My first layout

Hi Kris,

Was wondering what happened to you? Your plan looks good to me. I hadn't seen the foam used for grid underneath like in your picture. Probably a good idea for keeping things light weight. As for the layout plans, Have you tried SCARM? It's free and has a Super-O track library as well as Fastrack. Thought you might enjoy fiddling around with layout plans?

I am not much of a layout designer, but maybe others will be along that are and will offer comments. Moonman and DoubleDaz among others are good at layout planning. I am still trying to figure out what I want to do for an expansion to mine. Can't seem to come up with anything I like. At least you have ideas of what you want to do.

We moved about 3 years ago and I am still looking for stuff. We still have a small stack of boxes that have not yet been unpacked. Good luck with your planning and layout building. Hope you get some trains running soon.

Kris,

Here are some examples to show how the Super O and FasTrack designs you referred to might fit in the space as I understand it. I hesitate to post them though because the track doesn't fit in SCARM in 2 places in either Super O version using SCARM's default tolerance setting of 2mm (.0279"). I don't want to lead you astray, so take the designs for what they are, just examples. I'm not familiar with Super O, so I don't know if there is enough "give" for them to fit or how easy it is to cut them to size if things really don't fit. I didn't try other designs, so there may be something similar to what you want where all the tracks fit. Maybe Carl or someone with Super O experience will offer their opinion or come up with a such a design.

As you can see in the Super O example, decreasing the width of the layout decreases the design on the right side quite a bit. But the design would work in the space you have if the tracks actually fit in real life.

I did the FasTrack design a little different than the example so you could run 2 trains. As you can see, FasTrack switches can be used, so I'm not sure why you'd want to use another brand of switches.

Super O 60°

Super 0 90°

FasTrack

Hi rtr12 and Dave

Merry Christmas.

Dave thanks for the  designs, I have Demel will cut it make it fit.  The design you posted are perfect and this what I was looking for. I plan on building this layout in the middle or late Spring of 2017. It is still in the idea stage but your design help has brought from idea in my head to reality.

RTR12

I have been off the forum due to selling our Coop and purchasing a house. We have more or less settled into the house and are trying to make it a home. I still have a lot of refinements and project to do around the house but I have some time to think about getting back to hobby and finally building a layout.

I know it takes a while to get settled in and get things the way you want them. Try not to overwork yourself! Good luck with it all and Merry Christmas to you too.

NVOCC5, it looks like you're doing all the necessary research before you start building .  The only tip I can add is maybe to shy away from the Fastrack as it's unbearably loud.  The plastic base the rails sit on seem to amplify the sound.  If the noise doesn't bother you, it shouldn't be an issue.  Put a couple pieces of fastrack together and slide a car back and forth on them, then do the same thing with Atlas O track.  The difference is extremely noticeable.  It may make your significant other a little less annoyed. 

Just my 2 cents though.

Thank you for the replies.

Dave

I have seen post that Fastrack switches fail out the box. That is why I was asking for what other manufactures would you recommend for this type of layout.

RTR12

Roman was not built in one day but the mission critical stuff needs to have been fixed yesterday. I have gotten most the mission critical issue items done. We had friends and family over for Christmas in the new house.  I understand what you mean, thanks for the advise.  If you plan on being at York in April of 2017 let me know, I told the wife I am going for two days, Thursday and Friday.

Trainguymcgee

I read a lot on this forum and other sources about the O gauge hobby so much that drives my wife nuts. I could agree with you more about the noise level with Fastrack. But unfortunately I have a ton of Fastrack because of my temp layouts that I have done over the years. Note the below video I am using O-72 Fastrack on a bare wooden floor.

https://youtu.be/ZYbHyusVyIo

The below video I am using two moving blanket and 5 Fastrack loops from O-31 up to and including O-72 notice the difference in the sound level.

https://youtu.be/oj_JvFDhTVk

This is why I am planning on placing the carpet on the 4x8 Fastrack layout to lower the noise level.  I have read thread that suggest what type and color carpet to use to get a nice look to the layout and to lower the noise level.

When I build the permanent layout I will move toward using Atlas or GarGraves track and sell the Fastrack, but right now it is what it is.

