My Hudson Upgraded By Harmon Shops

Who say's 4% grades are too steep!

Looks and sound awesome Mark. Enjoy!

Bob

Definitely a real runner. Looks great!

And once again, after visiting the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad, I can't get over how to captured the essence of railroading in that corner of the country. Nailed it!

Wow, that's an awesome-looking and performing Hudson! Great job, Pat, and really neat layout you've got going, Mark.

FWIW: I had a 4% grade up and down on my previous layout, and much of that grade was on curving tracks, and many engines with traction tires had a challenge pulling 9-10 cars.

WOW! Very nice Mark! Great looking engine and layout!

Mike

Hat's off to Pat!  He's the one that did it all.  Disclaimer: I have the smoke turned off because I don't run smoke in the house.

Really nice Mark. ...but am curious, when then do you run with the smoke on?   :-)

Pat did an excellent job as usual Mark. I like the sound of it working the upward grade.

Gene

Thank you, Bob, Bill, Paul, Mike, Sam, Gene!

Bill, I feel like I am just way too confined in this space to do anything nearly what I would like to make the layout seem like West Virginia.  Your comment encouraged me!

Paul, you are right, I need at least two engines or two two-engine diesels to pull more cars that the 9 or 10 you mentioned.

Sam, good question.  Normally I only run smoke just long enough to make sure it is working after buying an engine or before selling one.  I have setup an oval of track on the patio and run smoke.  However, I haven’t bothered since my layout was completed enough to get a nice run inside.

Gene, the sound is good going up the grade.  None of my other engines quite do that.

Mark great looking steamer, and you have a nice looking layout also! Mark

Mark those 4% grades are nothing for that engine now! Looking good and looks like pat did a great job. He's the best! Great video shoot too, especially like the Atlas bridge in the foreground. Awesome.

Rod

@Mark Boyce posted:

Here is a video of the Hudson pulling a train of 27 cars up and down my 4+% grades.  Yes indeed, it is a stump puller as Pat says.  I'm amazed that one motor can pull all of this.  The upgrade is at about 1:20 into the video.  Hat's off to Pat!  He's the one that did it all.  Disclaimer: I have the smoke turned off because I don't run smoke in the house.

It depends on the motor.   I suspect pat gave it the nice fat Pittman, that will give it the power to twist gears off their axles.

@Mark Boyce now that is a great Hudson. It sounds like it had a couple of cut outs or maybe a slip? Regardless Mark, that Hudson needs to be in passenger revenue service. I understand the issue with the switch, get the section gang on that priority one! @harmonyards, seeing this beastly beauty run those evil dirty hoppers up and down the hill is something else. Imagine how satisfied the paying passengers will be on the gentleman of OGR's layout?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@Mark Boyce now that is a great Hudson. It sounds like it had a couple of cut outs or maybe a slip? Regardless Mark, that Hudson needs to be in passenger revenue service. I understand the issue with the switch, get the section gang on that priority one! @harmonyards, seeing this beastly beauty run those evil dirty hoppers up and down the hill is something else. Imagine how satisfied the paying passengers will be on the gentleman of OGR's layout?

I heard the sound drop outs too, …..I don’t like that either, …..when I test ran the engine on my layout for hours on end, I never once experienced a drop out, or I would’ve never sent it out ….that’s one thing that drives me nutz!…….it ran amazing on my layout,…..here’s a video of how Mark’s smokes, ….it has a wee bitty leak, but the effect is so cool, Mark & I both agreed to leave it, as it’s actually an added feature,…when Mark gets his track work fixed ( I believe he’s got a misbehaving switch or something ) and he runs that locomotive some more, if he’s still got drop outs, I fix it, plain & simple,…..you guys wait long enough for this stuff, so I’ll deliver perfection….

