MTH S Scale NYC F3: Preliminary Report

jonnyspeed posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I ran the F3s I have with DCS and they ran as well at slow speeds as my Legacy engines.

Thanks Bill. My ask is that we remove the subjective nature and opinions from the  equation and provide objective data please. What speed in scale MPH will they maintain at a minimum? We each have our own opinion for what "slow" means. Example: I do not consider anything over 1 smph to be slow. Then there is the question of jackrabbit starts. Does it accelerate smoothly or does it jump from 0 to its slowest speed?

This is a video  I shot of my On30 4-6-0. This is what I consider slow:

Geeze... A prototype steam locomotive can't be run that slow.  Not even a Shay.  There are too many factors involved, not the least of which is the mass of the locomotive and mechanical forces.  The independent brake valve would have to manipulated constantly while working against throttle and Johnson bar settings to even attempt it.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I ran the F3s I have with DCS and they ran as well at slow speeds as my Legacy engines.

Thanks Bill. My ask is that we remove the subjective nature and opinions from the  equation and provide objective data please. What speed in scale MPH will they maintain at a minimum? We each have our own opinion for what "slow" means. Example: I do not consider anything over 1 smph to be slow. Then there is the question of jackrabbit starts. Does it accelerate smoothly or does it jump from 0 to its slowest speed?

This is a video  I shot of my On30 4-6-0. This is what I consider slow:

Geeze... A prototype steam locomotive can't be run that slow.  Not even a Shay.  There are too many factors involved, not the least of which is the mass of the locomotive and mechanical forces.  The independent brake valve would have to manipulated constantly while working against throttle and Johnson bar settings to even attempt it.

Rusty

Not true. When a train pulls from a stop with a consist, even a small one, starts at zero and slowly builds up speed in a progressive fashion. Having motor control like this allows you to replicate this. Having a decoder that jumps from 0-2 mph immediately is a pet peeve of mine. I've owned a lot of MTH engines in the past that exhibited this behavior so that's why I asked.

I feel like you have an opposing opinion of just about everything I post lately. If that's the case then so be it. But my wants and desires are no different than what HO modelers DEMAND from their products.  I simply want to see S elevated up to the level (or as close as possible) of HO. Probably won't happen, but that's what I want and I'm prepared to buy.

I take the point on smooth starts. A high momentum setting helps a lot. If we call the speed in the video 1smph, I think it may be less, the lowest I realistically use is about 4 times that speed, provided the engine did not jack rabbit start. The newest Legacy engines are really close and work for me. Also the first S Legacy engine, the BigBoy has excellent low speed performance. These engines run slower than highrail knuckle couplers will couple. 

I see people who put DCC in their AM engines and get the performance in the video. I do not have either DCC or a new MTH F3 to test their new engine to see how it runs on DCC. 

My personal view is I would rather see more product released sooner with the current performance than have less product released later to fund and allow control system redesign and reprogramming. I also like the voluminous smoke offered by Lionel and hopefully MTH in S gauge.  DCC offers some very impressive performance. 

jonnyspeed posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I ran the F3s I have with DCS and they ran as well at slow speeds as my Legacy engines.

Thanks Bill. My ask is that we remove the subjective nature and opinions from the  equation and provide objective data please. What speed in scale MPH will they maintain at a minimum? We each have our own opinion for what "slow" means. Example: I do not consider anything over 1 smph to be slow. Then there is the question of jackrabbit starts. Does it accelerate smoothly or does it jump from 0 to its slowest speed?

This is a video  I shot of my On30 4-6-0. This is what I consider slow:

Geeze... A prototype steam locomotive can't be run that slow.  Not even a Shay.  There are too many factors involved, not the least of which is the mass of the locomotive and mechanical forces.  The independent brake valve would have to manipulated constantly while working against throttle and Johnson bar settings to even attempt it.

Rusty

Not true. When a train pulls from a stop with a consist, even a small one, starts at zero and slowly builds up speed in a progressive fashion. Having motor control like this allows you to replicate this. Having a decoder that jumps from 0-2 mph immediately is a pet peeve of mine. I've owned a lot of MTH engines in the past that exhibited this behavior so that's why I asked.

I feel like you have an opposing opinion of just about everything I post lately. If that's the case then so be it. But my wants and desires are no different than what HO modelers DEMAND from their products.  I simply want to see S elevated up to the level (or as close as possible) of HO. Probably won't happen, but that's what I want and I'm prepared to buy.

I guess it all depends on you point of view and which prototype locomotive you've operated.  I was more concerned with whether the track was clear ahead, nobody was trying to jump on as we began to move, the slack coming out, brake test, not slipping and finally accelerating (which isn't linear) to worry about if I was doing 1mph or less starting out.

With my models, I find that most of them start out satisfactorily without worrying about the exact speed.

Rusty