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I was talking with a friend about this in the trainroom last night and they suggested I share it.  

 

This concept isn't for everyone, and I'm not imposing it on anyone, but it has been a useful guide to me for over twenty years.

 

I "rate" or "classify" the model buildings, scenery, diecast cars, boats, locomotives and rolling stock I build or buy in terms of distance: how close do I have to get before it does not look good to me?  

- A four-foot model looks good at four feet, but from two feet away I can see some details are missing, or that the paint and graphics aren't really crisp, etc. 

- A one-foot model will look good from just one foot away: the details I expect are all there, the finish, paint, graphics and lettering, if there, look good, etc. It might not look good from half a foot away . . . 

 

This is still a somewhat subjective judgement.  What does "look good" mean?  Every person has to make up their own mind there.  But I have my own standard that I understand, and using it and this concept, it guides me in building my layout.  

 

Also, I decided long ago to judge models as models. I've seen models that look absolutely real in photos that have been posed and taken just so. They look indistinguishable from real.  But I have never seen an actual model, in person and 3-D, that looked so real it did not look like a model.  So I judge my models that way: it is a model, but is it a good looking model, and how far away does it look good from?

 

I then use this as a guide in making models and scenery for my layout.  For example, I recently completed this small cabin cruiser for my boatyard.   Guys, this is a neatly done, scale model of a 36-foot cabin cruiser.  I got lots of compliments on it when I posted pictures.  But look at it critically for a moment in the picture below.  There are a lot of missing details: it does not have running lights, there are no instruments or controls on the dashboard - the steering.  You can't see into the boat through the windows.  In back, the two exhaust pipes are just painted round black holes, etc.  

It's a four-foot model, to me.  A nice, neatly made, four foot model, but a really poor one-foot model . . . 

 

Slide1

 

Which is fine, because it (just left of middle, below) is 58 inches  (nearly five feet) from the edge of the layout (lower right corner) in the photo below.  It is impossible to get within even four feet of it if you lean in over the layout. 

Slide2

 

I don't have a detailed model boat on the layout, but here is a 1/87 model ship on display in my office, one of several "six-inch models" I've made over the years.  The hammers of the workmen, etc., have heads and wooden handles, their toolboxes are open with tiny augers and chisels in them, etc.  You can actually lean in to closer than six inches here, but six inches is about the best I can make . . . 

Slide3

 

I let this concept of model detail versus distance guide me in what I make and how much time I spend on it when I build my layout.  The Indian Trail motel in the background is about three and a half feet from the edge of the layout.  It is printed paper or foam, made is 3-D, but without a lot of detail other than what is printed.  In the foreground of the photo below, still nearly 18 inches from the viewer, are several "eighteen inch" trailers, rather detailed but you can't see details through the windows, etc.  I made them to this level of detail, spending time to make the details one can see, but not spending time of details you cannot.

Slide4

 

Here's another example, a one foot model of Dean Martin's restaurant in Hollywood in the 1950s, located about twenty inches from the edge of the layout . . . . the building is rather detailed, having brass metal door handles where one ca see them and tiny lanterns and lights in the car port area, etc.  John Wayne and Dean Martin (with Veranda Turbine) both have painted tuxes with bowties: you can barely see them from a foot away.  

Slide5

 

This bookstore - Lionel or MTH made it I think, I don't recall, but the building itself is not bashed much, has an interior added to clear windows I installed, because it is only 14 inches from the layouts edge . . . 

Slide6

 

And maybe the most detail on my layout is here.  The pie is the Sky restaurant is also fourteen inches from the layout edge, but in a place that invits one to lean in over it, and directly below bright lights: waitresses here hold menus in their hands, there are flowers in vases on the tablecloths (well, they look like flowers from six inches away!), a full interior inside with diners, etc.,

Slide7

 

This concept guides me when I buy diecast cars, etc. - or at least when I decide which go where.  Note the cars parked in front of the cathedral.  They are the only New Ray diecast cars on the layout: nothing really wrong with New Ray.  They often cost only $7 on sale.  But they are not always scale, sometimes being a bit small, and they do not have nearly the detail and finish of more expensive models.  But they are fully six feet from any observer: if they were NEO, Spark, the details would be totally lost anyway.  But on main street (near the lower portion of the photos, and my NEO, Spark, and the the better Brooklin models parked  as close as six inches from the layout's edge.

