomotives without a TIU because the 2 systems communicate differently.
Long answer:
TMCC/Legacy use one way radio communication. If you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TMCC/Legacy base sends out the command "locomotive #2 blow your horn". Locomotive #2 sees the command and blows its horn. If it misses the command the TMCC/Legacy base has no way of knowing.
DCS is two way communication through the positive and negative rails. When you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TIU sends the command out through the rails, the locomotive receives the command, it responds back to the TIU it got the command, and blows its horn.
The two systems operate differently, so without MTH electronics inside the Lionel Base 3 there's no way it's controlling a DCS locomotive. MTH has no incentive to do this, as they wouldn't sell any TIUs themselves.
A TIU can control a TMCC/Legacy locomotive if you hook the TIU to a Lionel TMCC/Legacy base using the proper MTH cable. The serial port on the Lionel base is designed to let a computer or something else input commands to the base instead of a Cab1, Cab1L, Cab2, etc. So basically the TIU is just sending commands to the Lionel base instead of the Lionel remote. I have all my PS2, PS3, TMCC, and Legacy locomotives programmed into my DCS remotes. I can run any of my locomotives from a DCS remote with my TIU connected to my TMCC base.
So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
@Lou1985 posted:So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
And I don't see that happening anytime soon. Lionel would spend lots of time, money and R&D to add features to an app & base so that their customers can buy someone else's product.
Yep, it looks like a dumping match from where I sit. Kudos to MTH for their answer and yes I am excited about it. I run Conventional, TMCC, Legacy and DCS all from the DCS Side via remote or app. Some people are die hard MTH and others are die hard Lionel and NOTHING is going to change the crying either side does. Nothing but a big DUMP FEST. Stop and enjoy the hobby. Be happy there is competition as it is great for the hobby. ENJOY your trains however you run them and be happy for ALL control systems whether you use them or not.
@Lou1985 posted:Short answer:
No Lionel's system can't control DCS locomotives without a TIU because the 2 systems communicate differently.
Long answer:
TMCC/Legacy use one way radio communication. If you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TMCC/Legacy base sends out the command "locomotive #2 blow your horn". Locomotive #2 sees the command and blows its horn. If it misses the command the TMCC/Legacy base has no way of knowing.
DCS is two way communication through the positive and negative rails. When you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TIU sends the command out through the rails, the locomotive receives the command, it responds back to the TIU it got the command, and blows its horn.
The two systems operate differently, so without MTH electronics inside the Lionel Base 3 there's no way it's controlling a DCS locomotive. MTH has no incentive to do this, as they wouldn't sell any TIUs themselves.
A TIU can control a TMCC/Legacy locomotive if you hook the TIU to a Lionel TMCC/Legacy base using the proper MTH cable. The serial port on the Lionel base is designed to let a computer or something else input commands to the base instead of a Cab1, Cab1L, Cab2, etc. So basically the TIU is just sending commands to the Lionel base instead of the Lionel remote. I have all my PS2, PS3, TMCC, and Legacy locomotives programmed into my DCS remotes. I can run any of my locomotives from a DCS remote with my TIU connected to my TMCC base.
So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
Thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out explanation. It’s far more helpful then someone else who told me: “It’s Lionel’s problem.”
So it seems that the obstacle to being able to control a DCS locomotive with a CAB-3 is technological, not necessarily proprietary.
For me, although there is plenty of MTH premier rolling stock in my future, it doesn’t look like there will be many MTH locomotives.
The exception I will make is that I will definitely buy a Central Maine and Quebec AC4400 #1001 and or 1006 if MTH makes one first.
Again, thank you for taking the time to answer the question properly.
The Legacy system can already control MTH locomotives by using the Legacy PowerMaster. I even think there's a way to control some of the advanced features using the MTH horn/bell sequences programmed into the Legacy CAB-2.
@rplst8 posted:The Legacy system can already control MTH locomotives by using the Legacy PowerMaster. I even think there's a way to control some of the advanced features using the MTH horn/bell sequences programmed into the Legacy CAB-2.
Do you mean conventional control changing track voltage? That would make if difficult to operate more than one locomotive on a block as well as Legacy locomotives on the same track.
How did this thread get turned around from MTH R&D Status to Lionel R&D Status?
Can we get back on track (pun intended)?
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:How did this thread get turned around from MTH R&D Status to Lionel R&D Status?
Can we get back on track (pun intended)?
Mike
I sure don’t know. @MTH RD invited me to join this thread so I asked a question. I wanted his perspective on if it will become possible to operate DCS locomotives with the CAB-3 just like TMCC/ Legacy locomotives can be operated with a DCS remote. Lionel has already said that the Base-3 will allow Legacy control through DCS. My question is for MTH. A “yes” answer will make it easier for me to decide to purchase DCS locomotives in the future.
Unfortunately, a select few decided that instead of being helpful they told me to pound sand and say “it’s Lionel’s problem.”
The good news one person took the trouble to give me a detailed technical explanation of the obstacles involved.
