Multipe Lionel Trains

Loaded question.  Here's some honesty......................

Get a new Lionel ZW-L.  It will have both the power and circuit protection to run up to 4 trains on 4 separate tracks, if running conventional.  It can also be set to run different command systems once you gain some experience.

My opinion only, I'm no expert, and others with more experience will add significantly to your question.  But the main point is, a ZW-L will get you off to a really good start considering your parameters. 

AWWWWW crap, I just had this thing serviced by a reputable Lionel shop!

Thanks for the info!

2007RoadKing

You can use your ZW.   But you need to install fuses or circuit breakers if you are running modern trains with electronics.  There is another thread going now that talks about that.  The ZW has four controls so you can run up to four conventional locomotives on separate tracks with control from the ZW.

 For the LionChief, you can’t use conventional control so for that track, set the ZW throttle at 18 volts and use your remote to control the loco.

Essentially, you have five locomotives and only 4 variable throttles on the ZW.  Does your Hogwarts set include a "wall wart" transformer plug in?  Is the RTR PRR set Lionchief or transformer controlled (is transfomer included in the set)?  

1. lionchief Hogwarts set - if wall wart transformer is included, use it with this train on its own separate loop.

Set up independent loops connected to the ZW for the following:

1. Ready To Run PRR set

2. 027 Chessie Set

3. 027 Newyork Central Set

4. RS-3 Seaboard

If you wish to run multiple conventional trains (non-Lionchief) on the same loop, then there is block control wiring that can be implemented.  More detail can be provided on this topic if that is the route you would like to go.

How about the actual Lionel product numbers for these sets?

JD2035RR - Only Howarts is Lionchief, rest have there own power supply which i was looking to setup with ZW

GUNRUNNERJOHN - i get you product numbers when i get home

Safe to say, each train has to have their own designated track?

Can all accessories be run of the ZW?

lehigh74 - My apologies for not acknowledging you but Safe to say, each train has to have their own designated track?

It sounds like you, 2007RoadKing, are building a long and narrow layout similar to mine. Mine is an around the walls layout that is about 35 feet long and 3 and one-half to 4 feet wide with 2 independently controlled main lines and 8 independently controlled sidings.  My transformers include an MTH Z4000 that controls the 2 main lines; 2 Lionel ZWs that power the sidings, O22 switch tracks and accessories; and a KW that powers additional accessories.

Since you are relatively new at this, what I highly recommend is the following book, which you can get on e-bay or the Internet: Greenberg's Model Railroading with Lionel Trains, Volume II: An Advanced Layout, by John Kouba. IMO, this book, which is modestly priced (approximately $20), will give you a great foundation of information and knowledge on all aspects of building a conventionally powered layout (your ZW will be fine), including a section on block wiring so you can independently control 2 or 3 locomotives.

The above book is my model railroad bible, published back in 1992. 

There may be more recent books other Forum members might recommend that are just as good, if not better. There is nothing in the above book I'm recommending about modern operating systems like DCC or DCS. 

Arnold

Lehigh74 posted:

You can use your ZW.   But you need to install fuses or circuit breakers if you are running modern trains with electronics.

Breakers are optional. 

TVS diode protection is a necessity.

Breakers are not optional if you don't want to weld your wheels to the track in case of a derailment. 5 grandchildren. I would suggest the PSX-AC that you can get from Charles Ro. That would cost you a bit over $200, so a ZWL might be a better choice.

First thing to remember when asking this group for help.  There is 5 ways to do everything and if 10 people answer you might end up with 13 different opinions!!!   Take advice and simply do it your way!!!

cjack posted:

Breakers are not optional if you don't want to weld your wheels to the track in case of a derailment...

With a ZW? Nah.  Individual breakers for each handle are a nice convenience however. Breakers on each output can also help protect the transformer from shorts that might occur between handles A-B-C-D when crossing power districts on a common ground layout.

See - you got sucked in to the current vs. voltage issue. The issue with current hasn't changed, you still need breaker protection for the transformer & wiring.

For electronics protection from voltage spikes and transients, you need TVS protection.

2007RoadKing posted:

lehigh74 - My apologies for not acknowledging you but Safe to say, each train has to have their own designated track?

You can run multiple LionChiefs on one track.  You just need to watch/control them (or have multiple operators) to avoid collisions.  For conventional, you would need block control as JD suggested to run more than one engine on one track loop and avoid collisions.

 John was right to ask for specific set numbers.  There were some sets made years ago that only run on DC.  If you have one of those, it obviously won’t run with a ZW (or any other AC transformer).

