My first ERR installation.

Rickw2 posted:

Lou1985 posted:

I did my first ERR conversion about two weeks ago on a Lionel F3. Took about 30 minutes to install the AC Commander following along with ERR's instructions. I plan on installing another AC Commander in a F3 and a Cruise Commander and Railsounds in a Williams Alco PA this weekend. Follow along with the instructions and it shouldn't take more than an hour or two tops.

But I've been taking apart Lionel trains since I was about 11 years old (and taking apart and wiring cars since I was 16) so a lot of this stuff is second nature to me. So if you have any questions ask on the forum if you're not sure.

Thanks Lou. Hey, why don't you video your installation? That would be GREAT! Your Williams PA would almost be an identical installation to my Williams FA-1 except a bit bigger.

There's nothing to follow along with the instructions. I could  really use a step by step. Where to cut the wires, where to connect them, how to mount the circuit board, etc. First time jitters.

I'll at least try and take pictures. I'll be drilling holes in the frame to mount the boards and program/run switch. Nothing really hard at all.

That would be great Lou! And Chris, nice job on your loco. I hope I can be as successful. 

So above are pictures of my Williams FA-1. I'm a little hesitant about starting my ERR Cruise Commander upgrade. It's probably not that difficult, but I don't want to fry anything. So before I start messing with wires I have a few questions.

1. Are the yellow and blue wires the "brush" wires? So if I combine the yellow and blue wires from each motor then connect the yellows to the Brush 1 connector and blues to the Brush 2 connector would that be right? Or should I connect a yellow from one motor and a blue from the other motor and then connect to ERR board because the motors spin in opposite directions?

2. I'm assuming the Red wires are AC Hot. Connect them to each other then to AC Hot on ERR board?

3. Also assuming the Black wires attached to the bracket at the base of the motors is the AC Common? Combine them and connect to AC Common on ERR?

4. Not sure how that light bulb is powered. Is the black wire around the bulb hot and the yellow ground? And is the bulb bracket insulated from the frame? It must be right? So if I just leave that alone will it work with ERR?

Any help is much appreciated! I hope it's OK to post this diagram. If not I'll take it down.

Rickw2 posted:

So above are pictures of my Williams FA-1. I'm a little hesitant about starting my ERR Cruise Commander upgrade. It's probably not that difficult, but I don't want to fry anything. So before I start messing with wires I have a few questions.

1. Are the yellow and blue wires the "brush" wires? So if I combine the yellow and blue wires from each motor then connect the yellows to the Brush 1 connector and blues to the Brush 2 connector would that be right? Or should I connect a yellow from one motor and a blue from the other motor and then connect to ERR board because the motors spin in opposite directions?  Yellow to Blue then to board.  Test before installing cab because polarity could may need switched so that forward and front lamp happen together. 

2. I'm assuming the Red wires are AC Hot. Connect them to each other then to AC Hot on ERR board?  Yes. 

3. Also assuming the Black wires attached to the bracket at the base of the motors is the AC Common? Combine them and connect to AC Common on ERR?  Yes. 

4. Not sure how that light bulb is powered. Is the black wire around the bulb hot and the yellow ground? And is the bulb bracket insulated from the frame? It must be right? So if I just leave that alone will it work with ERR?  Yellow is the common so bring it back to board.  Black is Front Lamp. 

Any help is much appreciated! I hope it's OK to post this diagram. If not I'll take it down.

Steims posted:

Rickw2 posted:

So above are pictures of my Williams FA-1. I'm a little hesitant about starting my ERR Cruise Commander upgrade. It's probably not that difficult, but I don't want to fry anything. So before I start messing with wires I have a few questions.

1. Are the yellow and blue wires the "brush" wires? So if I combine the yellow and blue wires from each motor then connect the yellows to the Brush 1 connector and blues to the Brush 2 connector would that be right? Or should I connect a yellow from one motor and a blue from the other motor and then connect to ERR board because the motors spin in opposite directions?  Yellow to Blue then to board.  Test before installing cab because polarity could may need switched so that forward and front lamp happen together. 

2. I'm assuming the Red wires are AC Hot. Connect them to each other then to AC Hot on ERR board?  Yes. 

3. Also assuming the Black wires attached to the bracket at the base of the motors is the AC Common? Combine them and connect to AC Common on ERR?  Yes. 

4. Not sure how that light bulb is powered. Is the black wire around the bulb hot and the yellow ground? And is the bulb bracket insulated from the frame? It must be right? So if I just leave that alone will it work with ERR?  Yellow is the common so bring it back to board.  Black is Front Lamp. 

Any help is much appreciated! I hope it's OK to post this diagram. If not I'll take it down.

