@H1000 posted:still new in the box... he paid $90
They were 39.99 at Madison Hardware in the 1960's
@MartyE posted:Well what I meant is that everyone is seeing an increase so I suspect Lionel has to offset the cost like everyone else. It's business.
To be honest, IMO, MTH isn't going anywhere for a while. They basically said so in the release above where they state a new Z4000 type transformer would be redesigned for a new processor.
To be honest, I'll believe their longevity when I see it. 
I hope for the best, but I prepare for the worst. 
@ADCX Rob posted:They were 39.99 at Madison Hardware in the 1960's
So I had my dad check his records on the "new" ZW he purchased. He bought in 1968 (the PW ZW last appearance in a catalog was in 1966) and it turns out that the ZW was actually $65. He also bought a few accessories and with the shipping, the total bill was around $91.
He remembered seeing it in the 66 catalog, forgot about in 67 because Lionel didn't have a catalog and when he saw the dismal 68 catalog he knew he better get one now because it's likely to never get an original one again. Lionel's future was very uncertain at the time.
Z4000's are popular and people like them, hence they have been mostly unchanged for 23 years (albeit minor changes from the first 1998 model). It's kind of an end of era for them and now is your last chance to get one. I'm sure the demand will be high and the price is set to accommodate. Will the successor be better?... some folks are not willing to take that chance nor do they like change.
@superwarp1 posted:Even twenty years ago I was not impressed with the prices of transformers from Lionel and MTH. Decided to build my own. Purchased a power transformer from Newark 120 volt primary 18 volt secondary at 20 amps max. Fused the primary, fused the secondary, enclosed in a grounded metal box connected to. TPC300/TIU combo and I’ve never looked back. With that price I’m really glad I went the way I did.
I'd like to see a picture of that. I just might build one myself.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I don't need no stinkin' levers on my transformers!
Yup. I'm in the same boat. With all command locomotives (TMCC/Legacy/DCS) my two 180W bricks are all I need. No need for throttles when the remote does everything I need it to do.
@H1000 posted:So I had my dad check his records on the "new" ZW he purchased. He bought in 1968 (the PW ZW last appearance in a catalog was in 1966) and it turns out that the ZW was actually $65. He also bought a few accessories and with the shipping, the total bill was around $91.
Many people don't consider actual costs at the time. Calculating inflation, in today's dollars your dad paid $503.00 for that ZW, and $704 with the accessories. Maybe a fair price at the time, but not really a bargain. Not many people were dropping $500+ on toy train transformers in those days.
@breezinup posted:Many people don't consider actual costs at the time. Calculating inflation, in today's dollars your dad paid $503.00 for that ZW, and $704 with the accessories. Maybe a fair price at the time, but not really a bargain. Not many people were dropping $500+ on toy train transformers in those days.
All very true, Dad held off as long as thought he could an almost missed the boat. The PW ZW was the best of the best for the time and one pays a premium for that especially when you want a new one and they have been out of production for two years. While the Z4000 has a few technical features (trivial to some) over the ZW-L I don't think the Z4000 value point is there anymore after this price hike. You have to really like your PS1 engines and pure sine wave output to justify the new cost.
From 1966 to 1998 what high power premium transformers were available to buy? This is why dad never regretted buying that expensive ZW. If memory serves me correct the Z4000 was the next available option over a PW ZW in 1998 and the ZW-C soon after in 1999 (someone correct me if I am wrong on that year). That brief time was critical to MTH to develop a following for the Z4000 as Lionel had nothing to compete with it.
The pricing I've heard for the following...
Cab1L / Base 1L set current MSRP is $249.99 will be $299.99 MSRP +$50
Legacy Powermaster current MSRP is $99.99 will be $209.99 MSRP +$110
Powerhouse 180 current MSRP is $149.99 will be $209.99 MSRP +$60
GW180 current MSRP is $279.99 will be $329.99 MSRP +$50
So it really doesn't surprise me that the Z4K is increasing but what does surprise me is they are not honoring previous pre-orders.
To sum it up this is becoming a rich man's hobby.
@feet posted:To sum it up this is becoming a rich man's hobby.
As has been said on here many times, it was never cheap, at least not the new stuff. Someone pointed out that a ZW in the late 60's was the equivalent of around 600 bucks today, Mario's for memorial day had the ZW-1 for like 635 (not any more, that was when the regular price was like 750). Look at the price of 50's trains in the day at today's levels, it wasn't cheap. Lot of us got used to when PW stuff was to be found where you could buy a huge box for like 50 bucks, but that was because the market was depressed on the used side.
