MTH S Scale NYC F3: Preliminary Report

Rusty:

Your news couldn't have arrived at a better time. I'm very glad it looks as if MTH has not screwed with a good thing and broke it.

I will not be posting in the current Flyonel GP7 thread, for I don't want to poo-poo in it... but I will say here that if the "new and reworked" GP7 is what Lionel thinks is a good direction for the S crowd: Wow. I'm flabbergasted.  So many steps backward I can't count them. Seems their "new and improved" GP7 represents a lot effort/money expended on a product that will end up looking terrible.  Even if I were in AF/Hi Rail, I would reject that thing.

I say the above paragraph to lay the foundation for this: It is now my feeling that MTH, as slow and sluggish as they are, is really the only mfg'er between the two that the scale S enthusiast has any hope of receiving good product from.

I suspect that Lionel does NOT have a workable, long term, vision for S scale, especially within the scale persuasion. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt that I am. 

Thanks for the report.  Hopefully my SF units aren't far behind.

Brendan

Please post a video Rusty. I'm glad you like them, but I'm pretty picky when it comes to sound and slow speed operation as you know. Specifically, MTH engines have a bad habit of jumping from a stop the first speed step. If you could test that under DCC it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

Next up: Scalifcation.

I'm going to have to review the manual (Notice I didn't say READ, I'd have to turn in my Man Card then...) and get familiar with MTH's DCC operation.  I'm going to test each unit before and after they're scalified.  One step at a  time.

As far as video, once I get these things to act as a single locomotive, then I'll have to re-figure out my video camera.  I tried posting cell-phone video last year, but for some reason the forum software changes the format and I get sound but no picture.

Rusty

I see no steam generators on the roofs. Painted in NYC freight colors. All is well, very good. I hope MTH keeps paying attention to little detail variants like this.

Quick Casey posted:

I see no steam generators on the roofs. Painted in NYC freight colors. All is well, very good. I hope MTH keeps paying attention to little detail variants like this.

I'm hoping they get it right on the Santa Fe's...  No S/G on the A's, only S/G's on the B's.

Another little update. 

The MTH F3 weighs 3 ounces more that one of my SHS F3's.  Probably the difference between Proto3 electronics and the Lenz decoder in my F3.

I want to make sure things are working OK before I scalify these, so I tried them on conventional DC.  First, I did each unit separately.  I can hear a relay click before the F3's energize.  The sound comes on with the throttle a little less than half-way.  A little past half-way and the locomotive begins to move.  Throw the direction switch and the locomotive will slow, then reverse direction.  No horn or bell control.  The only thing I can see is they run opposite of my direction switch on my throttle.

The A-units are set to run back-to-back, it's a matter of observing which way the B-unit takes off to get it to match the A's direction.  according to the manual, there are some switches located behind the back door, but I haven't fully investigated them yet.

I was able to run them on a short stretch of code 100 track with the HiRail wheels.  They do bump on some of the spike heads, but they ran well enough to convince me I'm just about ready to try DCC.  Once I've convinced myself i know what I'm doing, I'll scalify the locomotives.

I'm far from a DCC genius, so I'm treading carefully here.  I want to go through the manual some more, so far I've picked upon the fact the locomotives are defaulted to address 3.

Oh yeah... The manual says S Gauge F3 and F7 Diesel Engine Operator's Manual, so maybe... (Hopefully not in another 4 years.)

Rusty

Do these have a "China drive" (two vertical motors), or the single motor setup with gear cassettes for each truck like S-Helper Service used??  If anyone has had the hood off, what's the gear ratio, and what kind of motor is used?  Is it the ubiquitous Mabuchi 385?

A pic with the hood off would tell a lot.  Thanks!!

Rusty, Read the manual as there is lots on DCC and there is a switch for DCC inside the back door.

Ted Sowirka posted:

Do these have a "China drive" (two vertical motors), or the single motor setup with gear cassettes for each truck like S-Helper Service used??  If anyone has had the hood off, what's the gear ratio, and what kind of motor is used?  Is it the ubiquitous Mabuchi 385?

