MTH UP Veranda Turbine (updated 8/16 with fixes)

Rich,

I'm reasonably sure that there is in fact a 2nd smoke unit under the front set of exhaust grills. There were 2 smoke units on the original PS-1 unit with on-off switches mounted under the frame and there is a good chance that you'll find the same or smoke volume pots under your frame. The smoke has to be refilled through the front grills which may appear to be just gray plastic underneath, but taper down to a hole above the front smoke unit.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA   

Dave,

  Thanks.  I'm eager to find out, unfortunately I have a bad motor and its in the box for repair.  I'm certain it will work perfectly through this awesome double curve switch you made.  You know... the kind MTH should make along with a host of other new switches.  But why try to build on such a great realistic looking track system? 

B.T.W. The reason I'm shipping it back is not the motor, but because of wobble. Two of the trucks are noticeably rocking.  This was like this right out of the box and nothing to do with me lowering it.  Some of the wheels don't seem to be on center with the axle and I don't see any way I can fix it.  If anyone gets one of these engines I would recommend checking that out.  Mine is pretty bad and would not look good on video.

Chug,

  These photos should clear things up.  You can see both smoke units line up with only the round holes in the shell.  The front one if far from the turbine vent.  Each smoke unit has that gray, threaded metal extension to reach the hole.  Its height is the room you have to work with if trying to use tubing which is why lowering it or angling it would be necessary.  There is not a lot of room.  I think I could make it work by centering and angling the smoke unit.  I'm going to try it when I get the engine back from MTH. 

Are you saying the wheels are not centered on the axles?  The wheels were not drilled correctly and are now rotating eccentrically about the axle centerline causing the rocking of the truck?  If so, that sucks and is a quality issue that MTH should focus on.

After hearing about your bad motor and wheel issue I am starting to get buyers remorse for my Veranda which I purchased recently and is in transit to me.  I wonder if MTH Quality is dropping?  I thought MTH checked all their engines out before they shipped them to dealers?

Mine should be here in a day or so and I will test it asap to see if there are any problems.  I'm not too concerned about the smoke location, but motor and trucks need to be right.  Will let everyone know what I find.

Harold

I should have mine this coming week and will report also. I just hope the the trucks and motors are not a problem thru out the entire run. 

Dave

>>>These photos should clear things up.  You can see both smoke units line up with only the round holes in the shell.  The front one if far from the turbine vent.  Each smoke unit has that gray, threaded metal extension to reach the hole<<<

I could re-route the smoke but I cant do anything about a driver drilled eccentrically!  Major caliber Yuck-O!   Lemme know what's going on with this, so I can cancel my order if this is an across the board issue ! 

Rich,

Regarding the smoke units, that is a major change from what MTH did previously and it was apparently brought about by component packaging considerations. I think this is disappointing and a step backwards. The other problems are a major concern and I hope that you get those resolved.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA 

This thing must be a beast with 4 motors. Hmmm 2 tach readers.

Scott C.

Looks like the first instance I've seen of a Proto3 Slave board.

Jim

Does anyone know what the drawbar pull of this engine is? The Lionel TMCC Veranda is a massive puller with just two motors; the Lionel Vision Centipede is two units with two motors in each and can pull a load of freight or passenger cars. Both of these models are die-cast and so are pretty heavy in their own right.

I think that the MTH UP80 coal turbine has four motors but it's roughly twice the size of the Veranda. It's not obvious to me that there's a great advantage in putting four motors in this particular engine, and the extra motors and electronics mean that there's no room to place the main smoke unit where it needs to be i.e. under the turbine exhaust.

ptalar,

Don't worry, you will likely not have any problems.  I have never had problems like these from MTH.  I'm not complaining about them.  It is what it is.  I will get it fixed and I wil have an awesome engine.   MTH does do quality testing, but I doubt they check for wobble.

 I will say though that I think this engine is more suscepticble to minor flaws in the wheels because these are two axle trucks and this long engine rests on just two spacers with about 1in surface area each.  Three axle trucks would average out imperfections easier.   