Heck, I just saw an athearn Caboose with sound in MRR, and HO scale one, and it was like 149 bucks with the sound module, they had an athearn hopper that was like 45 bucks (MSRP, I understand, but still).
@bigkid posted:As has been said on here many times, it was never cheap, at least not the new stuff. Someone pointed out that a ZW in the late 60's was the equivalent of around 600 bucks today, Mario's for memorial day had the ZW-1 for like 635 (not any more, that was when the regular price was like 750). Look at the price of 50's trains in the day at today's levels, it wasn't cheap. Lot of us got used to when PW stuff was to be found where you could buy a huge box for like 50 bucks, but that was because the market was depressed on the used side.
Heck, I just saw an athearn Caboose with sound in MRR, and HO scale one, and it was like 149 bucks with the sound module, they had an athearn hopper that was like 45 bucks (MSRP, I understand, but still).
No argument that good quality O gauge was never cheap. However, not that long ago one could pursue HO or N on a budget, but not any more. IMO, that's where the huge price increases are. Granted, the products are far more sophisticated now (DCC, details on cars, etc.), but I miss the days when I could tell someone that a person with any budget could participate in our hobby.
“To sum it up this is becoming a rich man’s hobby”
This is true if you want high tech electronics, but you can buy a rebuilt postwar transformer and a nice MPC engine and cars for a very modest sum. If the budget is even tighter you can pick up a Marx set and some used track and have more fun than a barrel of monkeys. I know a gentleman who is on a very tight budget, he brings ten dollars to a train show. He picks up broken Plasticville and maybe a Marx car or two. He always shows me pictures of his layout and it is beautiful. It was built from scrap lumber but you would never know it by looking at it. I truly believe he is having as much fun as the guy with the unlimited budget.
They can raise prices all they want, and I’ll continue not to purchase all I want. Time will tell if the sales remain, whether or not the hobby can absorb these price increases. I for one have plenty of stuff to keep me busy for years without buying anything new.
Hi Guys new to the hobby- would probably be interested in a used Z-4000 for my MTH 7 train (64 worlds fair) & my Baby Blue Comet 263e 2.0 The rest in old ready to run Lionchief sets Polar Express Santa Fe super Chief & an one old K-line Coca-Cola set- My question is: what is a fair price for a z-4000 & what were the old serial numbers of the supposed bad z-4000`s That I had seen a tread about ( If even true) or should I stick with my z-1000 ( and CW80) that came with the sets?
I 
wanted to build my first 6x8 over & under with the help of a friend into the hobby & willing to help but don`t want to get a bum transformer or ripped off either...P.S. where would be the best areas to put the bus connections on this as well- I have the MTH 24 Terminal block & what gauge wire for power to each leg? ( was told every 3-4 ft of track?)
Any advice would be greatly appreciated...Thank you!
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@H1000 posted:All very true, Dad held off as long as thought he could an almost missed the boat. The PW ZW was the best of the best for the time and one pays a premium for that especially when you want a new one and they have been out of production for two years. While the Z4000 has a few technical features (trivial to some) over the ZW-L I don't think the Z4000 value point is there anymore after this price hike. You have to really like your PS1 engines and pure sine wave output to justify the new cost.
From 1966 to 1998 what high power premium transformers were available to buy? This is why dad never regretted buying that expensive ZW. If memory serves me correct the Z4000 was the next available option over a PW ZW in 1998 and the ZW-C soon after in 1999 (someone correct me if I am wrong on that year). That brief time was critical to MTH to develop a following for the Z4000 as Lionel had nothing to compete with it.
IMO, the ZW-C was like a Chevy Vega. It did more to promote the competition than the competition did for itself. So I don't agree that a "brief time" was critical to MTH. I think what was critical to MTH was a vastly superior, rock solid basic piece of equipment that was needed on almost every layout with modern electronics.
Gerry
@gmorlitz posted:I don't agree that a "brief time" was critical to MTH. I think what was critical to MTH was a vastly superior, rock solid basic piece of equipment that was needed on almost every layout with modern electronics.
Gerry
Unfortunately that's not what the first batch of Z-4000's turned out to be, according to some of our colleagues.
@Sal V pointed out above that he has a concern over those early units, apparently based upon comments he's heard on this forum. There have been a number of reports of problems. Too many to be discounted.