A pic with the hood off would tell a lot.  Thanks!!

Ted,

Nope, no China drive.  The tach tape on the flywheel that MTH uses is visible behind the fuel tank underneath.

These aren't my locomotives and I remember the SHS shell was difficult to remove because of a tight fit, so I'm not going to chance it.  Sorry, no interior photo's.  I expect the gear ratio is the same as SHS's was, there would be no reason to change it.

Bill,

This is being a very organic process for me, I know enogh about each system to be dangerous.  I've checked the manual for specific information as I've needed it.  I accidentally found out they will run on DCC with the switch in the DCS position, however it is possible to lose sync between the front and rear A-units.  After moving the switch to DCC, I've done tests run with no problems.  of course, bumping along on code 100 track with HiRail flanges doesn't help.

I'll start scalifing the units tomorrow.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

 

 

Rusty

Just curious but what percentage of the intended buyers of these beauties will be 'American Flyer high-railers running them on tight curves?

Just look at that gap! I wonder when the manufacturers will begin to package these with close couplers, scale pilots (I thought the lead A unit was pushing a handcar or something in the photo below) and the like installed? The huge AF couplers and extended couplers can be included to be installed if desired.. It's like Lionel (especially) marketing their full-scale steamers with tiny pilot wheels...

I would think that an increasing number of buyers are more scale minded and should be the default audience! 

"Scalifing":

Haven't heard that one since the '70's when someone did an article on "Scalemizing" (that's how it was spelled; I looked it up) The Atlas F9" (in O scale, of course...)

(My photo, not the article's...)

Mark in Oregon

c.sam posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

 

 

 

 

Rusty

Just curious but what percentage of the intended buyers of these beauties will be 'American Flyer high-railers running them on tight curves?

Just look at that gap! I wonder when the manufacturers will begin to package these with close couplers, scale pilots (I thought the lead A unit was pushing a handcar or something in the photo below) and the like installed? The huge AF couplers and extended couplers can be included to be installed if desired.. It's like Lionel (especially) marketing their full-scale steamers with tiny pilot wheels...

 

I would think that an increasing number of buyers are more scale minded and should be the default audience! 

Pardon me if I jump in here, as I am only an observing bystander. These A's and B's are not a set, but offered as individual sales. Maybe some people will have a single A unit pulling a consist. They may need the huge coupler at the rear of the A unit. As another has shown, easily corrected with AM couplers if you want close coupling.

So far, I am impressed with what MTH has done. BTW, I own some S-Helper rolling stock and locomotives.

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam.  That is why MTH and Lionel spend most of their efforts on Hi-Rail in S Gauge.  

Nobody here is talking about running theirs on DCS.  I ran the Jersey Central on both DCS and conventional.  DCS worked well after I got used to the system.  The frustration was similar to learning about Legacy when I bought that to go with my Big Boy.  I found with conventional that the two powered units did not always move at the same speed causing them to push and pull against each other.  Has anyone else observed this? 

DCS seems to be more robust than Legacy with more features to learn.  Will any of you buy a full DCS system ($350) to run the F3 or the minimal DCS Remote Commander unit ($60)? 

I would, but in this discussion I am an enigma. I already have DCS (for O gauge) which I really like. And I own S gauge AM, SSA and S-Helper. If you guys do not want to embrace DCS, that's fine, but I hope that MTH produces product that you like. If I'm going to be in S gauge, it will be as a scaler and MTH is the last hope for scale with CC. If MTH were to reproduce the SHS locomotives that I have, I would sell my SHS for MTH because of DCS.

I've recently entered the world of HO and DCC. I also purchased a MTH Alco PA ABA with all three  units having PS3. Although I have a DCS system for my O gauge items (and like it) I've noticed that most of the fellas in HO locally have strong anti-MTH feelings and no desire to use DCS.  Does DCS have any advantages over DCC?

