@Bossman284 posted:

M.T.H. Z-4000 Price Change And Order Deadline

June 16, 2021 - M.T.H. Electric Trains will be reintroducing the Z-4000 for release in late 2021 at a higher MSRP that reflects significant manufacturing component price increases incurred this year. All previous unfulfilled orders for the Z-4000 promoted in the 2020 catalogs are canceled and can not be honored. These price increases are completely out of M.T.H.'s control and are the direct result of global supply and demand dynamics that have had crushing effects on virtually every industry as the world economy rebounds from the global pandemic.

The new MSRP for the Z-4000 is $649.95. While higher than the previous MSRP, the Z-4000 still carries the most value per watt than any other AC Output transformer in the market and is still considerably less than comparable models from other manufacturers. The Z-4000 has consistently been M.T.H.'s best-selling item, year in and year out, and model railroaders have come to rely on its consistent performance and reliability for nearly a quarter of a century.

The 2021 release will be the last year the Z-4000 will be produced in its current form as the microprocessor used to control the unit's power output will no longer be produced by electronic component manufacturers. While a replacement microprocessor hasn't yet been selected, when a new one is defined, the transformer will have to go through product safety testing and will likely be promoted as a completely different model. Such a model could be a year or two in the future, making this last run of Z-4000 transformers the best chance to obtain this legendary AC transformer before they're all gone.

The order deadline for the last production of Z-4000 transformers is June 30, 2021. Orders can be placed with any M.T.H. Authorized Retailer.

This is a good example of a post put into the wrong category.  Clearly the topic is talking about a specific MTH product thus should have been posted in the MTH products forum and not the 3-rail traditional forum.  It has been moved.  PLEASE help us by putting topics/posts in the most logical category based on the main focus of the topic.

A WHOPPING price increase!  It's making the 620 watt ZW-L look much better.

Wow, yes a big increase.  If I needed one, though, I'd still buy one.  I've been hooked since they were invented.  Makes me want to be extra careful with the 2 I have.

That's some unconventional math about value per watt, since the ZW-L is more than 50% more watts at less than 50% more dollars by my calculation. Of course, the ZW-L may see price increases as well.  Seems to me if you use Lionel's command system, the built-in powermasters make the ZW-L the choice.  The ability to remotely control the Z4000 used to be available through an add-on circuit board which hasn't been available for a while.  Probably comes down to brand preference in the end .  And whether you want to buy a transformer from a company that announced a year ago that they were going out of business.  Changes in plans happen, but it's a potential concern as to what MTH's future actually will be.  Then again, none of us is guaranteed tomorrow, especially at the age of the average 3 rail O gauge fan.

Note added:  I had no idea that fierce brand loyalty could lead to a mathematical error .  The ZW-L is generally available at higher discounts than the Z4000, but  even at MSRP, the cost per watt is $1.63 for the Z4000 and $1.45 for the ZW-L.  Just for those for whom math is not fun.  Not a huge difference, 12%.

My real concern is that there will be no new parts should the new ones fail...

Good old postwar zw😉

The one thing that the Z4000 has going for it is the close to pure sine wave, that's a factor in some calculations.  I ended up getting an MRC Pure Power 135 for my workbench so I could have a pure sine wave.

@Bossman284 posted:

My real concern is that there will be no new parts should the new ones fail...

A valid concern!

I worry about parts for both but at the new price the ZWL is the better value.

If I read this right they are kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel to make these, likely processor chips on hand. Even though the processing chips are not that likely to go IMO, it is taking a chance buying this for that reason. With the ZW-L it is in current production and I am assuming they have the parts (though with how fouled up global supply chain is these days, I wouldn't bet on it). Me I would buy the ZW-L, Marios had a great price on the ZW-L recently, I am only sorry I didn't have the funds, would have grabbed it at that price.

@bigkid posted:

Me I would buy the ZW-L, Marios had a great price on the ZW-L recently, I am only sorry I didn't have the funds, would have grabbed it at that price.

I don't need no stinkin' levers on my transformers!

I bought a ZLW a few months ago. I have been happy running both postwar and Lionel Legacy Locomotives with it.

Even twenty years ago I was not impressed with the prices of transformers from Lionel and MTH.  Decided to build my own.  Purchased a power transformer from Newark 120 volt primary 18 volt secondary at 20 amps max.  Fused the primary, fused the secondary, enclosed in a grounded metal box connected to. TPC300/TIU combo and I’ve never looked back.  With that price I’m really glad I went the way I did.

Hammond power transformer

The last ones again?  

"The last ones again? "

This is different. It's the final last ones .

@superwarp1 posted:

Even twenty years ago I was not impressed with the prices of transformers from Lionel and MTH.  Decided to build my own.  Purchased a power transformer from Newark 120 volt primary 18 volt secondary at 20 amps max.  Fused the primary, fused the secondary, enclosed in a grounded metal box connected to. TPC300/TIU combo and I’ve never looked back.  With that price I’m really glad I went the way I did.

