My first TMCC engine

It still sounds like a ground plane issue or perhaps some sort of conductivity issue in that area that is not letting the signal to the area. There was a suggestion made at York for a quick and dirty ground plane checker. They took a length of extension cord wire and connected to the ground of the plug (Do not connect it to the power prongs of the plug) Plug it into a grounded outlet and lay the wire along the track in the problem area. This should help you with the signal

You will find out lots of details on TMCC signal problems atthis article.

Many thanks. The problem was solved by replacing a 2 wire AC extension cord with a 3 wire. It worked like magic!

Yes you must have the ground pin on the TMCC base in a grounded outlet, a two wire plug will never do

Has anyone tried to install one of the 4 rubber tires on this (Lionel BB1)
engine? The manual says "Simply slip the tires around the grooved wheels." I recall seeing somewhere a comment that you need to have a dealer do it. I tried to install one, and gave up.

Reason I ask, is I tried running the engine in Conventional mode, and when you ask it to move forward, it grunts, goes nowhere, until all of a sudden it spins the wheels and races way too fast. I thought maybe the tires would help.

Bob: I also was unable to install the tires after many attempts. I then heard about Bullfrog Snot here on this forum. I was skeptical but it worked! Good luck with yours.

Well, I have to say that the traction tires aren't going to fix this IMO. The symptom of the missing traction tires would be that you'd get wheel spin and minimal traction, but the cruise control would not be affected. You do have Odyssey enabled, right?

quote:

Originally posted by gunrunnerjohn:
..... You do have Odyssey enabled, right?

Well, I think so. I tried running the engine in 8 different modes:

• Direct from the Postwar ZW transformer: Conventional
  The operation was terrible. Crank up the voltage a little, the engine initally does not move, then it lurches forward. A slightly higher track voltage and it is racing out of control. Any attempt at getting it to run at a reasonable speed results in stopping. Odyssey did not help.
  
• ZW transformer plus Command Control using CAB-1. I did not even know this was an option. Apparently you do not need the PowerMaster. This acted uncontrollably as above, but Odyssey was noticeably better.
  
• ZW plus Powermaster using CAB-1 not much better. Still races uncontrollably.
  
• ZW plus Powermaster plus Command Control using CAB-1. With Odyssey on, this is the best combination.
  

I think the Odyssey switch in the engine may not have been working in all the cases. It may have been making bad contact. I had gotten some contradictory results. But eventually I found the best way to run it.

2 problems remain: using TMCC & Odyssey, the engine starts up so slowly that it stops consistently at a nearby O-22 switch. When it does get going, I can see a flickering as it goes over the switch, but at a slow speed, the engine stops. I am thinking I need to put a wire or 2 between the engine and the dummy section so if one section still has power, they both will. I need to do some testing to see if it is the center rail or the outside rails that are the problem.

Other item is the engine causes some cars to derail. The coupler hits the engine structure at one of the ladders, and forces the car's truck off the track. I have Dremelled about 1/8" off so far, but more is needed. The other solution is to use one of the cars that does not derail.

I will try to add a picture of the engine in another message.

This is the Lionel BB1 as received:


Here is the engine as it looks now:

I have the BBS without the second sound car, and it runs smooth as silk using my Legacy controller and an old KW for power.

quote:

Originally posted by gunrunnerjohn:
I have the BBS without the second sound car, and it runs smooth as silk using my Legacy controller and an old KW for power.

Was that offered by Lionel? Just the B1 engine without the dummy lookalike?

It's the PARR Ballast Train set, the locomotive is the BB1 with Odyssey. Looks just like yours did stock.

quote:

Originally posted by gunrunnerjohn:
It's the PARR Ballast Train set, the locomotive is the BB1 with Odyssey. Looks just like yours did stock.

OK I looked at the Lionel website. It looks somewhat better than mine did originally: It has the PRR Keystone on the side, Yellow handrails and the red roof.

Sort of like this:

Correct, that's the one.

When I use the BB1 to pull a 4 car passenger set up a moderate ramp, it goes up ok initially, but if I stop the engine 1/2 way up, I can't make it resume, either up nor down. It responds to all the other requests, which tells me it is getting the signal. Is there anything built into its system that acts like this? As if it was overheated due to the strain of pulling the load up the hill. Usually it is cured by complete shutdown to let it rest a few minutes.
The slope rises 6" in 14' or 0.43" per foot. 3.6 percent.
Recent modifications are a wire between front & read sections so it don't stall out over switches, and silicone rubber in place of the tires it was supplied with. Both of these result in improved operation. Wish I knew what to do about this latest problem.

Sounds like something is getting warm, I haven't seen that kind of issue. I haven't pulled any large trains with it, but it handled four passenger cars with no problem.

It is OK on the level, and I just tried it with 2 cars going up the grade without a problem. When it does get stuck, I checked for wheelspin and there was none. Sometimes it sounds like it is trying, and lights dim a bit indicating current flow, but at other times there is no such indication. Any chance there is a clutch inside?

No clutch, it has a DC motor and direct gearing. It sounds like a gear slipping on a shaft or something like that. I have mine up on my test track here, and I started if off slow and then grabbed the last car and held it back. It has a significant amount of pull still available with the four cars, so I'm guessing it would pull these up a pretty decent grade with no problem.

In the array of switches in the dummy unit, there is a "Rail/Signal" switch.

I don't see any mention of it in the instruction book. If I put it in "Signal", none of the Railsounds work.

 

Anybody know what it is for?

Bob

 

  In signal sounds, you should only have bell and horn (whistle).

 

Bill

I just tried it, and that is what happens. No sounds when starting to move nor any shutdown sounds when in the "Signal" position. I just don't see any connection between the words "Rail", "Signal" and the effect the switch has. I guess I don't need to.