I have no experience in DCS, I don't think I would buy the Full DCS system unless MTH really starts pumping out product I like. Can I run an ABA with the cheaper DCS lite system???

Ben

Roundhouse Bill posted:

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam."

In the case of Lionel, I feel that is a terminal business model.  (In the case of MTH, they already have built-in "scale" capability via their SHS purchase, for ALL of SHS products were "scale" oriented.)

Case in point:

Take a look at the avatars of those that frequent this S scale forum. With rare exception(s), baby boomers are the significant majority. Those here of the AF persuasion typically "connect" with AF on account of childhood/youthful connections.  Fact:  As a whole, AF fan or not, we're "aging-out".  That is, frankly speaking, at a specific, yet undetermined time, our tickets are getting punched, and we're ending our stint on this planet and passing on. 

In the case of AF, the enthusiasts are "aging out" in far greater numbers than new entrants that are coming into the AF side of S scale. Over the coming years there will be many, many large collections of AF-type S scale that will be hitting the market place because of attrition.  There won't be large numbers of enthusiasts vying to acquire pieces from those collections, for very few people are entering the AF side of S scale to replace those leaving.

To me, that is a terminal business model for Lionel to pursue: Catering to a demographic that is aging-out and will be VERY much reduced within the coming (not so short) years.

So, Lionel will either milk the AF sugar titty until it runs dry and then they're done with S... or they will start figuring out ways to tap into the younger HO modelers that want larger trains without the size of O/G scales, and, as we all know, S is that size.

Frankly, I don't think Lionel is all that interested in the longevity of S, or they just fail to grasp the facts.

Simply put: Without a huge infusion of new AF-type enthusiasts, AF is not the long term future for S scale.

I don't mean to be depressing, it just seems to me that SOMETHING needs to be a wake up call to Lionel (in particular) to seriously reconsider their current business model IF they want to continue within the S scale segment of the hobby on the long term.

Also, from what I'm reading (and what I see on other forums), HO is still experiencing some growth. And, there are far more "younger" (i.e. age 30's - 50's) people within it than is found in either O or S. Growth wise, HO and N are doing all right... it's the larger scales that are contracting.

c.sam posted:

I've recently entered the world of HO and DCC. I also purchased a MTH Alco PA ABA with all three  units having PS3. Although I have a DCS system for my O gauge items (and like it) I've noticed that most of the fellas in HO locally have strong anti-MTH feelings and no desire to use DCS.  Does DCS have any advantages over DCC?

So many and more. Most importantly, with DCC one can easily operate locomotives together regardless of manufacturers. Can't do that with DCS, strictly MTH only. If I could pick between the two, I'd go DCC for sure. 

c.sam posted:

 I've noticed that most of the fellas in HO locally have strong anti-MTH feelings and no desire to use DCS.  Does DCS have any advantages over DCC?

In HO, DCC is pretty much king.  I cannot see any wholesale abandonment of a standard that is not proprietary, is accomodated by all HO vendors, has JMRI, has multiple vendors offering a wide variety of decoders, has many vendors creating/offering add-on electronics, and a a large base of knowledge for a proprietary system run by one company.  Even MTH realises this and has DCC in PS3.  Granted, there is proprietaryness among the control systems - NCE, Digitrax, Lenz, etc. but I only need one to run any DCC-eqiupped engine\.  The options for decoders is unheard of in the MTH/Lionel world.

Brendan

laming posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam."

In the case of Lionel, I feel that is a terminal business model.  (In the case of MTH, they already have built-in "scale" capability via their SHS purchase, for ALL of SHS products were "scale" oriented.)

Case in point:

Take a look at the avatars of those that frequent this S scale forum. With rare exception(s), baby boomers are the significant majority. Those here of the AF persuasion typically "connect" with AF on account of childhood/youthful connections.  Fact:  As a whole, AF fan or not, we're "aging-out".  That is, frankly speaking, at a specific, yet undetermined time, our tickets are getting punched, and we're ending our stint on this planet and passing on. 

