My 1st Diesels 2353 Santa FE's

OK, so the first order of business was to see how to fix the front coupler which was bent in shipping. I re-checked the ebay pics from the auction and the coupler was fine in the pics. So I figured out how to get the shell off the chassis and slowly analyzed the front layout until I figured out how to take apart the front assembly enough to figure out how to straighten the coupler issue. I finally got the assembly apart and saw that the metal bracket which holds the coupler on was bent and with some delicate plier action was able to straighten the bent bracket and restore the coupler to the correct angle. 1st problem solved. While inside the chassis, I applied a little oil to the exposed gears in the motors and the trucks and put it on the track to see if it even ran at all.  

     I got it on the track and sure enough the motors worked and the 2353 roared to life around the track. But when I reversed it, it was not too cooperative and didn't want to go in reverse very well. Back to the workbench again I went. Long story short, after a couple sessions tinkering with it, I finally removed the rear truck assembly and started to dive into a more thorough analysis. The way I figure it, if I see a screw holding something down, then it must be okay to remove it and see what is hidden inside (the folly of fools sometimes lol). I ended up tearing the worm gear out and found it to have hardened old grease gumming it up pretty good. So a good cleaning with some acetone and q-tips on the accessible areas and then some oil onto the inside axle assembly and working it back and forth and next thing you know, the old Santa Fe is chugging in reverse as well as forward. 

    Now onto the broken coupler on the rear of the A engine.  I realized that the top plate which the coupler pivots on was quite sloppy and after screwing around with it a few times, I got a small C clamp and clamped the assembly back together and re-seated the roll pins which were not holding down the plate anymore. That did the trick on the coupler and now it is working fine again. 

   Onto the screw which fell out of the dummy A unit when I unpacked it, after removing the shell,  I saw that it was one of the retaining screws which holds the horn assembly on. So I reinserted it and tightened up the other one and that took care of the 3rd problem for me.

    I replaced the light bulb in the A unit, which was not working ( thank goodness that I am an old Chevy guy-had a drawer full of old interior lights from mid 60's Chevy projects and the 1445 bulb was used on a lot of interior lights in the dashboards) and now the 2 units had power and lights again.

    Next post I will discuss the horn issues on this old beast and also some weird parts combinations I discovered while digging around inside the A unit.

thanks for listening

Best looking diesels every made by Lionel....glad you got them working.

Thanks, I am glad I bought them-really nice pair of diesels and it's been a lot of fun messing with them also. It gives me a sense of accomplishment when some minor repair improves the performance. Hard to believe that they are almost 60 years old and still run like champs. 

Looks like you got a great set at a good price.  Fortunately, you purchased postwar engines that are easily repairable.  Have fun with your new toys.

Earl

Congrats, easy to lube and maintain, best of all, should have the Postwar "growl".

The best is right!  Not to mention the built in growler railsounds. If your track work isnt straight they will straighten it out for ya. Good luck , have fun.

Now on to my final mystery with this pair. In all my tinkering I realized something odd. When I looked at the chassis markings, both chassis' have 2333-20 stamped in them. OK fine, somebody swapped a pair of 2353 shells on some 2333 chassis', right? Except when I tore into the motors for some cleaning of the armature surfaces and carbon brushes, I noticed that the motors are stamped 2343?  So I have a pair of F-3s with a 2333 chassis and 2343 motors and 2353 shells?  Could they come from Lionel that way back in the day based on what was available when they were built? Or was this pair worked on at some time and the motors swapped out? Who knows - maybe you guys can shed some light on that for me.

 Heres a pic of the underside of the A unit

Thanks

Next question-should there be something attached here? Is a contact shoe missing or something? On the dummy A unit something is attached here. I have little expertise on this so any input is welcome.

    I also need to replace the contact wheels for the center rail. You can tell this train was worked hard by whoever owned it as the rollers are heavily gouged where they contact the center track. Is this a readily available part for the F-3's?

Thanks for all your input and talk to you soon.

Thanks

Michael V

Lionel Postwar part numbers start with the model they were first used on. If it was used on a subsequent model, the number wasn't updated, it's the same part. It is not unusual to have an apparent mix, as the service manual I have shows the part numbers you mentioned.

The square slot in the truck is for a contact shoe for the coil coupler. You could get a rail section with 2 extra rails, and when you push the button on the controller that came with it, the couplers will open. You will need the shoe, rivet and backing plate. These are common parts, I'll find you the numbers if you wish, but the shoes do commonly break off, and some people aren't bothered that the couplers won't open.

FIRST, look at your front couplers.  If they have a round button underneath and it opens the coupler when you pull down on it then you don't need the shoe! A magnet type uncoupling track will open the coupler. The early versions used a shoe to activate the coupler.  Probably Lionel just didn't change the casting. 

The center rail rollers are easily found at parts dealers. 