 As for accessories, it depends on what you have and what their power requirements are.  If you have two or three track loops, you can use two or three ZW terminals for the tracks and the remaining terminal(s) for accessories that run on the same AC voltage.  I use two ZWs on my main layout.  I use the A and D terminals for the 4 train loops, one of the C terminals for a “streets” loop and the other terminals for switch machines and accessories.

J Martin posted:

First thing to remember when asking this group for help.  There is 5 ways to do everything and if 10 people answer you might end up with 13 different opinions!!!   Take advice and simply do it your way!!!

Yep; the high road and low road both lead to Dublin.

Your ZW is the old Cadillac, the ZW-L the modern one. Both are still Caddies.

Breaker speed/type differs "mostly";( electronic detection vs thermal)(ZW-L has other features)

Transient Voltage Suppressors are the "real" protection for loco boards. They wouldn't hurt running a ZW-L either.

Adding fuses/breakers are "updates" to bring the old ZW closer to new (or improve over stock ZW-L).

You don't HAVE to do any of this; but it is cheap insurance. (tvs are super cheap) 

The loops can be connected by turnouts if desired (isolated blocks/loops of power)

Three trains is "just right" for solo running imo.(never enough throttles for a group)  I find my fourth spends a lot of time parked while I fiddle with #3 and can still watch #1&2 fairly attentively. I.e. three running while distracted leads to crashes.

If you continue along the modern route I'd consider a ZW-L eventually; but lots of folk; dare I say most; are not running a ZW-L.

Fitting three loops in 4 1/2 feet of width is going to be hard. You probably need 6” spacing between center rails on the curves, and you’ll need a few inches from the edge, especially if you’re up against a wall. Running 5 trains on 2 loops simultaneously with 5 kids is going to be very tight. If one kid gets distracted, you’ll have seconds to avoid the pileup! Block control will work, but is hard to coordinate between multiple operators. There’s automatic block control, but wiring is extensive and you’ll need lots of relays or electronics. Not trying to be a naysayer, but pointing out some limitations. Maybe add some operating accessories to occupy some of the kids? 

George

What size curve track to do you have in inventory?

You will need FasTrack to Lionel O tubular adapters 6-12040 if you plan to interconnect the types of track.

Can the 54" x 252" be a walk-around table or do some sides have to be against a wall?

Do you have any idea how you would like the trains to look? For example - if you took the track that was included with each train set and made 5 loops on the table - is that the look that you envisioned?

I don't see any problem with the old ZW - just fuse the lines to tracks.

Here is 5 sets with the ovals in the box - 2 fasTrack - 3 in O tubular

My two cents.....

Start with a track plan. Do you have something in mind? If not there's plenty of ideas here on the forum and on the internet. A long narrow space sounds like a good candidate for single mains with reverse loops at the ends.

Benchwork? Think about the height you want to build at. Small children will need it lower than adults would be comfortable viewing.

Do you want independent loops or are you adding switches to cross-over between tracks.

Planning scenery or just track and trains. Indoor/ outdoor grass carpet makes for a simple base that's easy to install.

Keep it flexible- a bunch of grandchildren will want to make changes eventually.

You don't have to run all 5 at the same time.

Most important- have fun!

Bob

How about multiple levels?

Attached are the trackplan and images of what we did for a 4'x16' Christmas layout using Fastrack with 36" curves.

Either the top or bottom levels could be converted to two smaller, side-by-side loops if you wanted to have 3 trains running continuously without fear of collisions.

The construction was all sheet foam (the pink, blue or green insulation type) and was very quick, affordable and lightweight.

graz posted:

How about multiple levels?

Attached are the trackplan and images of what we did for a 4'x16' Christmas layout using Fastrack with 36" curves.

Either the top or bottom levels could be converted to two smaller, side-by-side loops if you wanted to have 3 trains running continuously without fear of collisions.

The construction was all sheet foam (the pink, blue or green insulation type) and was very quick, affordable and lightweight.

 

Neat layout! You could probably run three trains simultaneously on that. I think you can only run one train at a time on the upper level, unless they were very short and both fit on the same reverse loop.

George

Moonman posted:

Here is 5 sets with the ovals in the box - 2 fasTrack - 3 in O tubular

 

That's an option. Maybe incorporate two levels into that to allow bigger loops? It could be interesting!