In the case of AF, the enthusiasts are "aging out" in far greater numbers than new entrants that are coming into the AF side of S scale. Over the coming years there will be many, many large collections of AF-type S scale that will be hitting the market place because of attrition.  There won't be large numbers of enthusiasts vying to acquire pieces from those collections, for very few people are entering the AF side of S scale to replace those leaving.

To me, that is a terminal business model for Lionel to pursue: Catering to a demographic that is aging-out and will be VERY much reduced within the coming (not so short) years.

So, Lionel will either milk the AF sugar titty until it runs dry and then they're done with S... or they will start figuring out ways to tap into the younger HO modelers that want larger trains without the size of O/G scales, and, as we all know, S is that size.

Frankly, I don't think Lionel is all that interested in the longevity of S, or they just fail to grasp the facts.

Simply put: Without a huge infusion of new AF-type enthusiasts, AF is not the long term future for S scale.

I don't mean to be depressing, it just seems to me that SOMETHING needs to be a wake up call to Lionel (in particular) to seriously reconsider their current business model IF they want to continue within the S scale segment of the hobby on the long term.

Also, from what I'm reading (and what I see on other forums), HO is still experiencing some growth. And, there are far more "younger" (i.e. age 30's - 50's) people within it than is found in either O or S. Growth wise, HO and N are doing all right... it's the larger scales that are contracting.

Amen...

If we pull our heads up out of the world of S gauge toy trains and look at the rest of the model railroading world it is clear to see that 'scale' models are what sells.

Let's take one verified example:

Scaletrains.com recently made a UP Turbine in HO scale. Their whole business model is built on building the most accurate, detailed models possible. Their first shipment of turbines totaled more than 10,000 lbs. of HO turbines. All but one palate full were pre-sold.  Here is the video:

IMHO, There is only one way S survives through the next decade. It MUST draw in people from other scales because S has the perfect size. The only way that will happen is if there are scale models to entice people to switch scales.

If you just want to keep selling toys to a declining market that's fine but at some point it won't be worth it. I'm not even saying that they shouldn't make AF products. Knock yourself out. But for those of us that 1. Are 30-50 2. Spend a good deal of money every year 3. Are only interested in scale trains 4. Love the size of S - How about making something for us too? It isn't a bad business model... We spend more on average and we'll be buying for a longer period (on average).

I'll stop beating the dead horse now. If MTH or Lionel builds a scale product, I'll buy. If they don't I won't. That's really the only vote I have at the end of the day.

I found with conventional that the two powered units did not always move at the same speed causing them to push and pull against each other.  Has anyone else observed this? 

This characteristic is also true in Lionel's Legacy models. My SD70ACe runs slightly faster than either of the ES44AC locomotives, which also differ a bit from each other when run on straight DC. A 3-unit consist would consistently derail on American Models switches unless the faster SD70ACe was in the lead. Fixing the pivoting pilots into a permanent position for all three locomotives reduced the problem significantly, and running them on Legacy AC eliminates the problem entirely.

Well done MTH nice to see the F units return to the market

Colin Stewart

Inverness, Scotland

c.sam posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

 

 

Rusty

Just curious but what percentage of the intended buyers of these beauties will be 'American Flyer high-railers running them on tight curves?

Just look at that gap! I wonder when the manufacturers will begin to package these with close couplers, scale pilots (I thought the lead A unit was pushing a handcar or something in the photo below) and the like installed? The huge AF couplers and extended couplers can be included to be installed if desired.. It's like Lionel (especially) marketing their full-scale steamers with tiny pilot wheels...

I would think that an increasing number of buyers are more scale minded and should be the default audience! 

C.Sam:

Here's the photo's I posted in another thread using AM Snap-lock couplers in place of the Flyer compatibles on an SHS AC HiRail pair:

The gap is about as close as it is using the Kadee compatible brackets, but with the extra flexibility for R20.

The rear of the B-unit still has the Flyer compatible coupler installed.