My understanding is that 'Signal' means sounds that are signals only. The bell and horn/whistle are signals, in the same way as the horn on your car is used to signal other road users. When the switch is in the 'Rail' position, you get the full set of sound features offered by the RailSounds equipment in your locomotive. 

That makes sense. I should have figured that "Rail" Meant RailSounds.

At various times, I felt that I had the engine working acceptably with the TMCC Command Base, but soon It would fail to operate OK. I tried the three prong outlet for the Base, The ground wire direct from a wall outlet laying along the trouble track, both connected to the track and not. I just do not have control of the engine when it is under the rails of the elevated section. See below.

One thing that seemed to help was setting the "Stall Speed" It was stopping ad lurching until I did that.

Presently I have the Command Base back in its box, and the engine works just fair. All the other engines, back to my 1947 GG1 all work very well thank you.

At one point I had the Command Base laying on a track, and it would not work at all. The system is just too "iffy".

 

 

I wanted a larger version of that picture. Isn't there a way to edit my old post instead of making a new one?

 

To edit your post, click on this icon that appears in the upper left of every message when you hover over upper right.

 

 

Just finished searching for "Antenna" and found other people with poorly operating TMCC engines. Over a year after my last post on this subject, my engine still doesn't work right. I picked up one idea from my search which I will try: Using the pantographs as an outside the cab antenna. We will see what effect that has.

Meanwhile, I am trying to understand just what signals do what.

 

The CAB1 Remote has an antenna which transmits to the PowerMaster. In conventional mode the PowerMaster does not transmit anything to the engine as far as I know. It uses an SCR or TRIAC to modify the sine wave AC going to the track.

 

When you add the Command Base you run the track voltage all the way up with the CAB1, then, after you have entered the ENG 1 command, the round dial on the CAB1 no longer controls the track voltage. It is a mystery to me how this happens.

 

The Command Base tries to control the engine by sending an RF signal directly to the engine through the air. So, when my engine goes under the overhead tracks it goes into what someone called a Faraday Cage, which I guess prevents RF from getting to the engine, so it stops.

 

I have tried placing the Command Base directly on the table where the engine stops, but that does not help. If I am correct in assuming that there is an RF transmitter inside the Command Base, is there a way to attach an external antenna to it to get a stronger signal?

 

One final question, in several of the posts found in my search, people mention "TIU" as if it describes one of the above mentioned gedgets. What is a TIU?

 

The command base connects to the track with a single wire to the outside rails.  Other than the internal antenna that communicates with the CAB1, there is no other antenna in the command base.  Where it's positioned will make no difference in the track signal, but it might affect your ability to connect with the CAB1 remote.  The other part of the radio signal for the TMCC transmission goes via the ground pin of the power supply to the house ground wiring.  This is radiated and received by the antenna in the locomotive and any TMCC accessories.

 

The TIU being mentioned is a component of a totally different command system, the MTH DCS system, and has nothing to do with your issue.

 

Track Interface Unit for DCS. Not needed for TMCC. Odyssey is not a control system, it similar to cruise control providing constant speed even on grades (so they say). Some engined have it and some don't. But for the purpose of this discussion it is irrelevant.

 

A little clarification regarding how the TMCC signal works seems to be in order. The actual signal goes out to the receiver in the locomotive through the rail. In order to complete the circuit, the antenna needs to "see" a source of earth ground. Most of the time this occurs naturally. However, when your track goes through or under metal objects, the earth ground can be blocked.

 

The solution is to find a source of earth ground, and attach it to the metal object that is blocking the signal. You need to make sure that your track is insulated from the metal that you attach the earth ground to.

 

 

This is all so counter-intuitive. As an electrical engineer, I have an understanding of most electronic things, but I've never worked with RF, so it remains a mystery to me.

I know the track is electrically isolated from the house power. We use transformers, not Autotransformers. So it looks like the Command base uses the entire layout as its transmitting antenna. To be effective, an antenna should be a specific length, based on the frequency. I saw the number 900MHz bandied about, so that would like a very short antenna.

 

You have clarified that the CAB1 is not trying to reach the engine directly.

So the problem must be elsewhere.

 

Thanks for the TIU info. It was just adding to my confusion.

 

Problem is, the signal is being blocked by the rails of the elevated section, so I don't think I want to connect that to earth ground.

Maybe string an earth ground connected wire through the "Tunnel" ? I would give that a try.

The "earth ground" insulated wire overhead is the classic solution to multi-level TMCC issues.

See

http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=317

for an in-depth discussion of the TMCC signals.

Thanks to all who helped. Running a wire under the elevated line made a difference. It is wired in to a 3 wire plug, using only the 3rd or ground wire. I made this last year, but tried it under the table where it had no effect.

 

To verify that this change was indeed what worked, I unplugged it. Oddly, there was no change. The engine still worked OK with the wire in place, but the end dangling off the table. Complete removal of the wire brought back the unacceptable operation. It helps to know the intended flow of communication for this system.

All's well that ends well.

 

No, it can only be an antenna if it's connected to the same wire coming from the motherboard.  I can't see where the other wire goes, so it's hard to comment on what it's doing.  I've seen both pantographs connected, maybe that's where it's supposed to be going?

 

Perhaps the 'plate' is a regular antenna panel. This would be needed if someone decided to use the pantographs to supply power, or it could be that the pantographs alone may not be sufficient.  just a thought...  

Nicole, it's a diecast shell, so having an antenna inside is not that useful.

 

Ah!  Good point John.   I didn't have my thinking head on when I wrote that.

Nice to know I'm not the only one that makes comments like this, welcome to my world.