Hammond power transformer

I try to work things in a DIY fashion when I can and was moving in this direction a few years ago as I've used Hammonds for power supplies for different projects over the years. The lack of circuit protection (I prefer more than just fuse protection for this application) held me back and at the time I was unaware of the PSX products. If I price the transformer and PSX now it comes to over $140 and I still need an enclosure. New PH-180s are available for $110 so the DIY method lost out this time.

I do use this simple method for powering all my switches. One step down from 120 to 14 vac, and a 4 amp fuse. This was the power supply for a PC satellite speaker system that is long gone.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I try to work things in a DIY fashion when I can and was moving in this direction a few years ago as I've used Hammonds for power supplies for different projects over the years. The lack of circuit protection (I prefer more than just fuse protection for this application) held me back and at the time I was unaware of the PSX products. If I price the transformer and PSX now it comes to over $140 and I still need an enclosure. New PH-180s are available for $110 so the DIY method lost out this time.

I do use this simple method for powering all my switches. One step down from 120 to 14 vac, and a 4 amp fuse. This was the power supply for a PC satellite speaker system that is long gone.

The Lionel Powerhouse 180s are now $209.99 MSRP up from $149.99.  Same reason given is material costs.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I try to work things in a DIY fashion when I can and was moving in this direction a few years ago as I've used Hammonds for power supplies for different projects over the years. The lack of circuit protection (I prefer more than just fuse protection for this application) held me back and at the time I was unaware of the PSX products. If I price the transformer and PSX now it comes to over $140 and I still need an enclosure. New PH-180s are available for $110 so the DIY method lost out this time.

I do use this simple method for powering all my switches. One step down from 120 to 14 vac, and a 4 amp fuse. This was the power supply for a PC satellite speaker system that is long gone.

Forgot to mention I added PSX-AC , and transformers were much cheaper back then.  I would bet the next run of Power houses will go up big time.

That figures, and these days, to be expected. I image PSX's will see price increases also. Better grab the products on the shelves now if you need them!

@superwarp1 posted:

Even twenty years ago I was not impressed with the prices of transformers from Lionel and MTH.  Decided to build my own.  Purchased a power transformer from Newark 120 volt primary 18 volt secondary at 20 amps max.  Fused the primary, fused the secondary, enclosed in a grounded metal box connected to. TPC300/TIU combo and I’ve never looked back.  With that price I’m really glad I went the way I did.

Hammond power transformer

Same here Gary. These can be had on the auctions sites currently. Driven with a 0-140v variac they output 20v max at 25 amps. I use multiple TMCC Lock-Ons as I made this before PSX-ACs were avaialble. All the parts to duplicate this could be found on the auction site for around 150 bucks including the fast breakers.

Pete

If you don't need the handles:   Charles Ro   L85226 PH 180  109.95   While they last.

@MartyE posted:

The Lionel Powerhouse 180s are now $209.99 MSRP up from $149.99.  Same reason given is material costs.

WOW, I didn't notice they went up again!  In a few short years they went from an MSRP of $99.99 to over twice that.  Sure glad I bought a bunch when they were selling for well under the original MSRP!

BTW, where did you get your info?  I looked on the Lionel site...

@Landsteiner posted:

That's some unconventional math about value per watt, since the ZW-L is more than 50% more watts at less than 50% more dollars by my calculation.

The "value per watt" statement is carefully crafted so that price is not the only criteria for "value".

"The "value per watt" statement is carefully crafted so that price is not the only criteria for "value".

I'm sure they were referring to the Z4000's spiritual superiority .

What the heck is "value per watt" anyway?  Not in my electronics textbook.

@Landsteiner posted:

What the heck is "value per watt" anyway?  Not in my electronics textbook.

Precisely.

Bricks and static transformers like Norton & Superwarp describe above are hands-down the best price per watt even after you add a couple of PSX-AC units. 360 watts of power for $88 is dirt cheap, and you're still under $200 after adding two PSX-AC's for protection.

The ZW series are all good transformers and the ZW-L has developed into a status symbol when you consider the price per watt cost.  The Z4000, while also a great transformer never had the nostalgic look that any ZW added to a layout. I know to my dad the postwar ZW was the pinnacle of power for his layouts not just because it ran everything but because of the look of the device. When he replaced it with a Z4000, he instantly knew it was better but the old ZW had to stay even if it only ran the trolley and some accessories. We tried to replace them both with a ZW-L but the modified sine wave from the ZW-L made his old postwar trains growl and run louder than normal, it didn't make the cut.

The best thing the Z4000 had up to now was the price per watt cost was better than any other high wattage conventional control transformer. If this is truly the last run of Z4k's and MTH is exiting the big powerhouse market, they sure are capitalizing on the demand.

I really liked the idea of adding nostalgia to my train room years ago.  So I added a postwar transformer to power some accessories.  One night I fell asleep in the train room for several hours and when I woke up the plastic handles had melted off.  I dished nostalgia after that.  The Z4000 is safe, has great circuit breakers, has the phone plug in for remotes using conventional, works great with DCS, has volts and amp gauges built in, and, ultimately in my mind, all of these benefits truly define "value" for my money.  I also like the look and design.