Slide8

 

Maybe the best example of this concept in use is Reed and Malloy's Adam 12 cruiser . . . Here it is as most visitors and I see it, unless I am up on a sptep stool and leaning over the layout. I think it looks okay here . . . . 

 

Slide9

 

But it you get closer - not that it is easy to - you will see that I hand-lettered the  012 on the top of One Adam Twelve . . . it's just a tiny bit not perfect . . . 

Slide10

 

And should you somehow manage to get within three inches, you'd see that: a) I didn't mask the car perfectly when I repainted it (it was not a police cruiser when I bought it) and b) the Los Angeles Police emblem on the door is in fact penciled markings that are sort of like the shape and where the real logo is located.  Again, it looks good from three or four feet, but absolutely lousy from three inches.  In fact, frankly, the model car loosk pretty lousy this close up, come to think of it . . . 

Slide11

 

 

 

Again, this concept isn't for everybody, and sometimes it is not for me: I have put interior in buildings, or bought detailed diecast cars and trucks, that I then put far from the layou's edge, just because i wanted to build a detailed building interior, or buy that particular car.  But when I plan my layout and determine how much effort and time to devote to which various parts of it, I use this concept to help me decided what to build.  

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Original Post

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Very understandable Lee, my expression comes from my young surfing friends who used to justify a shaky run by saying "It looked good from the beach". Distance takes the edge off.

 

Your work is hands down outstanding and I'd be happy with many of your 6' displays. Thank you for your continued commitment to sharing your work and your techniques.

Very interesting concept Lee. I am not that organized when planning out what distance I use a particular model based on detail quality. I usually try out a spot for a model and see how it looks in a particular spot. The only times I have run into trouble is with using a video cam placed close to model scenes. Using a video cam for my model subways sometimes gave me details or lack of details that were a problem at times. After viewing the cam and noticing any problems, I then had to think of ways to correct any problems. An example of a problem was that sometimes I had a problem with the gap between the subway car and the subway platform. My subway platform looked fine at normal viewing distance, but the gap between train car and platform looked way too great when viewed through the cam. I then had to make a few changes to allow for a closer gap and make the gap adjustable depending on the subway used at the moment. The same problem happened with the quality of detail on items where a closeup view with the cam made items look bad. I either had to replace those items or make adjustments to the details.

hi to all,

We discussed this concept few days ago with Mark and Myles.

Personally, I put details for me, as soon you know they are there is enough to see them.

Now the visitors react different, most the time they get very close to everything, something that we(owners) don't do because we know detail are there. 

The other concept that is closed linked is the balance between cars buildings and people.

remember your eye easily can be fooled.

 

 

Andre.

 

 

I pretty much agree with your methods. 

I kinda do the same thing. It's why when I rework my freight cars I replace highly detailed frames that make it a difficult runner with a frame that makes it run better on 3r track. Out of sight no details just flat plastic or wood. 

The level of detail is very dependent on what and where an item will end up. 

These paper buildings will be mixed in with more detailed buildings. My theory is the detailed surroundings will fool the eye into thinking these are just as detailed and 3D.

 

DSCN1503

 

It's all a 'trick'.......

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AMCDave - yes, so much of it is a trick or two to fool the eye.  

 

c.sam - the layout is about eight to nine years old now.  I started it about nine years ago but initially I had a big switchyard.  Then I realized I don't like to do switching and took that out and started most of the layout over, putting in 'Streets, so its really only about eight years old. 

Nice Dave .... Great work.  Can you walk us through how you did this one.

Originally Posted by AMCDave:

       

I pretty much agree with your methods. 

I kinda do the same thing. It's why when I rework my freight cars I replace highly detailed frames that make it a difficult runner with a frame that makes it run better on 3r track. Out of sight no details just flat plastic or wood. 

The level of detail is very dependent on what and where an item will end up. 

These paper buildings will be mixed in with more detailed buildings. My theory is the detailed surroundings will fool the eye into thinking these are just as detailed and 3D.

 

DSCN1503

 

It's all a 'trick'.......

Lee, first of all, your work is wonderful! I love the sailing ship. As AMS as I am, you exceed that. Tools in tool boxes... WOW!

 

I follow your guidelines without actually putting specifics to them. At first the fire house was going to be beyond the 4 foot point, but now it's in the foreground and will deserve a little more attention. It's also why the buildings that face the viewer on main street all have interiors since they're all seen. The Victorian station and the substation also fall into the "Up close and personal" viewing range.