George

2007RoadKing posted:

JD2035RR - Only Howarts is Lionchief, rest have there own power supply which i was looking to setup with ZW

GUNRUNNERJOHN - i get you product numbers when i get home

Why would you use the ZW if each train has its own power supply? The ZW is its own power supply. Is this a modern ZW or a pre-1967 ZW? I'm confused.

George

$8000???

GUNRUNNERJOHN - Got home last night made dinner and fell asleep, I WILL get you those #'s

GEORGE S & MOONMAN - Thanks for the input 

GRAZ - I dig your layoutkinda whats on my mind

RSJB18 - Dig your input and you do have an idea of  what i'm sayin'

For All - What GRAZ has laid out is what i sort of envisioned with the upper track as the hogwarts lionchief "only" track. The lower track running with 8 pairs of switches between  5 loops to be able to switch trains from track to track.

If you look at the picture MOONMAN posted picture them end to end with with 2 sets of switches between the 5 tracks you might have an idea of what i'm trying to do (as i said, Trying to do)

Sorry if I didn't thank anyone

Oh Yea, Tinplate Art, Yes $8-10,000.00 between Track, Operating bridges, automated coalmines, train sets, automated Radio tower, and the 4 1/2 x 14 HO Setup, you get the picture. Like I said "I had a very well paying job" and went crazy at train shows and Ebay.

By the way, Anybody gonna be at Allentown show in February

2007RoadKing posted:

By the way, Anybody gonna be at Allentown show in February

Take a look at this thread.  It will tell you some folks that will be there on Saturday.

https://ogrforum.com/...8#130378185379477488

George S posted:

2007RoadKing posted:

JD2035RR - Only Howarts is Lionchief, rest have there own power supply which i was looking to setup with ZW

GUNRUNNERJOHN - i get you product numbers when i get home

Why would you use the ZW if each train has its own power supply? The ZW is its own power supply. Is this a modern ZW or a pre-1967 ZW? I'm confused.

George

For one thing;more available amps are in a Z(Or ZW or ZW-C or ZW-L or etc) than a wall wart.

...maybe the freight set engine now pulls incandescently lit passenger cars and needs more amps?

Maybe there is only one wall outlet? No room for multiple warts.

Runs conventional trains on the same tracks; i.e., simply convenient.

Nostalgic ZW throttles are reason enough imo😁

Loops connected by a "mainline"?  There is a lot you can do with that, including double duty on some loops as reverse loops. 

Gramps had small loops 0-31/36/42-ish connected by big main loops (18x30'ish). It allowed the younger kids to run the small loops "unattended" while the elders controlled the turnouts/throttles that interconnected them.

You know making blocks are as simple as plastic track pins for isolating the center rail, and new power wire(s) for each block. Maybe add a switch to kill/enable power to that block.... or one to select which power supply feeds that block...or both.. etc. (All will likely share the common/outside rails, you just need to route the "hots" to where you want it, when you want it (a switch), and from where you choose (a switch)

A track plan makes it easier to elaborate on "best" wiring   There are simply tons of possible combos for laying track and wires both.  

If you run Windows try playing with some software. SCARM or Anyrail; both offered (limited track) free versions last I looked.  Scarm can do more but has a learning curve; Anyrail is very easy to use.

I think 2007RoadKing suffered sensory overload from all the responses!

Probably, the buy a an 800 dollar transformer thing didn't help.  The thing is, for people new to this forum, it's hard to know who to listen to about electronics.  There's only a few people I really pay attention to in this area, as they have the experience and knowledge here.

The worst thing here, is too many throw out advice without ever asking or listening to the OP's wants, needs, etc.  The other side of that, is too many people who lack the knowledge or experience give way too much advice.  The people to listen to are usually the ones who ask you questions first before telling you everything you "need" to know or are doing wrong.

TexasSP posted:

Probably, the buy a an 800 dollar transformer thing didn't help.  The thing is, for people new to this forum, it's hard to know who to listen to about electronics.  There's only a few people I really pay attention to in this area, as they have the experience and knowledge here.

The worst thing here, is too many throw out advice without ever asking or listening to the OP's wants, needs, etc.  The other side of that, is too many people who lack the knowledge or experience give way too much advice.  The people to listen to are usually the ones who ask you questions first before telling you everything you "need" to know or are doing wrong.

The man's already spent $8000+ on trains and accessories.  What's another $800 for a quality transformer that should be able to run everything he has?

The OP's wants and needs were pretty well stated in his initial post.  As a newcomer to the hobby, he would like to start running all his trains and accessories as soon as possible, I'm pretty sure .  A Lionel ZW-L could be hooked up in short order and get him going about as quick as anything. 