Pat

@Mark Boyce posted:

Pat showed my K-Line Hudson among many others on this thread Hudsons Galore...Tales From Harmon Shops  I received it the middle of last week.  Pat did a great job, including repainting to cover the light weathering the first owner had applied.  You can check the link above to see what he had to say about it, so I will just say it looks, runs, sounds, smokes great.  I tried running it pulling a nice set of Lionel Pulmans I received from forum member @chris a but had trouble with a switch that kept derailing the observation car.  They ran great after I installed LED lighting, so I think the problem is the switch.  I parked them on the back of the upper loop to show them off.

Here is a video of the Hudson pulling a train of 27 cars up and down my 4+% grades.  Yes indeed, it is a stump puller as Pat says.  I'm amazed that one motor can pull all of this.  The upgrade is at about 1:20 into the video.  Hat's off to Pat!  He's the one that did it all.  Disclaimer: I have the smoke turned off because I don't run smoke in the house.

Amazing all the way around…..layout……..engine………upgrade.

another reminder on why K-Line is missed!

  Beautiful✌️

Thank you, Mark, Rod, John, Pat, That Guy!

Dave, you are right about getting the passenger service going.  The cutout must be my track, another crazy problem with track.  That has been an ongoing struggle for me.   Pat had showed me how well it ran at his place.

Thank you for the comments on the layout itself everyone!

I think the most impressive thing is that the drive wheels did not seem to slip under such a load.  Not only a tribute to the strength of the motor but to the weight of the K-Line Hudson.  Great work.  I have one that is ready to be worked on as well.

@harmonyards posted:

I heard the sound drop outs too, …..I don’t like that either, …..when I test ran the engine on my layout for hours on end, I never once experienced a drop out, or I would’ve never sent it out ….that’s one thing that drives me nutz!…….it ran amazing on my layout,…..here’s a video of how Mark’s smokes, ….it has a wee bitty leak, but the effect is so cool, Mark & I both agreed to leave it, as it’s actually an added feature,…when Mark gets his track work fixed ( I believe he’s got a misbehaving switch or something ) and he runs that locomotive some more, if he’s still got drop outs, I fix it, plain & simple,…..you guys wait long enough for this stuff, so I’ll deliver perfection….

Pat

Pat, that is pretty cool. About the drop cut out, what would cause that on the track? I know as well as any that dirty track is typically one of the easiest culprits that may be overlooked. I am not saying Mark's track is dirty, curious as to what else could there be. I know wiring the common track together helps with keeping potential other problems at bay, longer pick ups(but that shouldn't be an issue with this engine), wiring around certain switches can contribute some time too. What do you think could be another possible problem as a guess?

Dave, My layout is wired for DCS with a TMCC base connected.  Everything with an ERR engine should run fine regardless.  I do have a diesel that I purchased from someone who added ERR, and I am not completely happy with how it runs either.  All that said, I am going to setup a test track with just the TMCC base and power connected and see how that works out.

Duncan, I was impressed that there was no slipping either.  I actually had added a 28th car and though it didn't slip either, I thought it was getting to the limit.  Also, none of the cars I chose to run are lightweights.  I did not put any of the light Lionel or Menards cars on this train.  I was really watching how the engine pulled more than paying attention to the sound.  With my small layout, there were periods of time where the front of the train was going up and the tail going down and vice versa.  That was something I had never experienced on this layout before.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Pat, that is pretty cool. About the drop cut out, what would cause that on the track? I know as well as any that dirty track is typically one of the easiest culprits that may be overlooked. I am not saying Mark's track is dirty, curious as to what else could there be. I know wiring the common track together helps with keeping potential other problems at bay, longer pick ups(but that shouldn't be an issue with this engine), wiring around certain switches can contribute some time too. What do you think could be another possible problem as a guess?

These are the top suspects, and in no way affiliated with Mark’s layout, as I don’t know how his his layout is built ….