 

With that being said, I really like building models and detailing them. So I kind of fall in line with Andre in that I put as much detail on them as I can stand at the moment. Any freight cars that I build need to be close-up models since at any given time they can be right in front of your nose.

 

I like the notion of placing the model cars at distances that best hide their flaws, if they have any. Most of the limited amount of cars I have are of the Brooklin, Conquest and NEO variety so they can stand the scrutiny. For the distances, using the less expensive models make lots of sense.

 

The only time your rule gets violated is when the layout is going to be photographed professionally for a magazine article. Many of those pics will be taken of items further away from the viewer.

Originally Posted by Lee Willis:

I was talking with a friend about this in the trainroom last night and they suggested I share it.  

 

This concept isn't for everyone, and I'm not imposing it on anyone, but it has been a useful guide to me for over twenty years.

 

I "rate" or "classify" the model buildings, scenery, diecast cars, boats, locomotives and rolling stock I build or buy in terms of distance: how close do I have to get before it does not look good to me?  

- A four-foot model looks good at four feet, but from two feet away I can see some details are missing, or that the paint and graphics aren't really crisp, etc. 

- A one-foot model will look good from just one foot away: the details I expect are all there, the finish, paint, graphics and lettering, if there, look good, etc. It might not look good from half a foot away . . . 

 

This is still a somewhat subjective judgement.  What does "look good" mean?  Every person has to make up their own mind there.  But I have my own standard that I understand, and using it and this concept, it guides me in building my layout.  

 

Also, I decided long ago to judge models as models. I've seen models that look absolutely real in photos that have been posed and taken just so. They look indistinguishable from real.  But I have never seen an actual model, in person and 3-D, that looked so real it did not look like a model.  So I judge my models that way: it is a model, but is it a good looking model, and how far away does it look good from?

 

I then use this as a guide in making models and scenery for my layout.  For example, I recently completed this small cabin cruiser for my boatyard.   Guys, this is a neatly done, scale model of a 36-foot cabin cruiser.  I got lots of compliments on it when I posted pictures.  But look at it critically for a moment in the picture below.  There are a lot of missing details: it does not have running lights, there are no instruments or controls on the dashboard - the steering.  You can't see into the boat through the windows.  In back, the two exhaust pipes are just painted round black holes, etc.  

It's a four-foot model, to me.  A nice, neatly made, four foot model, but a really poor one-foot model . . . 

 

Slide1

 

Which is fine, because it (just left of middle, below) is 58 inches  (nearly five feet) from the edge of the layout (lower right corner) in the photo below.  It is impossible to get within even four feet of it if you lean in over the layout. 

Slide2

 

I don't have a detailed model boat on the layout, but here is a 1/87 model ship on display in my office, one of several "six-inch models" I've made over the years.  The hammers of the workmen, etc., have heads and wooden handles, their toolboxes are open with tiny augers and chisels in them, etc.  You can actually lean in to closer than six inches here, but six inches is about the best I can make . . . 

Slide3

 

I let this concept of model detail versus distance guide me in what I make and how much time I spend on it when I build my layout.  The Indian Trail motel in the background is about three and a half feet from the edge of the layout.  It is printed paper or foam, made is 3-D, but without a lot of detail other than what is printed.  In the foreground of the photo below, still nearly 18 inches from the viewer, are several "eighteen inch" trailers, rather detailed but you can't see details through the windows, etc.  I made them to this level of detail, spending time to make the details one can see, but not spending time of details you cannot.

Slide4

 

Here's another example, a one foot model of Dean Martin's restaurant in Hollywood in the 1950s, located about twenty inches from the edge of the layout . . . . the building is rather detailed, having brass metal door handles where one ca see them and tiny lanterns and lights in the car port area, etc.  John Wayne and Dean Martin (with Veranda Turbine) both have painted tuxes with bowties: you can barely see them from a foot away.  

Slide5

 

This bookstore - Lionel or MTH made it I think, I don't recall, but the building itself is not bashed much, has an interior added to clear windows I installed, because it is only 14 inches from the layouts edge . . . 