   The Super O is easy to trim , but won't have the interlocking snap at that joint. So it must be secured to the layout there, unless the track is firmly planted and can't slide apart, or a brace is soldered on the rails, etc.

nvocc5 posted:

I have seen post that Fastrack switches fail out the box. That is why I was asking for what other manufactures would you recommend for this type of layout.

In that case, I don't think anyone would argue that Ross switches are the best, but I have no idea how easy/hard they are to mate with FasTrack. Google says there are a couple of dated threads here, but neither one says if the OP actually used the Ross switches. It looks like the key is using pins to mate FasTrack to tubular track and then to Ross, but I'm not sure there is really anything wrong with FasTrack switches in the first place, I have no experience with them.
https://ogrforum.com/t...witches-and-fastrack
https://ogrforum.com/t...ck-and-ross-switches

That said, the bigger problem will be fitment since Ross does not make a switch that matches the profiles of those used in the design I posted. Here's an example showing what mixing in Ross switches does to the design and this doesn't include any transition pieces that are needed. The basic design FasTrack O42 is green, Ross O31 yellow and Ross O42 gray. Plus, each design already has "S" curves in the crossover that are going to problematic and probably require slower speeds, but you can see how much worse using O31 would make things. Anything is doable, just not sure it's worth the effort.

Going with larger turnouts to make a crossover makes for less angle difference in the S curve.

Ross would also be angled by number vs curve measurement wouldn't they.

Adriatic posted:

Going with larger turnouts to make a crossover makes for less angle difference in the S curve.

Ross would also be angled by number vs curve measurement wouldn't they.

Yes, but the footprint becomes the problem given the desired 8' length. You can see how the #4s in blue further extends the length needed beyond the 96". That's the problem with limited space. Personally, given the tables are 30"x96", I'd be inclined to try an overhang to increase the length and width (depth), but then you have the added problem of using all foam for the decking and framing that might not support such an overhang, especially if there is any chance that someone will lean on the edges. I know from experience that a 48"x96" sheet of 1" thick rigid foam will support track and a train on a 30"x96" table because I had such a set up with an oval around the perimeter for several months, but I'm not sure of the polystyrene that was used in the example referred to in the link.

OK I can't check it myself till I get another PC and hadn't even noticed the length issue there yet.

Are 42 fittable with a 36 for the spur.

I have to wonder if runners of thin wood strips vertically along the foam grid would help structurally with only a little weight added.

ADRIATIC,

Ross doesn't offer an O36 and FasTrack doesn't offer an O42. The FT O48 (and larger) is 5" longer than the O36 and since the inner oval was O36, I used O36 for the crossover. The FT O31 has the same footprint as the O42, so no savings in length there, just the angle of the spur would change. And it's not recommended to cut switches to fit, so I didn't bother to mess with doing so.

And given the layout dimensions, I didn't mess with adding fillers between the switches in the crossovers to relieve some of the "S" curve and AFAIK #4 switches would need fillers in order to get acceptable ctr2ctr clearance. #4s are generally for yards where tighter clearances are acceptable because of the low speeds.

As far as wood strips go, I suppose they'd add some support for an overhang situation, but I'm not sure anything is really gained by substituting Ross (or any other brand) switch for the FasTrack switches.

FWIW, while doing some research just now, I ran across Kris' original thread from Nov 2015 where much of this subject has already been discussed. So, I'm not sure why a new thread was started, especially without linking back to the old thread so we didn't have to reinvent the wheel.

Some folks really like the Fastrack switches (and the Fastrack). About all I can remember reading as far as problems with them are that they sometimes need their limit switches adjusted. That would not be a deal breaker for me, if I was using Fastrack. I was more worried about noise, but many folks here have reported that carpet and other things really quiet things down.

I agree with Dave, for me it wouldn't be worth the trouble to use different switches with Fastrack. I like everything to match track wise anyway. Fastrack is a well designed track system and everything is meant to fit together a certain way, as it was designed. Wouldn't be worth it to me to try and change all that, I would take my chances with the limit switches and if something else fails, Lionel does a good job of standing behind their products. Of course, just my opinion here, FWIW.

Kris, I won't be going to York, too far for me, but enjoy your visit. Hope you find some good buys. I may try to make it one of these times though. It's on my bucket list.

I kinda agree on it not being "worth it" to go Ross, except if you know the long range goal is going to be a layout using Ross switches and a "modeling track". In that case it's an investment in the future....That doesn't fit here .