 And yes, I am saying they were slightly eccentric and not just a bent axle.  I had the unit running on its side and could see the problem.  I can straighten a bent axle but can't do anything about eccentric. 

Hancock52,

   I think this engine will pull more cars than you care to pull.  My son and I quickly hooked up two trains I had on my layout (box cars, and 1/2 coal cars) to make 40 car train, and it pull them like there was nothing behind it.  I could creep at 2mph or 50mph.  No problem.  I'm sure adding the right amount of weight would make it outperform the Lionel version with only two motors if it doen't already out pull it.

Chug,

Thanks I'm sure I will get it fixed.  MTH did not hestate to have me send it back even after I told them I modified the pilot and lowered it.  This problem existed before I made these changes.  I told them if I'm at fault in any way, I will pay for the repairs. There is no way I could have made the wheels eccentric.  If you have a wobble, they will fix it.

Since I have the P-2 Propane Turbine with two smoke units installed at nearly the same spots as the Veranda, I was curious to see how smoke made its way to the large grate on this engine. Didn't take long to notice the addition of a thin black plastic enclosure installed on the cab underside under the grate that allowed smoke from the unit to make its way over the electronics to exit from the grate.

I'm sure if that part was still available, those with the Veranda could easily fix the problem. 

I'm wondering if they forgot to install it?

Joe

Received my Veranda freight set today from Nassau Hobbies.  After initial inspection I noticed no damage.  So far all is good. Will try to get to the club this weekend to check the engine out.  I understand what they are talking about in regard to the turbine smoke exhaust.  On my original Veranda I bought some 13, 14 years ago the turbine exhaust was the actual smoke unit out and the place where you input the smoke fluid.  On this latest version they have a little opening/port on the deck separate from the turbine exhaust where the smoke unit operates from.  What is with that?  This must have been a cost cutting move since you have less parts, I think, or there was a design/packaging/installation problem with this version.  Another reason might be that the manufacturer screwed up and since the engine has been delayed for so long they, MTH, decided to release it to us and hope for the best.  Other than that, I don't get it. Why would they change the exhaust port from the initial Proto 1 Veranda some 13 years ago?    The engine does appear to have more detail over all.  It is still a keeper.  Will report this weekend on performance and any defects.

Waiting for my set also. 

According to MTH there will be no fix for where the smoke comes out. I did mention the piece of plastic that Joe above mentioned That was in the propane turbine. They said they would look into it. Lets hope so. 

Yes my original Veranda had a smoke collector that funneled the smoke from the smoke unit to the Turbine exhaust. Don't remember the exact details.  But it was another piece plus a gasket.  These new smoke units do not appear to have gaskets on the shell.  The metal tube, exhaust port, is right at the port exit on the shell.  I suspect cost savings or somebody forgot the engineering for the smoke transition piece and communicate to the manufacturer.  Even if they did come up with a fix they would have to come up with a plug where the smoke exhaust port is.  Gets complicated.  Has to paint match also and look prototypical.   

Rich,

Here is a suggestion for the smoke unit:  Build a shallow tray out of styrene, about 1/8" deep, and glue it to the underside of the roof.  Seal it all the way around with caulk.  The bottom of the tray faces the bottom of the locomotive.   Make the tray large enough to cover the turbine exhausts and the MTH fill/exhaust hole.  Then match drill a hole in the tray to be in the same spot as the existing hole.  Shorten the extension by 1/8", or however deep you made your tray.  Glue a thin rubber flap to the underside of the shell roof so it covers the hole.  But glue it on one side only, so you can push the flap down and out of the way to refill the unit. Reassemble.   The smoke should now come out of the turbine vent.

That's a very good idea from John - wish I had thought of it! A tray would also have the advantage that the smoke would flow out of the whole width of the turbine exhaust and not just a smoke unit refilling stack. This would also save trying to angle the smoke unit back towards the exhaust.

The simple fix is to ask MTH to offer the same smoke tray and gasket used in the previous Veranda and propane turbine and end the smoke issue. Don't forget that tray was sealed with a gasket on the cab underside. It allowd smoke to exit from the grates but also allowed smoke fluid to make its way to the smoke unit chamber without soaking electronics mounted below.