BTW, you have a A-A set - one powered, one dummy.  B units do not have a cab.  Lionel did make Santa Fe B units.

I would have complained to the seller about the poor packing job.  He should reimburse you for repairs.  If not, inform ebay.

John

Maybe it's just the camera angle, but the axles appear to be bent based on the wheel angles.  Again, my suspicion is that it is just the camera.

My recollection is that the 2343 motor was mounted horizontally, which produced the growl due to the gearing, and the 2353 motors were mounted vertically.

Earl

No, the 2353 were horizontal also. The verticle motors came in 1955.

Rob

If the relay picks up when you hit the horn button, and the contacts are clean and ok, either the horn has an issue or the wiring is bad. Try hooking up a battery using jumpers to the horn itself. If it blows, you have a wire or relay issue. Did you mess with the horn adjustment screw? If turned too far the horn will stop blowing.

Rob

Didn't mess with the adjustment screw-wondering if the black wire leading to horn itself has a break in it hidden from view. Will try to use a jumper wire and bypass it to see if that is problem. Just weird that it worked fine one second and just quit the next. That is why I think a bad wire is issue.

Thanks for info

Mike

Thanks for info and offer of parts numbers- right now not using any automatic uncoupling (very basic setup at this time) and as least I know what needs replaced in the future if I go that route.

Motors are horizontal on this one.  But I think the center wheel pickup is a little tweaked which may be why the axles appear bent. Train tracks fine right now without any issues, but will examine the axles closer next time I have it on the bench-Thanks

That is a great find Mike and the paint appears to be in great shape. I scored a set of 2353 A-B-A units for free from a friend of my grandmother and I love them. I have replaced the brushes and the rollers and thoroughly cleaned the motors and drivetrain. You should definitely remove the motors and inspect the brushes and brush plates. Also check the lubrication of the worm gears. Old grease breaks down into its two basic components; oil and soap. The oil dries up and all you are left with is the old dried-out soap. You will probably have to go in and scrape out all of the old gunk.

I am also having an issue with the horn relay. I just ordered a replacement relay and I will see how that works. I am sure that it is just the contacts.

I've repaired/restored several of these units. Take the trucks completely apart and clean out all the old grease and oil. Clean motor and brushes too. When you put the trucks back together, make sure you get the worm gear bearings in the correct way. Their is a top and bottom to them, and putting them in upside down, will cause the wheels to bind up in one direction. After you have cleaned, lubed, and put the truck back together, simply check them by rolling them on the bench in both directions. They should roll freely without any binding in either direction and when changing direction. Sometimes you will find excessive slack in the worm gear. You can see this when you change directions, the entire worm gear assembly will shift about an 1/16-1/8 inch. Just cut a spacer to fit in between the worm gear bearing and the truck housing to eliminate that wear.

Sounds like they are running fine, except the horn. But just make sure you clean out all the old grease and put some new lube in there.

Thanks for the info on the spacer-the old grease I had already run into when I took the rear truck off the lead engine to repair the coupler.
Here's a pic of the front coupler before the shim:

And this is the shim I inserted (didn't want it too tight or it would bind up the gears completely):

I ended up shimming the rear unit also-no pics for that one though

I have encountered some other issues that I will list in my next post, but once again thanks to everyone for the tips and comments. This is a great forum

Mike

Another thing to watch for on these is whether or not any of the locomotive wheels are rubbing the chassis due to worn out axle bearings. Your shim looks good.

Rob

Thanks-that is another thing I was going to look at-how much side to side I have with the wheels. By the looks of the groove that is worn into the center rail roller on the engine, I gotta believe this one had heavy usage before I bought it. I swapped one of the rollers from the dummy A unit for now until I can buy some new replacement rollers for it. 

Yours has the 2023 type rollers. These work best. You can get replacement rollers easily.

Rob

So on to my next question for all of you. And of course it starts with a little story. Now that I have this nice pair of postwar diesels, I figure that they need to be pulling a nice passenger set behind it, since all I have is my old Lionel starter set of freight and flat cars. So I start watching eBay auctions (since I hadn't joined this forum yet) and decide that the extruded aluminum cars are real sweet. I end up buying a 6 piece MTH Santa Fe Aluminum Passenger Car Set to match the engine theme and keep it all Santa Fe of course. So they arrived yesterday on New Years Eve and after I got home from work at 11 PM, I just had to try them out.  Here is a vid of the first run last night under the tree:

http://smg.beta.photobucket.co...zpsbd9f09b6.mp4.html

And one from this morning:

http://smg.beta.photobucket.co...zpsfb8a0cff.mp4.html

So my mystery is this-as you can see in the video, last night I had both engines and 4 passenger cars running and this morning I had 1 engine and 5 passenger cars running. Every time I try to run all 6 cars and both engines, the sucker keeps stopping and I have to turn off the transformer and back on again. After much screwing around I have found that if I let the engine "warm up" and run without all the cars for a bit and add the cars on after the 'warm up' it will pull them, but is subject to just stopping all at once. What I am wondering is this, my transformer is a basic CW-80 and is new, but do these old F3 motors pull a lot of power to run?  And then adding 5 lighted cars, is it possible that the 80 watts isn't enough to pull the full set of cars? 