Slide6

 

And maybe the most detail on my layout is here.  The pie is the Sky restaurant is also fourteen inches from the layout edge, but in a place that invits one to lean in over it, and directly below bright lights: waitresses here hold menus in their hands, there are flowers in vases on the tablecloths (well, they look like flowers from six inches away!), a full interior inside with diners, etc.,

Slide7

 

This concept guides me when I buy diecast cars, etc. - or at least when I decide which go where.  Note the cars parked in front of the cathedral.  They are the only New Ray diecast cars on the layout: nothing really wrong with New Ray.  They often cost only $7 on sale.  But they are not always scale, sometimes being a bit small, and they do not have nearly the detail and finish of more expensive models.  But they are fully six feet from any observer: if they were NEO, Spark, the details would be totally lost anyway.  But on main street (near the lower portion of the photos, and my NEO, Spark, and the the better Brooklin models parked  as close as six inches from the layout's edge.

Slide8

 

Maybe the best example of this concept in use is Reed and Malloy's Adam 12 cruiser . . . Here it is as most visitors and I see it, unless I am up on a sptep stool and leaning over the layout. I think it looks okay here . . . . 

 

Slide9

 

But it you get closer - not that it is easy to - you will see that I hand-lettered the  012 on the top of One Adam Twelve . . . it's just a tiny bit not perfect . . . 

Slide10

 

And should you somehow manage to get within three inches, you'd see that: a) I didn't mask the car perfectly when I repainted it (it was not a police cruiser when I bought it) and b) the Los Angeles Police emblem on the door is in fact penciled markings that are sort of like the shape and where the real logo is located.  Again, it looks good from three or four feet, but absolutely lousy from three inches.  In fact, frankly, the model car loosk pretty lousy this close up, come to think of it . . . 

Slide11

 

 

 

Again, this concept isn't for everybody, and sometimes it is not for me: I have put interior in buildings, or bought detailed diecast cars and trucks, that I then put far from the layou's edge, just because i wanted to build a detailed building interior, or buy that particular car.  But when I plan my layout and determine how much effort and time to devote to which various parts of it, I use this concept to help me decided what to build.  

If you need to model a Yatch for the boat building company, you can model mine, "The Islander". That's the wife on the bow.

Originally Posted by J Daddy:
Nice Dave .... Great work.  Can you walk us through how you did this one.
 

That building is a kit offered by Clever Models. It's built per instructions except for the wood molding trim I used at the top of the front. The only tricks are I color all edges where bare card stock might show with Sharpie pens.  I have one of the big sets with many colors so I can get a very close match. 

Originally Posted by josef:

 

If you need to model a Yatch for the boat building company, you can model mine, "The Islander". That's the wife on the bow.

Nice boat, but a bit too big for the scene, and far too new for 1955 era.  Although I love boats, I never bought even one, because from observation of others, I learned: you don't own a boat.  The boat owns you.  

Originally Posted by Lee Willis:
 Although I love boats, I never bought even one, because from observation of others, I learned: you don't own a boat.  The boat owns you.  

Boats are fun.......only one I ever had was a 10 ft John boat.

A friend once told me his was ' a hole in the water that you pour money into'.

Last edited by AMCDave

I spent a couple of summers basically living on a boat that was very similar to yours, Lee. It was a 36 foot, 1963, wooden cabin cruiser. We had it in the early 90's. I loved that boat! When I saw your model it brought back memories.

 

I also want to say that I like your illustrated explanation of when and how much to detail. It make sense.

 

Mikki

I never thought about this before, but it’s a great concept.  It also got me thinking about speed.  I don’t usually alter model trains, but when I do, they look better when they are moving because you don’t get to study the flaws.

 

A friend of mine has a saying about old beater (1:1 scale) cars: It looks great on a rainy night on a turnpike going 60 miles an hour.

I will try to keep those hints in mind when planning and constructing the next layout.  I already have set some standards to follow....

 

From a distance, natural placement and eliminating a layout based on a grid pattern can do just as much to add realism as super detailing.  Also, as long as the shape, color and relative size of individual vignettes conform then each feature in the distance need only be a rough representation to trick the eye.

 

Save the intricate details for anything within 2-3 feet and spend the time saved running some trains.   When the mood suits, return to a scene and go nuts if you wish.

 

Bruce

Originally Posted by AG - River Leaf Models:

hi to all,

We discussed this concept few days ago with Mark and Myles.

Personally, I put details for me, as soon you know they are there is enough to see them.

Now the visitors react different, most the time they get very close to everything, something that we(owners) don't do because we know detail are there. 

The other concept that is closed linked is the balance between cars buildings and people.

remember your eye easily can be fooled.