 

Thank You Steims! I'll probably have more questions. Haven't even mentioned sound yet. I also bought the Railsounds board. Interesting that the Williams speaker is mounted vertically. I guess I can leave it or install the ERR speaker. Does anyone have a preference?

Red wire is center rail, black wire ground. Tie the two yellow brush wires together the attach to one brush terminal on the board. Tie the two blue brush wires together then attach to the other brush terminal. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that most diesels have the motors running in opposite rotation, so make sure you have them "cross-wired" so that all the wheels go in one direction.

I wire up the motors and the wires  to the center rail and outside rail before I wire in the ERR commander.

I check the motors with DC power the make sure both are turning a same direction and not in a bind.

CBS072 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that most diesels have the motors running in opposite rotation, so make sure you have them "cross-wired" so that all the wheels go in one direction.

I wire up the motors and the wires  to the center rail and outside rail before I wire in the ERR commander.

I check the motors with DC power the make sure both are turning a same direction and not in a bind.

My test is turning the flywheels in opposite directions. When doing that, the loco wheels turn in the same direction. So I have to "cross wire" right?

Lou1985 posted:

Red wire is center rail, black wire ground. Tie the two yellow brush wires together the attach to one brush terminal on the board. Tie the two blue brush wires together then attach to the other brush terminal. 

This is assuming that your motors should turn in the same direction for your wheels to turn in the same direction, right?

The flywheels need to spin in the opposite directions for the locomotive wheels to move in tandem with each other. 

If Yellow-Yellow to Hot and Blue-Blue to Common gives you flywheels spinning opposite then wire that way to ERR board.  If they spin same way then go with Yellow-Blue configuration. 

Rickw2 posted:

CBS072 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that most diesels have the motors running in opposite rotation, so make sure you have them "cross-wired" so that all the wheels go in one direction.

I wire up the motors and the wires  to the center rail and outside rail before I wire in the ERR commander.

I check the motors with DC power the make sure both are turning a same direction and not in a bind.

My test is turning the flywheels in opposite directions. When doing that, the loco wheels turn in the same direction. So I have to "cross wire" right?

I wire the motors up and test run on a 3 foot section of GG track to see if both engine trucks are running the same way using a DC transformer.  Sometimes both motors turn the same way and sometimes they do not.  The main thing is that the engine runs one direction with both motors wired together and when I switch the direction switch on my DC transformer, the engine runs the other direction with no binding. 

CBS072 posted:

Rickw2 posted:

CBS072 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that most diesels have the motors running in opposite rotation, so make sure you have them "cross-wired" so that all the wheels go in one direction.

I wire up the motors and the wires  to the center rail and outside rail before I wire in the ERR commander.

I check the motors with DC power the make sure both are turning a same direction and not in a bind.

My test is turning the flywheels in opposite directions. When doing that, the loco wheels turn in the same direction. So I have to "cross wire" right?

I wire the motors up and test run on a 3 foot section of GG track to see if both engine trucks are running the same way using a DC transformer.  Sometimes both motors turn the same way and sometimes they do not.  The main thing is that the engine runs one direction with both motors wired together and when I switch the direction switch on my DC transformer, the engine runs the other direction with no binding. 

Here's video of the next engine that will be updated with ERR. 

When I install any ERR commanders and railsounds boards I glue down styrene plastic between the board and the frame ( but not under the heat sink)  so to keep the boards from  shorting out if the screw comes out that is holding the commander board to the frame or if the double sided tape fails.  (have not purchased the ERR boards for this engine)

CBS072 posted:

CBS072 posted:

Rickw2 posted:

CBS072 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that most diesels have the motors running in opposite rotation, so make sure you have them "cross-wired" so that all the wheels go in one direction.

I wire up the motors and the wires  to the center rail and outside rail before I wire in the ERR commander.

I check the motors with DC power the make sure both are turning a same direction and not in a bind.

My test is turning the flywheels in opposite directions. When doing that, the loco wheels turn in the same direction. So I have to "cross wire" right?

I wire the motors up and test run on a 3 foot section of GG track to see if both engine trucks are running the same way using a DC transformer.  Sometimes both motors turn the same way and sometimes they do not.  The main thing is that the engine runs one direction with both motors wired together and when I switch the direction switch on my DC transformer, the engine runs the other direction with no binding. 

Here's video of the next engine that will be updated with ERR. 

When I install any ERR commanders and railsounds boards I glue down styrene plastic between the board and the frame ( but not under the heat sink)  so to keep the boards from  shorting out if the screw comes out that is holding the commander board to the frame or if the double sided tape fails.  (have not purchased the ERR boards for this engine)

 

I see you have wired yellow to yellow and blue to blue. Your wheels are moving properly but I can't tell if the motors are spinning in the same or opposite directions.