Dear Gentleman

Thank you for your reply.

Dear Dave

The original thread which you correctly pointed back in 2015 what based on 5 loops and no switches. That design has been modified to just the two semi permanent layouts which Super O and Fastrack O-36 and O-48 only. You did a great design for it and I am grateful and that will be the layout.  I just heard so many good comments about Ross and Gavgrave and I was hoping to incorporate that into this design. But as a picture is worth a thousand, everyone can clearly see that will not fit into this layout.

Dear ADRIATIC and Rtr12

O.K. I will go with the Fastrack O-36 remote switches and hope for the best. The pricing I have seen start from $66.00 up to $100 per switch. I will start saving my money up and when I get to York in April 2017 maybe I can find a good deal.

Kris, I understand there were a lot of changes. I didn't intend to come across as complaining so much as letting ADRIATIC know where he could find more info. Many of us start new threads, I've had several myself over the years waiting for space to become available for a layout. And the space I was going to end up with kept changing which dictated new designs. A link would have saved me some time, mostly looking for more info about the foam decking/frame you want to use. My memory is not as good as it used to be, so I had forgotten we discussed some of this back then.

Re: price of switches. Given the size of the layout, the location of the switches and the fact that you want to build a larger permanent layout at some point, have you considered using manual switches? They can be had for less than $45.

I haven't looked at any for quite a while, but the resale value of Fastrack used to be pretty good a few years ago. You might be able to recover a fair portion of your Fastrack expenses when you decide to switch brands? Then again if it's a long way off, things could change with the resale values? Also considering good, working, used switches at York is an option too. Just be careful with what you buy, I have not had real good luck with some of the used Atlas switches I purchased. By the time I ordered parts and repaired some of them I could have just about bought a new switch. But, I got most of them working and they are now almost as good as new. Only one was too far gone and became a parts donor.

Chris,

  Definitely pick up some Command Control FasTrack switches, they are way cool and work perfectly off track power, controlled with the Legacy Hand Held RC or the TMCC hand held RC.

PCRR/Dave

Dear rtr12

Fastrack worked great for my floor layouts. It is not to say it did not have it's problems, ie: walking apart. (binder clip work great for fixing this problem). Each track system has it's pros and cons, right now I am studying which future system would work for me.  This is way down the road for me maybe in two years time if not later. The three companies I am look at are the following:

Atlas (since I do not run PW and do not need magnetraction).

Ross: for me they are a local company and they are down the road (about 30-45 min ride).

GarGraves: I saw their demo at the York April 2016 event and I was impressed by their product.

Dear PCRR/Dave

For this layout I will be going with the Fastrack O-36 remote switches, Lionel O 6-12046 and Lionel O 6-12045 and they will be controlled by MTH AIU thru the MTH TIU. Doubledaz, rtr12, Adriatic and yourself has made the case for Lionel Fastrack and I will incorporate that into this layout.

Dear DoubleDaz

Not a problem about the complaining, we are all here to answer question as best we can and from our modeling experience.  The original idea was not having to pull everything out of storage boxes and have some kind of per made semi permanent layout.  I can not find the thread but a RR club on the west coast uses a semi permanent modeller based on  2x2 layout to build the larger layout. It works great for them and is easy to transport and easy to be placed in storage. However for me it would be a real pain for me because if I  maybe used the layout once a year and for me it would be one giant jig saw puzzle. Now I have a house and I have some space for a semi permanent layout that has to be stored this idea made sense.  Now what kind of track configuration would go on that 4x8 sheet of foam was the next big question to answer. Thank you for helping me out on that part of the build.

4x8 foam layout was original made by Postwar Trainman see below link for the original thread.

https://ogrforum.com/t...x8-foam-track-layout

You are certainly correct about each track system having it's own pros and cons and none are perfect. Different systems meet the needs of different folks. It's good to have the selection that we have these days. I started out wanting to use Fastrack, but after further investigation the noise drove me away. I looked at all the other track systems available and ended up with Atlas. I have been very happy with that choice and would also choose it again if I had to start over. 