An older ZW in need of circuit breakers and TVS to help protect this newcomer's investment?  Throwing out advice without asking or listening?  Inexperienced people giving too much advice?  People who ask a bunch of questions before telling you everything you need to know or are doing wrong?  I beg to differ, but I think if there's any sensory overload going on, it's probably all of this last stuff contributing to it!   

A properly engineered setup with ZWs, ZW-Ls, or whatnot doesn't really matter. Either can be viable in this case and someone else's preferences and priorities do not need to align with yours.

But if we go back to the OP question, it was HOW TO USE AN EXISTING ZW:

2007RoadKing posted:

Here is the 64,000.00 question, "How can I run them at the same time using a ZW transformer?"

So I fault those who immediately jump the gun and say ZW-L and intentionally or unintentionally giving the wrong and incorrect impression that a classic ZW is unable.

bmoran4 posted:

A properly engineered setup with ZWs, ZW-Ls, or whatnot doesn't really matter. Either can be viable in this case and someone else's preferences and priorities do not need to align with yours.

But if we go back to the OP question, it was HOW TO USE AN EXISTING ZW:

2007RoadKing posted:

Here is the 64,000.00 question, "How can I run them at the same time using a ZW transformer?"

So I fault those who immediately jump the gun and say ZW-L and intentionally or unintentionally giving the wrong and incorrect impression that a classic ZW is unable.

Exactly,  In this he also stated that while he was unrestricted when making these original purchases he seems more restricted on expenditures now.

TexasSP posted:

bmoran4 posted:

A properly engineered setup with ZWs, ZW-Ls, or whatnot doesn't really matter. Either can be viable in this case and someone else's preferences and priorities do not need to align with yours.

But if we go back to the OP question, it was HOW TO USE AN EXISTING ZW:

2007RoadKing posted:

Here is the 64,000.00 question, "How can I run them at the same time using a ZW transformer?"

So I fault those who immediately jump the gun and say ZW-L and intentionally or unintentionally giving the wrong and incorrect impression that a classic ZW is unable.

Exactly,  In this he also stated that while he was unrestricted when making these original purchases he seems more restricted on expenditures now.

Q: How do you drive a 1950's car with a manual transmission?

Mixed Freight: Get a new car with an automatic

Guys, no need for the flame war or the bright shiny object marketing pitch. I think OP’s questions are answered at this point, unless he comes back with a targeted question. Let’s move on from this discussion.

George

I used 3 ZWs on my modern era layout. I limited each ZW to 2 full size trains max. The other ZW controls were metered out for lights and accessories.

You need to consider load balancing. Try to distribute the wattage load evenly among your transformers. A ZW puts out approximately 275 watts and a lighted passenger train pulled with pull-more equipped motors can easily pull 100 watts. 

As for circuit protection. I installed 7amp slow blow breakers in series with the heavy mainline blocks to run the large postwar power. 5 amp for the smaller blocks where modern era trains traveled. Why slow blow? Isn't that dangerous? Not really, slow blow still pop within 1-2 seconds and postwar trains do experience power surges. Fast-blow breakers will constantly need resetting.

As for TVS diodes?? I never used them but I hear they are good protection against transient spikes that can scramble modern electronics. That happened to an MTH locomotive I was running a few years ago. There was a short spark and the engine never ran again.

areizman posted:

A ZW puts out approximately 275 watts...

180-200 watts continuous, at best.

bmoran4 posted:

Q: How do you drive a 1950's car with a manual transmission?

Mixed Freight: Get a new car with an automatic

Funny, bmoran4! 

How do you run new, modern trains with an old transformer?  The easiest way for a newcomer is to get a new transformer that has all the modern safe guards to protect his modern trains and has enough power (or almost so) to do what he wants.

Far be it from me to make fun of your ancestral heritage, bmoran4.  I was just trying to help the guy.

Would you like a banana?   

Mixed Freight posted:

How do you run new, modern trains ... ?

Any sufficiently powerful variable ~6-18VAC power source with circuit breakers and TVS diodes.

When you say circuit breakers, I think the really fast electronic ones will protect the trains better. The circuit breakers in the old transformers are meant to protect the old transformer not the car or engine. Depending on how say a derailment occurs, if the two roller pickups end up one on the center rail and one on the outside rail, then old slow circuit breakers with burn up the wiring inside the car or engine. Not to mention welding the wheels to the rails, etc.