The snap-lock couplers were installed in the SHS coupler boxes and do sit lower than the standard height, which make these a married pair.  I also put a snap-loc on the front mainly for looks.  MTH hasn't changed how the couplers are mounted, so the same can be done with their F's.

They run on R20 just fine.  Of course, what you lose is the ability to run a single unit if so desired.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam.  That is why MTH and Lionel spend most of their efforts on Hi-Rail in S Gauge.  

Nobody here is talking about running theirs on DCS.  I ran the Jersey Central on both DCS and conventional.  DCS worked well after I got used to the system.  The frustration was similar to learning about Legacy when I bought that to go with my Big Boy.  I found with conventional that the two powered units did not always move at the same speed causing them to push and pull against each other.  Has anyone else observed this? 

DCS seems to be more robust than Legacy with more features to learn.  Will any of you buy a full DCS system ($350) to run the F3 or the minimal DCS Remote Commander unit ($60)? 

I'm not sure about DCS Remote Commander.  I think it's designed to run one locomotive at a time and each locomotive under DCS has a unique address, unlike DCC where you normally have a default address of 3 in all locomotives and can change the address.

It's a question best asked on the DCS Control forum.

I haven't tried this trio on DCS.

I noticed one of the A's of the trio runs a little faster.  The other A and B seem pretty well matched.  Another thing I noticed was MTH's traction tires have no "slide," so this may become an issue with the HiRail's after the unit's break-in. 

The scale wheels have no traction tires, so any minor differences will be handled with a little wheel slip. 

There's even some minor speed differences on my SHS locomotives , but I've never had any kind of issue with running them together after 10-15 years.  Same goes for my AM locomotives.

Rusty

NotInWI posted:

I have no experience in DCS, I don't think I would buy the Full DCS system unless MTH really starts pumping out product I like. Can I run an ABA with the cheaper DCS lite system???

Ben

If you mean the Remote Commander, I think the answer is no.

However there is also a DCS Commander Controller than can run 10 (edit 3) DCS locomotives. This controller is about half the price of a full blown DCS system.

A little explanation; all DCS locomotives ship from the factory with a default address. The Remote Commander can control any one locomotive that still has it's factory default address.

When you add a DCS locomotive to a Commander Controller or the full blown DCS system, the locomotive is assigned a new address.

I spent the morning between laundry loads scalifying my friend's F3's.  Conversion is covered pretty well in the instruction book and is exactly the way the SHS versions were.

A couple of quick notes first:

• There's plenty of grease lurking in the gearboxes to apply to the code 110 wheelset gears.
• It's easier to mount the rear coupler brackets with the truck sideframes off.
• The code 110 wheels have a narrower width, it's wise to bend the pick-up wipers out a little before installing the wheelsets.
• While not necessary, I reinstalled the screws that hold the Flyer compatible coupler bracket.  Gotta put them somewhere..
• There's really no place to put the old coupler brackets in the box.  The A-unit box has a place for one, but not the other.
• I discovered after working on the last unit, there's a packet with the MU hoses for installation on the ends.  SHS had these installed.  I still have yet to install them.
• The green class lights appear to be just that: Green.  It look's like they're light pipes that pick up light from the numberboards.
• The cab chatter isn't anywhere near as annoying or as loud as Lionel's.  No "We're shuttin' her down and going for beans" type talk here.

On with the show...

First up: Mind The Gap, Part 2:

The trio in full scalification:

I've been checking them out using DCC (MRC Prodigy 2) basic consisting (all addresses the same, default 3) and they fun fine together.  I haven't gone in and changed any CV's.  As Bill pointed out, there are switches behind the rear doors that control DCS/DCC, motor start direction, light direction.  I scanned this in from the manual:

While the manual says to leave the switches in the forward position on the trailing unit for DCC, I set them in the reverse position.  Seems to work fine and I didn't have to mess with CV's to reverse motor and light operation in basic consisting.  I imagine it might affect advance consisting.

A couple of pictures on the road (the cab light goes off in motion.)

And for a final look, F3's in black and white: MTH New York Central F3's and SHS CB&Q F3's:

The MTH F3's have succeeded the SHS F3's quite well.