I checked the motors and they are spinning in opposite directions from each other..  i think I have had others that turn the same direction,  This engine will be number 11 that I have installed ERR DC Commander in.  Also this engine is a "Johnny Cash" engine made from parts and parts.  The engine is a MTH Santa Fe Dash 9. it started life at the MTH plant as a dummy engine without motors, when I got it from a forum member it was powered. The cab and frame is MTH, the e-unit was made by Williams Trains and I think the motors and trucks are also made by Williams with the MTH truck frames screwed on to them.

Wow! I never heard of an engine put together like that. Interesting to know that some motors are wired like that and some are opposite.

I used the yellow and blue wire to length the motor wires due to that was  what I find in the "ERR extra parts box".  I purchase my small wire for engine repairs at Radio Shack and I have other colors of wire that I have used on other ERR installs.  

Chris Lonero posted:

No problems to report it is pretty straight foward with good instructions.  You just need to take your time.  

+1

In addition, I found the ERR boards take up less room, allowing wire management to be easier.

ChessieFan72 posted:

Chris Lonero posted:

No problems to report it is pretty straight foward with good instructions.  You just need to take your time.  

+1

In addition, I found the ERR boards take up less room, allowing wire management to be easier.

Yes the board is smaller. But I never got any instructions! Yes, the online manual has information, but it's hardly instructions. Maybe when ERR had their own web site it was better.

The manuals available on-line are the same one's that used to be printed and included in the kits. We didn't see the need to print hundreds of copies when they are easily viewed and printed from the web site. If you don't own a computer or printer, then you probably aren't reading this...

sdmann posted:

The manuals available on-line are the same one's that used to be printed and included in the kits. We didn't see the need to print hundreds of copies when they are easily viewed and printed from the web site. If you don't own a computer or printer, then you probably aren't reading this...

 

Yes I am reading this but I was hoping the manual would be more instructional than informational. That's why I have all these questions. And, I didn't know the online manuals are the same as the one's you used to include in the kits. No need to print them for me.

Rick, Yes the manual that you print out are exactly the same as we got from ERR when l started doing my own TMCC conversions. I will say that with ERR we did have Ken who was available to speak with on the phone. I would agree with what was stated earlier on this thread, take your time and there are plenty of folks here to help with questions.

Ray

Rayin"S" posted:

Rick, Yes the manual that you print out are exactly the same as we got from ERR when l started doing my own TMCC conversions. I will say that with ERR we did have Ken who was available to speak with on the phone. I would agree with what was stated earlier on this thread, take your time and there are plenty of folks here to help with questions.

Ray

I think I did talk to Ken when I first started thinking about upgrading my FA-1.

Does anyone know if this light fixture is isolated from the frame? If it is, can I hook it up to the "Front lamp" connector on the Cruise Commander? Or can I just leave it as is? And what would happen if I leave it the way it is?

And is there an LED replacement I can just screw into this fixture? Thanks (I haven't touched anything yet)

 It is not isolated from the frame. The bulb socket is clipped right to the frame.  The yellow wire is also connected to the common.   If you do nothing then the light will be on full whenever the rails are powered.  With ERR you can control the light with remote.   The board will control the light not the track.  Hook up like I mentioned in earlier post if you want to control it.  

Rickw2 posted:

Lou1985 posted:

Red wire is center rail, black wire ground. Tie the two yellow brush wires together the attach to one brush terminal on the board. Tie the two blue brush wires together then attach to the other brush terminal. 

This is assuming that your motors should turn in the same direction for your wheels to turn in the same direction, right?

On every dual motored locomotive I've ever worked on (either AC or can motored) the brushes on the same side of the locomotive are always tied together. I'm 100% sure that you could wire your Williams FA exactly how I described and wired my Williams PA and it'll work perfectly. 

Ok Lou, I'm gonna wire it that way first.  Assuming I ever get the courage to start. Currently, my engine is sitting on my desk exactly how you see it in the pictures.

And, I see you have wired the light to the ERR.

You've done your homework Rick.  It's time to start clipping and stripping. 

Steims posted:

You've done your homework Rick.  It's time to start clipping and stripping. 

Thanks for the encouragement!  

Rickw2 posted:

Steims posted:

You've done your homework Rick.  It's time to start clipping and stripping. 

Thanks for the encouragement!  

OK, I dove in. I don't know if anyone else uses wire nuts but as you can see, I did. I haven't done any wire management yet.

All works perfectly! EXCEPT, when I hook up the Railsounds Commander it works great and sounds great for about 30 seconds then it becomes unresponsive to Cab1 commands. It either stops or moves slowly and the engine sounds are still on but no horn, bell, cab chatter, just engine revving. The only way to stop it is to cut the power. Then when I apply power again everything works, for about 30 seconds then unresponsive again.

If I unplug the RS from the Cruise Cmdr the engine acts as it should with no problem for as long as I want.