 

 

Andre.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Trainman2001:

Lee, first of all, your work is wonderful! I love the sailing ship. As AMS as I am, you exceed that. Tools in tool boxes... WOW!

 

I follow your guidelines without actually putting specifics to them. At first the fire house was going to be beyond the 4 foot point, but now it's in the foreground and will deserve a little more attention. It's also why the buildings that face the viewer on main street all have interiors since they're all seen. The Victorian station and the substation also fall into the "Up close and personal" viewing range.

 

With that being said, I really like building models and detailing them. So I kind of fall in line with Andre in that I put as much detail on them as I can stand at the moment. Any freight cars that I build need to be close-up models since at any given time they can be right in front of your nose.

 

I like the notion of placing the model cars at distances that best hide their flaws, if they have any. Most of the limited amount of cars I have are of the Brooklin, Conquest and NEO variety so they can stand the scrutiny. For the distances, using the less expensive models make lots of sense.

 

The only time your rule gets violated is when the layout is going to be photographed professionally for a magazine article. Many of those pics will be taken of items further away from the viewer.

 

 

Yes, Andre, Myles and I just had the conversation.  Years ago as I was building an N scale layout, I started building more detailed models than my HO models I built in my teens.  At first, I detailed, as well as one can in N scale, four sides of my buildings, as I have shown in my 'Boyce Homestead' scene.

 

Then as our daughters were born when I was in my mid 30s, I had less time for models.  I still have some of my downtown buildings that are missing backs and sides, because they couldn't be seen.

 

Now as I just play around with O gauge, I anticipate building as Lee says, the most detail will eventually be up front , and less detail, or even missing rear sides of buildings.

 

Very good concept Lee.

Lee, i agree 100% with your premise about level of detail and distance from the viewer. It reminds me of when i used run a shop restoring classic MG's; i'd always ask the customer before i began work on his car whether he wanted a 30 foot, 10 foot or 1 foot car. When they asked what the difference was, i explained "money", ie. time.

The same (time) holds true with model railroading. How much time is spent adding details to our little slice of the world be it adding manhole covers and storm drains to our streets, trash, litter and oily dirt to our switch yards, and so forth determines the level of realism we are able to achieve.

My own railroad was considered "finished" over a dozen years ago when the local chapter of the NMRA asked to make it a stop on one of their monthly layout tours. Finished, yes, but i have since spent the last decade upgrading details in areas 1-2 feet from the edge and continue to do so on a regular basis.  Hence the tag line, "The Never Done Line".

 

jackson, CEO

The Not-So-Great Eastern, aka The Never Done Line

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJmTzIFKvys

Wow, I never ran a shop but restored perhaps a dozen English sports cars over the years: some MGs and a Triumph but I was mostly a Healey guy, and this is where I first ran into this concept.  It is fairly easy and cheap to make a classic car look good from thirty feet.  For one, just hit the wire wheels quickly with silver spray paint and you have added glitz.  From one foot, you can see if they are straight, have old paint flaking under the latest layer of paint, scratched rim, etc.  One-foot restoration of wire wheels is expensive (I know).  

Lee,

A quick aside about wire wheels. Had a customer once who had degreased the splined hubs on his E-Type Jaguar because he didn't want the grease to seep out onto his nice chrome wire wheels. You should have seen a grown man cry when we took a cutting torch to them (as a last resort) in order to remove the wheels to do some brake work.

 

jackson

Lee, I truly enjoy your posts. Your work is absolutely phenomenal.  The distance guideline is really a good idea.  It works for you and I am sure many folks will be able to appreciate your efforts.  I, unfortunately, am cursed with poor eyesight. Therefore, I am not really able to appreciate the effort put into minute details at most any distance.  I do know that I like what I can discern in you efforts, and I am equally sure there are many others who also like it, and are more able to see and discern the detail you have painstakingly applied.  

 

For me, I consider myself lucky to be able to make mechanical repairs, and maybe apply a coat of paint to something without getting too many runs.  These are the cards I have been dealt, and I live with it.  At one time I had envisioned a super layout with great and intricate detail.  My vision started to fail when I was nineteen years old and despite two cornea transplants, it has not been able to be improved to the point where I am comfortable with performing tasks that include painting or applying small parts.

 

When I finally realized that I could not build the layout I had envisioned, I decided to just build a layout with as many trains and mainlines that I could fit into any given space.  

 

Bob S.

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