Rusty

NotInWI posted:

I have no experience in DCS, I don't think I would buy the Full DCS system unless MTH really starts pumping out product I like. Can I run an ABA with the cheaper DCS lite system???

Ben

Bingo. That's exactly what I told Andy E. about 3 years ago. I said I don't think people in S are going to jump to their DCS system until MTH puts out enough product to convince them. Andy seemed to think once the F units came out that people would jump onboard. I guess we will see.

DCS is a good system. Not great, but good. It provides a lot of flexibility and is very easy to use compared to DCC. Consisting multiple engines is simple in DCS, not so much in DCC. However, you are locked into the proprietary DCS system. You have limited ability to change sounds (very few people do) where DCC makes this a common practice. Slow speed operation is not as smooth or as low in DCS as good DCC decoders can achieve. The DCS system does have the Wi-Fi capability now which is nice, but that can be done in DCC (albeit more difficult) as well. 

Basically DCS is more user friendly and cheaper, but less capable and expandable. If you are aren't going all in on DCC then I recommend DCS or DCS commander at least. You can run them on AC or DC, but the extra functions and capabilities are worth the investment IMHO.

jonnyspeed posted:

NotInWI posted:

I have no experience in DCS, I don't think I would buy the Full DCS system unless MTH really starts pumping out product I like. Can I run an ABA with the cheaper DCS lite system???

Ben

Bingo. That's exactly what I told Andy E. about 3 years ago. I said I don't think people in S are going to jump to their DCS system until MTH puts out enough product to convince them. Andy seemed to think once the F units came out that people would jump onboard. I guess we will see.

DCS is a good system. Not great, but good. It provides a lot of flexibility and is very easy to use compared to DCC. Consisting multiple engines is simple in DCS, not so much in DCC. However, you are locked into the proprietary DCS system. You have limited ability to change sounds (very few people do) where DCC makes this a common practice. Slow speed operation is not as smooth or as low in DCS as good DCC decoders can achieve. The DCS system does have the Wi-Fi capability now which is nice, but that can be done in DCC (albeit more difficult) as well. 

Basically DCS is more user friendly and cheaper, but less capable and expandable. If you are aren't going all in on DCC then I recommend DCS or DCS commander at least. You can run them on AC or DC, but the extra functions and capabilities are worth the investment IMHO.

Jonathan

Regarding low speed operation, I think we should wait to see how the smaller S gauge DCS locomotives perform. S gauge is about 1/4 the mass of O gauge. Some MTH HO guys could give us some insight, if there are any.

MTH gave our HO club an SD70ACe.  On DCC, the slow speed behaviour is fine; I run that engine regularly.  They didn't give us a DCS system so no data on that front.

Brendan

Oman posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

NotInWI posted:

I have no experience in DCS, I don't think I would buy the Full DCS system unless MTH really starts pumping out product I like. Can I run an ABA with the cheaper DCS lite system???

Ben

Bingo. That's exactly what I told Andy E. about 3 years ago. I said I don't think people in S are going to jump to their DCS system until MTH puts out enough product to convince them. Andy seemed to think once the F units came out that people would jump onboard. I guess we will see.

DCS is a good system. Not great, but good. It provides a lot of flexibility and is very easy to use compared to DCC. Consisting multiple engines is simple in DCS, not so much in DCC. However, you are locked into the proprietary DCS system. You have limited ability to change sounds (very few people do) where DCC makes this a common practice. Slow speed operation is not as smooth or as low in DCS as good DCC decoders can achieve. The DCS system does have the Wi-Fi capability now which is nice, but that can be done in DCC (albeit more difficult) as well. 

Basically DCS is more user friendly and cheaper, but less capable and expandable. If you are aren't going all in on DCC then I recommend DCS or DCS commander at least. You can run them on AC or DC, but the extra functions and capabilities are worth the investment IMHO.