I get the feeling this had to be a classic engineering screwup.

It's easy to see with the cab removed how without that plastic tray they could have mistook a previously sealed air intake vent molded into the shell directly above the smoke unit instead of the huge turbine grates further back on the shell as the place to vent smoke..

Joe 

With the 8 axle chassis developed for the Veranda, it would now seem easy for MTH to produce an engine body for a U50 so we can field U50s, Verandas and U50Cs.  Con-Cor, in N Scale, produces Verandas and U50s in the same production cycle:  http://www.con-cor.com/033021.html

The Verandas and U50s were both 83 feet 6.5 inches in length.

I sent this message to MTH today.  We need to shake them up.  The only way to fix this correctly is provide a new shell with the proper smoke transitions.

Submitted on Friday, May 31, 2013 - 09:35
Submitted by user:
Submitted values are:

Name: Phillip Talarico
Email Address: ptalar@roadrunner.com
Subject of your Email: Other
Your message: As a long time customer of MTH I am disappointed with the new 
Veranda Turbine I received yesterday.  The turbine exhaust is misplaced on 
this latest version of the Veranda.  The original Veranda you issued in 
1998/1999 has the smoke exhausting through the turbine exhaust as it should. 
This latest version has a separate small port for the exhaust of smoke and 
its not from the turbine exhuast.  How could you screw up so bad?  You had it 
right 13 14 years ago.  What happened?  You must have people working for you 
in engineering and design and manufacturing who don't have any historical 
knowledge of what MTH has done in the past and how the prototypical engine 
worked.  I am very disappointed.  I could sell the Veranda but I will 
probably take a loss as anybody knowledgable will not want it.  Very 
dissatisfied customer.

MTH has already done the U50c; it was originally announced in their Premier 2000 v.3 catalog and again in the 2004 v.2 catalog.

John,

  Thats a great suggestion and sounds easier.  The only downside is I wanted faster exhaust speed like the prototype.  My angled unit idea would allow a straighter tube and fast air flow.  I would have to seal around the tube and apply fluid directly to the tube opening.  The downside is a narrow stream of smoke.  However your idea, the wide exhaust would slow it down, but I could narrow or shape the airflow of the tray inside maybe to come out two of the four vents.  Hmmm.  I wish I had the engine now to try.  Unless MTH has some part, I'm going to build something to get it to work correctly.

Phil,

  I sincerely doubt MTH will provide a new shell.  I think the best scenario would be that they have or could make a tray like John suggests that could be added to the shell.  I doubt they have it or they would have used it.  I am dissappointed as well and think they should try to make a fix.  But if not, I can live with it, and I will fix it myself.  B.T.W. I agree with David, telling someone they screwed up is not the best motivational tactic.

Interested to hear if anyone else has the wobble.  Someone should have theirs by now.

Rich

>>I sent this message to MTH today.  We need to shake them up.  The only way to fix this correctly is provide a new shell with the proper smoke transitions.<<

As I've pointed out in a previous post, all that is required to fix the problem is having MTH make available (see photo) the one missing part that will redirect smoke to the proper opening.

As you can see, the piece is screwed on the cab underside and has a funnel hole directly above smoke unit that fits on the smoke unit stack itself.  Its channeled to direct fluid to the smoke chamber from the fill point (grate) Likewise,  it directs smoke over the electronics back to the proper opening.

Joe

I'm far more concerned about the wobble issue than the smoke.  Smoke can be fixed, perhaps with some difficulty, but fixed.  Eccentric wheels are totally bad news! Hoping that the chooch in question here has a traction tire issue, because if it's the wheel...there will be consequences far beyond the Veranda Turbine!  As for a U50D, there will be major problems with a four motor set-up in a scale width hood for such a model.   Best bet now would be to hope for a Standard Turbine based on the #57.

Rich/Dave,

There is no excuse for what MTH has done with this Veranda.  Especially when they had it right 14 years ago.  You can sugar coat all you want.  But dissatisfied long time customers need to tell it like it is. 