Many here swear by Ross and Gargraves too, and I may have been swayed to Ross if they were local to me as they are to you. Both of those are good systems as well. Possibly the most  used of anything available. These two are probably less expensive than Atlas or Fastrack as well. The solid nickel-silver rails Atlas uses were a big draw for me. I decided I really liked the look of them, they are quiet and flat on top. Cost is similar to Fastrack. I still may get some Fastrack someday and do a temporary layout. I think it's a good system overall and I still like the looks of it too. By using carpet as you are doing, many here have reported that Fastrack is much quieter.

This book, Trackwork for Toy Trains by Peter Riddle helped me with my choice. It is pretty good and covers most of the track available today. Gives the pros and cons and other good information. Well worth reading, IMO.

Dear rtr12

Thanks for the advise and the book info. Today is the first day I sat down with the family in the living room and pulled out a diesel engine I have been working on since March of this year. This thing next year I get a chance I will order the book.

Hope you like it, I thought it was good and informative. Everyone is different, but Peter Riddles writing style is easy reading for me, unlike some of the ones that put you to sleep.

They had some used ones on Amazon for around $10. I was always buying new books when I found one that was interesting, but have gotten some used ones lately and they have been just fine. At least the ones I have gotten so far. Good luck.

Hi all

Here are the latest updates and photo for the Super O layout.

I have most of the pcs that I need I just laid them out on the floor to get an idea of what I have and what I am missing.  I also experimented with extend the layout with two additional loops to see what it would look like and get some raw measurements.

I purchased the CTT's for Jan & Feb 2014 issues in regards to the foam layout, they are in the mail and I am looking forward to read them.

I also purchased a foam cutter stay tuned, (Same Bat channel same Bat Time) I saw a demonstration of Foam Factory  products I was really impressed at the Big E train event.

The Fastrack idea for the layout went out the window. I am going with Atlas track and the Fastrack is for sale at this time. When I had a floor layout Fastrack was fast to set up but extremely loud. Now I am going with a semi permanent layout I selected Atlas as my track. At this time I am looking for second hand Atlas in good condition. Most of my engines are modern and the older engines are going to be upgraded with ERR or PS3 boards.

Also the two Enduro 8 ft Banquet resin tables when out the window as well. I looked at the ceiling pulley system and various other methods of storage methods as well. I am looking at the fold out legs from the wall to give the layout support. This idea is still being refined and additional information will be posted soon.  Here is a picture for what I am trying to do more or less. The table top comes off for storage and the support legs fold back to the wall. Space the final frontier, these are the voyages of an O Gauge hobbyist trying to build a layout in tight spaces.

My experience with FT switches.  I have 14 FT switches, various radiuses. O48, O36 and O31. I've had no issues with the O48. O36, I've had two issues, both were loose wire connections. O31, one loose wires and one the bracket that holds the switch motor was loose. There are a lot of screws to remove on the base plate to get to that motor.  I now always check the wire connections and tighten if necessary. On a recent O31 purchase, the wires were trimmed to short. The assembler installed wire and insulation under the clamp and came out immediately when doing tug test. Annoying mostly because it's time consuming to fix.

Steve

Beware of used Atlas switches, I think you will be ok with the track though. Most of the used switches I got ended up costing just about what a new one would have after I got repair parts, new switch machines etc. Also the newer ones have some good improvements in the size of the wiring connecting the switch rails and other things. There is a small plastic snap in piece that is included with the new switches (kind of like a ramp) that helps keep the trains on the rails. Some of those were missing on the used switches as well. Atlas has repair parts, but if it's at all possible I would get new switches.

rtr12 posted:

I haven't looked at any for quite a while, but the resale value of Fastrack used to be pretty good a few years ago...

Still is, used track at retail or close HERE, plus shipping!

Yes, the Fastrack resale prices certainly do still look pretty good!  

Hi all

Sorry for the delay in replying but Yahoo must have did an upgrade and block all my e-mail notation from OGR.

My LHS has a wonder gentlemen named Skip and I will be dropping off the Super O 112 switches with him to do the fine tuning. He is a truly an old fashion repair tech and he has worked on these for years.

In regards to the Atlas switches I picked up a one right and one left hand switches. If the Atlas solenoid does not work I can pick up a new one for $19 each which includes free shipping. It is still cheaper than purchasing two new ones. Again this is buy be aware but if you factor in to purchase price that you are going have problems and need replacement parts it might or might not be worth it.