Jonathan

Regarding low speed operation, I think we should wait to see how the smaller S gauge DCS locomotives perform. S gauge is about 1/4 the mass of O gauge. Some MTH HO guys could give us some insight, if there are any.

I have run MTH ProtoSounds engines in HO and O scale. The HO engines run better, but they do not perform as well as the best DCC decoders. I would call them adequate. The HO engines definitely perform better than their O scale brothers. That's what I'm waiting to find out... Do the S scale models behave more like O or HO? If they do perform well then I will likely purchase them and leave them as is. If they don't then there really is no reason for me to buy the new MTH engines as I would prefer to have ESU LokSound decoders anyways. I'm patiently (not) awaiting a video review... Maybe I will just order a couple and see how it goes.

I ran the F3s I have with DCS and they ran as well at slow speeds as my Legacy engines.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I ran the F3s I have with DCS and they ran as well at slow speeds as my Legacy engines.

Thanks Bill. My ask is that we remove the subjective nature and opinions from the  equation and provide objective data please. What speed in scale MPH will they maintain at a minimum? We each have our own opinion for what "slow" means. Example: I do not consider anything over 1 smph to be slow. Then there is the question of jackrabbit starts. Does it accelerate smoothly or does it jump from 0 to its slowest speed?

This is a video  I shot of my On30 4-6-0. This is what I consider slow:

laming posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam."

In the case of Lionel, I feel that is a terminal business model.  (In the case of MTH, they already have built-in "scale" capability via their SHS purchase, for ALL of SHS products were "scale" oriented.)

Case in point:

Take a look at the avatars of those that frequent this S scale forum. With rare exception(s), baby boomers are the significant majority. Those here of the AF persuasion typically "connect" with AF on account of childhood/youthful connections.  Fact:  As a whole, AF fan or not, we're "aging-out".  That is, frankly speaking, at a specific, yet undetermined time, our tickets are getting punched, and we're ending our stint on this planet and passing on. 

In the case of AF, the enthusiasts are "aging out" in far greater numbers than new entrants that are coming into the AF side of S scale. Over the coming years there will be many, many large collections of AF-type S scale that will be hitting the market place because of attrition.  There won't be large numbers of enthusiasts vying to acquire pieces from those collections, for very few people are entering the AF side of S scale to replace those leaving.

To me, that is a terminal business model for Lionel to pursue: Catering to a demographic that is aging-out and will be VERY much reduced within the coming (not so short) years.

So, Lionel will either milk the AF sugar titty until it runs dry and then they're done with S... or they will start figuring out ways to tap into the younger HO modelers that want larger trains without the size of O/G scales, and, as we all know, S is that size.

Frankly, I don't think Lionel is all that interested in the longevity of S, or they just fail to grasp the facts.

Simply put: Without a huge infusion of new AF-type enthusiasts, AF is not the long term future for S scale.

I don't mean to be depressing, it just seems to me that SOMETHING needs to be a wake up call to Lionel (in particular) to seriously reconsider their current business model IF they want to continue within the S scale segment of the hobby on the long term.

Also, from what I'm reading (and what I see on other forums), HO is still experiencing some growth. And, there are far more "younger" (i.e. age 30's - 50's) people within it than is found in either O or S. Growth wise, HO and N are doing all right... it's the larger scales that are contracting.

I don't want to join the debate, but for information purposes, I'll add a data point.  I spoke to Doug Peck a couple of weeks ago and he told me he is adding an average of 5 new customers per week. I didn't ask him about scale v. high rail revenue, but I have read others report that Port Lines' mix is 80%+ high rail related sales.

I have talked with American Models, Lionel, and MTH about the breakdown in their sales for S and other gauges where appropriate when I have interviewed them.  About 15% scale 85% high rail is what they have told me.  

I don't think these companies generally work too far in the future in their planning.  The objective is to make a profit now.  If Gilbert style products have the best chance at making money that is what Lionel will produce especially if 85% of the market is in that mode.  MTH bought SHS, who spoke well to scale S, but in my talks with them scale will not be their primary effort in S.  MTH made no mention to follow exactly in the footsteps of SHS where scale was their primary effort.