    The way it runs with 4 cars, I find it hard to believe that the engine isn't strong enough to pull 6 cars, but I am a novice here and any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

Mike

The CW80 is your problem. It has to go. Every bulb pulls another 3 watts too. You need a good transformer like a KW, LW, or an MTH Z-1000. The magnatraction duel motored F3's pull 4-5 amps at speed. Add on the 6 passenger cars and the CW-80 is way overloaded.

Rob

That was pretty much what I figured. More money  to spend lol.  I can use the CW80 for the old Scout set I started with, I am currently using the old original Lionel 60 watt transformer that I had as a child 50 years ago and lord knows I need an upgrade there. Well for now I will just run 4 of the cars until I figure out which transformer to buy. 

Thanks rob

Mike

Maybe post an add for a transformer on the wanted forum. Someone always has one they will sell. Ebay is risky.  I use my old CW80 for lighting only around the tracks.

Rob

The CW80 is not a problem, it's more of a symptom... he is just at the limit of its 5 amp output. It is a good transformer.

A well serviced 2353 AA with bulbs, E-unit, horn relay and 5 illuminated cars draws 3 amps in neutral, and draws 5.7-6 amps running when cold at 17 volts.  Warm up the engine a little and back off on the throttle to stay below 5 amps and it will run fine.

This is a perfect example of how important having an ammeter can be.

It is time, however, to shop for more power.

Twin motored postwar engines and passenger car lights use a lot of power.  You do need a bigger transformer.  I'd say at least 125 watts.  Save the CW-80 for another freight line or accessory power.  You can find postwar transformers for less than a C-note, like the KW, but check the line cord carefully - any cracks and it will have to be replaced.  New transformers are pricer but have more features and faster acting circuit breakers.  Lionel, MTH, and MRC all have good units.

John

Thanks again oldrob-posted and ad in wanted forum and og fan responded- Thanks Paul for the ZW 275 - everything running like it should now.

Best looking pre 1955 F units:

1.  2245A-C TEXAS SPECIAL

2.  23x3 Santa Fe

Note:  Lionel did not use EMD letting for the units:

A: Powered A unit.

B: Unpowered A unit

C: B unit

Note:  The 2353 only was made as AA.  To have a ABA set means you have a 2353AB units as A's, and a 2343C as the B unit.

I have the 2353AB combo myself.  Not a bad combo.

I do run the things in reverse:  The unpowered A then the Powered A.  Mine run better that way.

Have changed the lights to warm LEDs.  More light, with less heat.  If you get the passenger cars, and they don't have them CONVERT!

Also, I run my with a TrainSounds boxcar, and do not worry about the horn in the 2353.  More sounds!

Thanks for the info Dominic-I need to edit my original post. I incorrectly referred to the dummy A as a B- I do have the AA combo. Will try running the Dummy in the lead and see how they run that way. I bought the MTH Santa Fe aluminum passenger set with 4 cars and the additional 2 cars running regular lighting. It is a nice setup and I am enjoying it. Haven't started on the layout madness just yet. But I have been giving potential layouts a lot of thought. 

New question on my Santa Fe 2353's. They started misbehaving recently and yesterday evening started running very slow and jerky all of a sudden, even with full power on the ZW PW. I pulled the powered A unit off the track and took a look at it today and discovered the the center rail pickup rollers are frozen and not rotating causing them to flat spot-very weird since they are new rollers (less than 2 months old). My question is this-are the pins that the rollers slide onto pressed into place or is one side peened over to hold the pin in place. I have new pins but was unsure how to remove the old ones and chose to slide the new roller over the old pin when I replaced them. I don't want to trash the pick up assembly by smacking it with a punch unless that is the correct removal process. Here are a couple pics of the assembly and the flattened roller. I got it to rotate but it actually acts like it is frozen to the pin now as the whole assemble rotates and I know that is incorrect. 

Any help appreciated

You put the wrong rollers in there.  Get the ones for the Alco 2023, they are like your originals.  The ones you have in the picture are too wide and when installed the collector arm is pinching them, not letting them rotate...Rollers are about a buck each...

Marty

Marty

I did put the 2023 rollers in when I changed them. They rolled free upon install and have just recently seized. I spread the collector arm apart and the roller is seized on the shaft pin. I bought the rollers from Olsen's in Cleveland and the 2023's are what were sent? That is why I was surprised at this happening? The question is how does the pin come out of the collector arm-do I press it out and peen one end of the new one to hold it in place?

Thanks