@Shawn_Chronister posted:He is wanting to be able to control the mth engines with the cab 3.
@Madockawando yes this is something lionel would need to develop and they could if they chose too the information to do so is readily available and others are doing it here on the forum with a cab 2.
https://ogrforum.com/...ing-lionchief-trains
MTH DCS has given everyone the ability to run TMCC/Legacy already and now you want them to develop away for to use with the cab3 thats rich.
If you have such a modest engine budget seems to me you backed the wrong horse in the hobby.
LoL!! Okay 
So disappointing to hear from MTH above in this thread that they don’t expect to have parts for new WTIU until fall. At least that seems to dispel all the April estimates that have been out there. I am upset with myself that I have purchased any MTH engines while being unable to buy anything to run them with. Ya I know I can get a TIU on eBay if I’m willing to lend over 800 bucks.
In the meantime I’m stuck trying to run with a DCS explorer manipulating delete and add only three engines at a time but only being able to run one at a time if I have lighted passenger cars because I am limited to 5 amps I would run conventionally with supposedly comparable Lionel transformers I have but I and too afraid of blowing boards
Oh Well what are you going to do?
@Lou1985 posted:So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
And this gets back to software. TMCC commands are open to the public. MTH was able to write software to issue TMCC commands to a Legacy base and have it transmit commands to Lionel engines.
DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
It can be licensed just as MTH had to buy a license to use Legacy coding (this one is NOT open source like TMCC, you pay to play) for the DCS App. I believe Dave Hikel & Atlas have both have licenses to use, develop and sell products with DCS coding.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:And this gets back to software. TMCC commands are open to the public. MTH was able to write software to issue TMCC commands to a Legacy base and have it transmit commands to Lionel engines.
DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
Ah, so that changes things bit. On one hand Lionel would have to do the engineering work in order to enable its CAB-3 to run SCS locomotives, BUT, while TMCC commands are open to the public, DCS commands are not, so if Lionel wanted to do the engineering work to run DCS with the CAB-3, MTH will not allow it for proprietary reasons.
IMO, while MTH has every right to keep their software proprietary. However, I think it it would be in their interest to make their DCS commands public. Just looking at the history of the software platforms: Open source rules the world, proprietary software withers on the vine. If would be a win for everyone if MTH would make their DCS commands open to the public like Lionel has with TMCC.
- The hobbyist wins because now they can run all brands of trains with either DCS or Legacy or both.
- MTH would win because they would sell more locomotives to people like me and DCS would likely come into wider use.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:And this gets back to software. TMCC commands are open to the public. MTH was able to write software to issue TMCC commands to a Legacy base and have it transmit commands to Lionel engines.
DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
Indeed. Not too long after introducing TMCC Lionel elected to open its communication protocol and a specific hardware connection for use by anyone, using any hardware and/or software, to control TMCC, and later Legacy using TMCC, locomotives. There are few restrictions, if any.
MTH, on the other hand, has not done the same for DCS. The DCS protocol and hardware interface is considered proprietary, and so a formal license to use it must be negotiated with MTH before any party that wants to create or market a product to control MTH locomotives can do so.
Not requiring a license, MTH was free to add TMCC/Legacy support to it's control system.
Requiring a license Lionel was not free to add DCS support to it's control system.
Did Lionel ever conduct negotiations with MTH to license it's protocol and interface? Very few, if any, of us know the answer to that question. Would big money be necessary to secure the license if they did? Most probably.
Or, it's possible that MTH simply said "Never".
And of course, it's also possible that Lionel never tried.
Mike.
It will be interesting too see what a new DCS -Wifi controller will look like. Hopefully MTH will enhance the current controller.
Let's clear the air:
LEGACY Code is NOT free open source, you must get/pay for a license to use it in your own products. Lionel does have the code available online for anyone to look at but if you want to build your own products that use that code to control Legacy equipment through a Lionel BASE, you need get permission and pay for a license.
MTH DCS Code can be licensed to be used in your own products for a fee much like Legacy code, just ask Dave Hikel & Atlas.
@Madockawando posted:Ah, so that changes things bit. On one hand Lionel would have to do the engineering work in order to enable its CAB-3 to run SCS locomotives, BUT, while TMCC commands are open to the public, DCS commands are not, so if Lionel wanted to do the engineering work to run DCS with the CAB-3, MTH will not allow it for proprietary reasons.
While MTH may have had access to the TMCC commands they still incurred considerable cost developing software to wrap those commands in some logical way.
Even with purchasing a license from MTH there is/would be considerable work required to produce a software package that works. That is two major costs.
The situation with MTH licensing and TMCC open source proves the adage that in business it is not always best to be first.
EDIT: my apologies if I've confused Legacy and TMCC. MTH can only talk TMCC to Legacy base.
Lets not forget that this is "Mikes" ( a train guy)s control system. Legacy is owned by investors who have no interest in the products they sell outside of the profit in their portfolio.
Mike makes trains, Guggenheim makes money.