Any ideas? Is the RS board defective? Any troubleshooting I can try? Thanks in advance.

if the sound board is making contact with the R2LC board something might be shorting out.  I believe ERR gives you a double sided foam tape to go under the sound board.

Marty

martind posted:

if the sound board is making contact with the R2LC board something might be shorting out.  I believe ERR gives you a double sided foam tape to go under the sound board.

Marty

Thanks for your response Marty. Yes, ERR does provide double sided foam tape. I cut it in half and doubled it between the two boards. Maybe something is still making it through? I can add a layer of Scotch heavy duty double sided foam tape to make sure. Does that make sense? I used the Scotch heavy duty foam tape to install the speaker to the chassis. It holds pretty good.

It's not a short from your description, welcome to the new world.   I think you are experiencing the issues that we've been researching for some time, that being the extra load of the sound board affects the serial data that controls functions on the Cruise Commander as well as triggering the sounds.

One way of addressing this is one that GGG swears by, and it's worth a shot.  remove the purple wire from the 4-pin connector for the sound board on the Cruise Commander and solder it to pin 24 of the R4LC socket.  I would solder near the Cruise Commander PCB away from the R4LC.  Obviously, make sure this wire doesn't short to anything else!

Another method of dealing with this is to add a serial data buffer.  Ignore the colors, they're there when I make this in advance so I know where they go, I put it in heatshrink.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's not a short from your description, welcome to the new world.   I think you are experiencing the issues that we've been researching for some time, that being the extra load of the sound board affects the serial data that controls functions on the Cruise Commander as well as triggering the sounds.

One way of addressing this is one that GGG swears by, and it's worth a shot.  remove the purple wire from the 4-pin connector for the sound board on the Cruise Commander and solder it to pin 24 of the R4LC socket.  I would solder near the Cruise Commander PCB away from the R4LC.  Obviously, make sure this wire doesn't short to anything else!

Another method of dealing with this is to add a serial data buffer.  Ignore the colors, they're there when I make this in advance so I know where they go, I put it in heatshrink.

Oy! You can probably tell by looking at my pictures, all those wire nuts, that I'm not a solderer. Your second method I don't understand. So does that leave me up the creek? Anything else I can do? The RS board isn't defective?  Will a different RS board possibly not have this issue or do they ALL have this issue as you say you've been researching this for some time.

When you programmed the engine (ENG + NUMBER + SET) did you also set the feature code (AUX1 + number) before turning off the power and putting the switch back to run? 

Lou1985 posted:

When you programmed the engine (ENG + NUMBER + SET) did you also set the feature code (AUX1 + number) before turning off the power and putting the switch back to run? 

Yes I did. I used number 6. But, I admit I forgot to do that at first, but then I programmed it again and did it again pressing ENG 22 SET AUX1 6 then turn off power, switch back to RUN, then power up, ENG 22 then off we go. You think if I used a different number it would make a difference? Worth a try right. Anything but soldering  

Any valid configuration number should have the same result.  If you want a strobe, then AUX1/6 is the correct code.  If you want a cab light controlled by the smoke controls, then AUX1/5 is the correct code.  Obviously, if you have a smoke unit, AUX1/8 is the correct code.

One of the issues with this problem is the fact that it's very intermittent, it doesn't show up in most installations.  Knowing a bit about how the serial data is handled on the cruise board, I suspect it's something on that end, but I haven't had the time when I've seen the issue to actually track it down, so I've usually just put a band-aid on it.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Any valid configuration number should have the same result.  If you want a strobe, then AUX1/6 is the correct code.  If you want a cab light controlled by the smoke controls, then AUX1/5 is the correct code.  Obviously, if you have a smoke unit, AUX1/8 is the correct code.

One of the issues with this problem is the fact that it's very intermittent, it doesn't show up in most installations.  Knowing a bit about how the serial data is handled on the cruise board, I suspect it's something on that end, but I haven't had the time when I've seen the issue to actually track it down, so I've usually just put a band-aid on it.

So when I call ERR and explain the problem, what do I ask for? A new cruise board or a new sound board? Your patch suggestions are thoughtful and helpful but not something I'm comfortable doing.

I'm not going to add a strobe or cab light, I just have to pick a code to enter so I entered 6.

Thanks for your replies John.

I'd explain the problem.  My sense is the cruise board is the offending component, but I have no hard data to substantiate that opinion.

Welcome to the world of upgrades, sometimes they don't go exactly as planned.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd explain the problem.  My sense is the cruise board is the offending component, but I have no hard data to substantiate that opinion.

Welcome to the world of upgrades, sometimes they don't go exactly as planned.

Well your sense is better than mine! This is very disappointing especially since I was planning on upgrading other locos. 

Thanks again.