I agree that over time the Z-4000 has become a true flagship, but it wasn't automatically destined to be so. That rock solid design came from tweaks occurring over a number of years, not from instantaneous performance on day one.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Unfortunately that's not what the first batch of Z-4000's turned out to be, according to some of our colleagues.
@Sal V pointed out above that he has a concern over those early units, apparently based upon comments he's heard on this forum. There have been a number of reports of problems. Too many to be discounted.
I agree that over time the Z-4000 has become a true flagship, but it wasn't automatically destined to be so. That rock solid design came from tweaks occurring over a number of years, not from instantaneous performance on day one.
Mike
Yes Mike...Any ideas of how I can tell via serial numbers if it is an older model?
any particular year made? if yes can I tell the manufacture date on the box or on the serial number?
Any info would be greatly appreciated...Thanks!
@Sal V posted:Yes Mike...Any ideas of how I can tell via serial numbers if it is an older model?
any particular year made? if yes can I tell the manufacture date on the box or on the serial number?
Any info would be greatly appreciated...Thanks!
While I'm not saying you don't want a newer or newest models, I think this saying old ones are bad is also too much negative hype.
The serial numbers indicate date of manufacture so 0398 would be March of 1998 the first batch.
Since I repair these, and the local club has 4 and I have 3 myself I have a little bit of experience on what to expect. The voltage leak is the primary problem where when the handle is all the way down with no load on the track, then you might see a volt or two on the track. There is either the 4 capacitor modification or externally just apply a load- as simple as a light bulb and that can eliminate the stray voltage. Like I said, the club has 4 of these, of them 3 needed load or modification.
The second known thing is the early versions did not have handle tension (how stiff the handle is to move) adjustment screws on the bottom. This was added later. Truth is, I've never adjusted them, at most I replaced the worn out plunger on the most used oldest one.
Showing a newer model with the adjuster screw, old models just have a flat spot where this screw would be.
Again, at this point, I know others have more experience but I've repaired 6 of these for customers (typically a blown channel with a shorted MOSFET), I've done over 10 voltage leak mods for those who wanted them vs just using something external. Between the club and my own I use 5 of them every single week (mixed of old and new).
The first run of Z4000's had a serial number that startes with 0398 (March 1998). The Z4000 was updated and the second batch was 1198 (November 1998). The only notable changes that I can recognize is a firmware update (the newer z4k will display 0124 on startup and the older will display 0123), the addition of handle tension adjustments on the bottom of the transformer, and output rating of the track outputs was increase from 165 VA to 180 VA.
Since the November 1998 I don't know of any changes made until this latest run which required a redesign.
My dad has a first run Z4000 which he bought new when it first came out. Still works great today and running strong after 24 years of use.
My first release Z4000 still running strong no repairs
Anybody in L.I. area have a Z-4000 for sale at a reasonable price?
I`m a member of TMB club ( Train Masters of Babylon) out on L.I. New York ( I live in the Northport area 11768)
Let me know if someone can help me start off in this hobby on the right foot!- Thanks!!!-Sal
nice to see original thinking= make your own transformer.
anybody know where the mth z4000 are made, one of my thai factory worker friend had some mth work in her country.
currently playing with windings lionel zw to get it working on 240v
I have serial number 0398 XXXXX, the original run, and never had a problem. It is still in active use along with a 70-year-old ZW that has only been repaired once.
I personally would not buy a used transformer unless a) you completely trusted the seller, OR b) got a return warranty, OR c) tested the transformer under load yourself before purchase, OR d) you like to fix stuff.
I have a first generation and still working. However, I haven't used it a lot.
@England dave posted:nice to see original thinking= make your own transformer.
anybody know where the mth z4000 are made, one of my thai factory worker friend had some mth work in her country.
currently playing with windings lionel zw to get it working on 240v
Wouldn’t be easier to insert a 1:2 transformer in the power line. 500 watts on the bay for $40 US.
I made my own 500 watt transformer using a commercial grade transformer and a variac. Total cost about 60 bucks.
Pete
I have one Z4000 from 1998.
I picked up my pre-ordered Z4000 today at Chicagoland Hobby.
They had a few extra, so I also picked up another one.
@TRAINMANTIM & @harry’s Trains tested the transformers to ensure proper performance.
As for the price increase, it reminds me why I became an O-gauge model railroader:
I wanted an affordable hobby where I could save lots of money !!!
CB&Q Bill
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