If HO and N are what's growing in the future I suppose manufactures will gravitate that way. However there are still people buying O and S so there is a market there till we all pass. 

Someone earlier said us high rail people are the "Silent Majority" in S and I agree with them. 85% of the posts here are not high rail, but probably scale people, which is fine.  We just need to keep talking here to keep this hobby alive. 

Jonnyspeed:  1 MPH is just barely moving.  The F3 will creep in DCS the same as my Legacy SD70.  It did not jolt as I applied more juice.  If you are happy with your Legacy diesels you will be happy with the F3

Just so every one knows, you can run Lionel Legacy and TMCC engines with a MTH DCS system. You must purchase a MTH DCS system, an add one of the TMCC components and a cable into the works. For exact details, you will have to question the guys on the O gauge page. You cannot do the reverse with TMCC. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I have talked with American Models, Lionel, and MTH about the breakdown in their sales for S and other gauges where appropriate when I have interviewed them.  About 15% scale 85% high rail is what they have told me.  

I don't think these companies generally work too far in the future in their planning.  The objective is to make a profit now.  If Gilbert style products have the best chance at making money that is what Lionel will produce especially if 85% of the market is in that mode.  MTH bought SHS, who spoke well to scale S, but in my talks with them scale will not be their primary effort in S.  MTH made no mention to follow exactly in the footsteps of SHS where scale was their primary effort.

If HO and N are what's growing in the future I suppose manufactures will gravitate that way. However there are still people buying O and S so there is a market there till we all pass. 

Someone earlier said us high rail people are the "Silent Majority" in S and I agree with them. 85% of the posts here are not high rail, but probably scale people, which is fine.  We just need to keep talking here to keep this hobby alive. 

If scale was SHS's primary focus, they wouldn't have shipped product with HiRail wheels and Flyer compatible couplers, nor would they have designed an electronic e-unit.

SHS realized that Flyer/Hirail was 85% of the market and built their products accordingly.  That's why us scale guys had to buy our own couplers.  Don Thompson even said the cars he chose were because they were visually compatible with Flyer (for the most part.)

Rusty

Thanks for the reply Bill. The reason I was hoping for a video or actual measurement is because I am not happy with the Legacy diesel's performance. I was hoping MTH would be better out of the box. I'll just have to order one and make my own evaluation.

Let's also agree that the terms we use in S are a bit ambiguous and don't necessarily align with other scales.

For example, the term Hirail was coined to describe the practice of running 3 rail toy trains on layouts that were highly detailed and realistic looking. This term described the layout, not the models. In S we use it to describe the models and the track. It is the middle ground between Scale and Flyer that allows people to run old and new. But it is very difficult to nail down what it really means.

On one extreme you have tubular flyer track, AF equipment, AM, and SHS all running together with Hirail wheels and lobster claw couplers. The other extreme would be something like what Brooks Stover has done - AM track, Hirail wheels, scale couplers, and finely detailed scenery. Are they both Hirail? I suppose so. I have also seen hand-laid code 125 track with "Hirail" models that looks as good as any "Scale" layout. It can all be a bit confusing.

Even "scale" isn't really scale... code 110 wheels and Kadee couplers are both larger than true 1:64 scale. That's where Proto:64 comes in.

I'm guilty of using terms incorrectly too. A lot of times when I refer to "scale" I mean dimensions and details. The size of the flanges doesn't bother me so much. In fact I've even considered hand-laying my own code 125 track and using "HiRail" equipment just because I like the Flyonel 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 so much.

Speaking of which... Somebody on here once said that SHS/MTH code 138 rail could be used in Fast Tracks fixtures. Can anyone verify that?

Thanks

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Jonnyspeed:  1 MPH is just barely moving.  The F3 will creep in DCS the same as my Legacy SD70.  It did not jolt as I applied more juice.  If you are happy with your Legacy diesels you will be happy with the F3

0.275 inches/second if I've done the math right.