On the other hand, I use landscape transformers for accessory power because they offer cheap, safe, generic power for a generic use at a very low price per watt.  And if I were just running DCS, the powered bricks make sense, too.  In fact, when I first learned about DCS, I think part of my resistance was not wanting to accept that the throttle handles weren't needed anymore.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't need no stinkin' levers on my transformers!

Yeah, well, yours uses Mr. Fusion as well, so what else could we expect?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

WOW, I didn't notice they went up again!  In a few short years they went from an MSRP of $99.99 to over twice that.  Sure glad I bought a bunch when they were selling for well under the original MSRP!

BTW, where did you get your info?  I looked on the Lionel site...

It was shared from a dealer who received and email about the change.  I'm not sure when the price change takes effect.  I can't imagine this is a surprise given the state of things today.

Cab1L / Base1L sets, Legacy Powermsters, and GW180s were also mentioned as all going up in price.

Price increases were effective immediately when the email arrived about two weeks ago. It doesn’t mean the dealer has to raise his price on ones already in stock. Shop around.

Pete

@MartyE posted:

It was shared from a dealer who received and email about the change.  I'm not sure when the price change takes effect.  I can't imagine this is a surprise given the state of things today.

Cab1L / Base1L sets, Legacy Powermsters, and GW180s were also mentioned as all going up in price.

No big surprise, with MTH fading, Lionel will be emboldened to boost prices on pretty much everything!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

No big surprise, with MTH fading, Lionel will be emboldened to boost prices on pretty much everything!

Well what I meant is that everyone is seeing an increase so I suspect Lionel has to offset the cost like everyone else.  It's business.

To be honest, IMO,  MTH isn't going anywhere for a while.  They basically said so in the release above where they state a new Z4000 type transformer would be redesigned for a new processor.

OGR - Regarding this Post being in the wrong category, this practice seems to be so prevalent on the OGR Forum - by several manufacturers - that me thinks it might be done deliberately to promote a product to a 'wider' audience. 😜

@MartyE posted:

Well what I meant is that everyone is seeing an increase so I suspect Lionel has to offset the cost like everyone else.  It's business.

To be honest, IMO,  MTH isn't going anywhere for a while.  They basically said so in the release above where they state a new Z4000 type transformer would be redesigned for a new processor.

So the way we can all understand it is that the Z4000 will be discontinued after this final run and new model transformer with a new internal design (possibly even external) will take it's place in a couple of years.

As far as the production run goes (to date), the Z4000 was on the market for 23 years and so far has had the longest production run vs. every other transformer offered previously by anyone including the Postwar ZW.

@H1000 posted:

So the way we can all understand it is that the Z4000 will be discontinued after this final run and new model transformer with a new internal design (possibly even external) will take it's place in a couple of years.

As far as the production run goes (to date), the Z4000 was on the market for 23 years and so far has had the longest production run vs. every other transformer offered previously by anyone including the Postwar ZW.

If MTH is going to produce an all new transformer in a year or two why not just wait for that one?

This makes me very happy that I have a Z-4000 for my AC trains and won't need another one for a long-long time and that my next layout will be running DC. 

When a transformer reaches the price point of a 3rd Rail diesel, I'm out!

@PH1975 posted:

OGR - Regarding this Post being in the wrong category, this practice seems to be so prevalent on the OGR Forum - by several manufacturers - that me thinks it might be done deliberately to promote a product to a 'wider' audience. 😜

Companies who are Forum Sponsors are allowed to post in any section they desire

@Madockawando posted:

If MTH is going to produce an all new transformer in a year or two why not just wait for that one?

Because I want/need one now.

My dad bought is ZW (Type R) in the late sixty's after he noticed it was no longer offered in the Lionel catalog. He called around to many hobby shops and hardware stores and finally found one that was still new in the box... he paid $90 which was well above the MSRP for any postwar ZW.

@H1000 posted:

Because I want/need one now.

My dad bought is ZW (Type R) in the late sixty's after he noticed it was no longer offered in the Lionel catalog. He called around to many hobby shops and hardware stores and finally found one that was still new in the box... he paid $90 which well above the MSRP for any postwar ZW.

Interesting... Is the Z4K transformer sold out and no longer in stock?  I did a quick check at Charles Ro, neither the Z4K and the ZWL seem to be available.  At Trainworld, the Lionel ZWL is in stock but the MTH Z4K is not in stock.

I suspect that Covid isolation has lead to a surge in layout building sales of transformers and track.

Legacy Station has the ZW-L in stock for $810 and Model Train Stuff says they have 4 of them at $830 for those interested. Google search does not yield any new Z4000s available, but I'd bet there are some dealers with stock somewhere.  For those who strongly prefer the Z4000s I'd think used makes sense as this has not been a trouble prone product.