Phil

I'll be setting ours up and testing it today.

The smoke issue is another indication of "slip-ups" in engineering and/or manufacturing that seem to be occurring more frequently with some manufacturers.

For me the smoke isn't a huge issue as we don't use smoke from a lack of venting in the train room to handle the volume of smoke and the mess smoke makes on the locomotive shell after a while.

John,

 

  That's a great suggestion and sounds easier.  The only downside is I wanted faster exhaust speed like the prototype.

Rich,

Mask off the exhaust so it is just a narrow slit across the full width of the port.  The smaller area of the opening will increase the exhaust flow, while still making it go across the whole width.

(PS thanks for your kind words on the other thread)

As I've pointed out in a previous post, all that is required to fix the problem is having MTH make available (see photo) the one missing part that will redirect smoke to the proper opening.

JC642:  That looks like a great candidate for a resin casting (see MWB for that) or Rapid Prototyping (see TNT 53 for that)

ptalar:

I understand your disappointment in MTH now messing something up that they once got right.  They might make that part available.  But for me personally, I always find it less aggravating, and more satisfactory to fix the problem myself.

Well there you have it...the solution.  Hopefully, MTH will provide one.  It certainly looks like it will fit and work with the new model.  You can only wonder why it was not included in the first place???

Hi Rich and ptalar, I have an older MTH GG-1 with the long wheelbase truck ***'y and experienced what you have. I put the truck assembly on a flat table and rolled it back and forth and watched the rear driver (the one with the traction tire groove) wiggle from side to side. I disassembled the opposite side driver wheel from the axle, chucked it into my hand drill, and found the stub axle end was bent, most likely during assembly.

I tried my best to get the other driver off the bent axle using my drill press, but it wanted no part of it. Finally heated the wheel (I wanted to keep the driver, axles I've got) with my propane torch and was able to drive out the axle with a punch and hammer. Jeez, that thing was really on there! I replaced the bent axle with a spare one and re-assembled everything into the truck. Problem solved. All the wheel sets rolled straight and smooth. I've never run across any off center drilled wheels, but the axle shafts, that's another story. I'd love to see how MTH assembles their "China block" trucks. Bill

Spent some time with the new Turbine today.

Runs great ... forward.

It has a problem backing through any switch however.

The photo shows what happens.

When it's going forward the third truck is tipped slightly forward and shows what appears to be a warp in the piece on which the truck is mounted.

It looks like plastic but I can't tell for sure.  Plastic.  That couldn't be could it?

When backing up the truck tips worse and derails when trying to go through a turnout; all the turnouts are 80 or greater.  This one in the photo is a curved #6.

Not cool.

Have to call MTH.

Talking something ironic, I was watching a YouTube video of the MTH HO veranda turbine  and the smoke comes out of the vents just like it should. 

Now if they can do it in HO! I will await your answers.

Kerrigan,

    I'm wondering if your rollers are bent off center.  The rollers can get caught on the side of the frog causing the truck to get pushed off the rails.  My Lionel Challenger has this problem.  Make sure they are centered and square.  You can take the roller off that truck to verify that is the problem.

   So no wobble? 

BasementBill,

   My axles were not bent.  If they were I would have tried to straighten them.  Sounds like you did a good job fixing your problem. 

Rich

I have the 1998 PS1 version of the veranda. As others have said, the easy fix for the smoke issue is to install the black tray and gasket from the earlier veranda and propane turbines, if they are available. You would also have to cap off the hole in the shell. This is solid on the earlier versions. From the pictures, it looks like the boss for the mounting screw in the PS3 version is still in the shell.

One other item, I would guess the not yet released PS3 version of the propane turbine will be the same way, unless enough people complain to MTH about this issue.

I would argue that at this point the PS1 version of the MTH Veranda upgraded to PS2 would be a very valuable engine.

Nice to see the lads trying to work together, to solve yet another new purchase problem. Seems almost routine, that proud new owner's show and tell threads end up going in the same direction... something needs fixing.

Another "buzz" killer.

Rick