Fastrack is a wonderful product when I used it for floor layout once or twice a year. Now I going to permeant layout I like the Atlas track better. I purchased the MTH track, Lionel 027, Atlas and Fastrack over the years and I personally prefer the Atlas track. Now I have to go out and purchase a Welding gun to solder the power leads to Atlas track.

The price of Atlas when up as well over the past few years. Well I glad I not going to be selling my Fastrack at a loss but breaking even. If anyone needs any Fastrack drop me a line to my personal email in my profile and we can play "Let's make a deal".

Hi Kris,

I thought I posted these links earlier, but now I can't find where I posted them here or anywhere else? Anyway, here they are again and my apologies if you saw the others and this is a repeat.

Forum member Ingeniero No1 used Atlas track on his layout and came up with this method of connecting power to the track. I copied his idea on my layout and it works great. I believe we both used OGR wire, using #16 drops to each track block. Anyway, if you like this method you won't need the big soldering gun and it might save you a few bucks. Also this is real easy to change if you ever want to move something or do some re-arranging. Alex has a link to his build thread at the bottom of his posts. Lots of good info there, also some more tips on using Atlas track. 

The first link has the parts he used and a couple of pictures. The second link has more details in more pictures.

Ingeniero No1's Atlas Track Wiring Method Using Screws Material List

Ingeniero No1's Atlas Track Wiring Method Using Screws More Pics

Dear rtr12

I though you sent me this earlier, maybe I just getting old and forgetting things?

Dear Rob

Thanks for the link. Are you going to York in Oct?

Kris

Hi Kris,

I think it's more than likely me that's getting old and forgetful and not you! 

Hi Group

I just want to give you a quick update of my first O gauge layout. Before I go any further I need to thank Carl (Moonman), Dave (Doubledaz) and Eliot Scher for help on many redesigns and guidance. I would like to thank every  else that contributed to this design as well and not leave anyone out.  Here is final version of the layout using Atlas track.  This started out as a simple 4x8 sheet and grew into this layout. Note: the Super O layout might be built a later date. Right now I want to finish one project at a time or I will never get either one built. The Atlas track is on order or in house. Note: Atlas just got a shipment into from the Far East and should at the distributors by March.  (This information is directly from Atlas). I have to store this layout from the rafters in the garage via a pulley system if any one has any advice, suggestions or comments I am listening. I will start a new thread on the pulley system or you can add your comments here.

Here is the thread about the pulley system https://ogrforum.com/t...ulley-storage-system

Dear All

I know it has been a long time but this project is now scheduled April 2018. I have been busy with the house and that has taken up most of my time and funds. I will try to keep you updated with my progress.

Dear All

Here is the latest news in regards to the Layout pulley storage system.  The plan has been revised and revised again,  here are the latest details:

This layout final dims are 6 feet wide by 10 feet long. This will be a Murphy bed style layout with a pull system. Lumber has been delivered and in storage in the garage and waiting for warm weather to start the layout base. The new layout base is larger than the original track design for future expansion.  I have some ideas for the future expansion but let us get the current design operation and then we we will look at the expansion.

One phase 4 gang electrical box is waiting for the warm weather to arrive in New England states to be installed, this is with it own circuit breaker.

The carpenter is on vacation from Feb to the end of March of this year for the project has been pushed a few weeks.  On top of that my oldest is getting married and that is pushing the project back even more but so be it, I waited forty years to build this so a few weeks will not be a big deal.

I would like to thank everyone for their help in building this layout, four houses later and 40 years later a dream is becoming a realty.  I would like to thank my wife for understand that this layout will be built this year and I am going to York in Oct of this year. So whatever she want done in the house speak now or wait until next year to get it done.

https://youtu.be/-8JjlbARySI

HI

The platform has finally has been built.  The table is 10 feet long by 6 feet wide by 36 inches high and it is fixed to the wall.

Sorry for not reporting earlier but I busy with house and various our issues.

Looks good Kris! Glad to see you were finally able to get back to the layout work and get a break form working on your house. Will the layout be stationary where it is or are you going to make it fold up against the wall. I think stationary would be good if possible, and probably easier too. Either way it's a good start! Please keep us posted on your progress.

Hi

It's stationary, too much trouble to go the other way. It's too cold outside to work on it at this time in the Northeast. I am going to wait until it warms up a bite.