1. dirty track  
2. signal issues    
3. poor grounds.    
4. voltage drop  
5. something in the engine

after I seen the video that Mark shared, I contacted him, and told him if he continues to have drop outs when he tests it on an oval of track, isolated from his layout, to contact me, and we’ll sort it out,….it’s part of the customer service plan here …..as you know, I stay with what I built ….😉

Pat

I can have any of those issues or more than one.  I haven’t had a chance to check the engine on an isolated loop of track yet!  I’m just sorry I didn’t work through all this with you, Pat, before posting the video here! 🤦‍♂️ My sincere apologies!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

I can have any of those issues or more than one.  I haven’t had a chance to check the engine on an isolated loop of track yet!  I’m just sorry I didn’t work through all this with you, Pat, before posting the video here! 🤦‍♂️ My sincere apologies!!

World ain’t perfect buddy, ….but for sure, we’ll get through it together……whatever the problem is, we’ll find it, and fix it,…no worries on my end,…..

Pat    

Doesn't the Kline have rollers on tender too?  I assume the tender and engine AC are connected via tether.  Engine lights and motion never flickered.  Is a battery installed?  I thought some of the Lionel stuff would get that pause in the RS.  Maybe the older RS stuff.  G

@Mark Boyce Wow, you have a really nice layout! You really got a lot of action packed in what appears to be a small space. I had the same church when I inherited my Uncle's trains as a kid.  I really like that brick structure which is to the left of the upper lift bridge. Looks scratch built. It is really cool! A question: I noticed on your lift bridges you have what looks like a thick plastic under them. I was just wondering what that was and what is it's purpose?

Another great job by Pat (Harmon Yards)!

Good luck figuring out what is causing the cut outs. lol, I watched the video twice and I didn't even notice it.

@GGG posted:

Doesn't the Kline have rollers on tender too?  I assume the tender and engine AC are connected via tether.  Engine lights and motion never flickered.  Is a battery installed?  I thought some of the Lionel stuff would get that pause in the RS.  Maybe the older RS stuff.  G

The Kline has pick ups on the tender. They are tied to the rollers on the engine…..Need to determine whether it’s all sounds drop out of just chuff. That’ll tell the story,……if it’s chuff only, could be signal issue ( track ) or sensor issue ( engine ) ….I’ve seen signal issues interrupt chuff, but also seen sensor gap cause a missed chuff. Another clue would be to run smoke. Chuff is generated by John’s super chuffer, and generator. If the puff of smoke misses with the missed chuff, more than likely a sensor issue ( possibly gap ) If smoke still puffs at 4 times in a revolution, but still miss chuffs, then that would lead to a signal issue….or could be tether too,….chuff in for RS is in the tender, and transmitted via tether….

Pat

I am confused by signal issue.  What signal in TMCC tells the engine not to chuff?  Engine and all lighting seemed fine as it moved around layout and no disruption or flicker.  So Track power does not seem to be the issue.  I thought this was part of the reason for using a battery.  Clearly for conventional ops but also this type of RS glitch.  Maybe I got it wrong, but the changing in load and speed of the engine as it handles the rises and falls might have the RS missing a chuff as it calculates the data.  Maybe it is also related to track conditions where the board see different voltage falls and rises and again the RS misses a beat in calculating a chuff.  But I see that happen randomly to my TMCC RS factory engines.   G

@GGG posted:

I am confused by signal issue.  What signal in TMCC tells the engine not to chuff?  Engine and all lighting seemed fine as it moved around layout and no disruption or flicker.  So Track power does not seem to be the issue.  I thought this was part of the reason for using a battery.  Clearly for conventional ops but also this type of RS glitch.  Maybe I got it wrong, but the changing in load and speed of the engine as it handles the rises and falls might have the RS missing a chuff as it calculates the data.  Maybe it is also related to track conditions where the board see different voltage falls and rises and again the RS misses a beat in calculating a chuff.  But I see that happen randomly to my TMCC RS factory engines.   G

That could be the case as well George…..a fluctuation in voltages could cause the RS to stumble …especially anything stream related…..

Pat

@GGG posted:

I am confused by signal issue.  What signal in TMCC tells the engine not to chuff?  Engine and all lighting seemed fine as it moved around layout and no disruption or flicker.  So Track power does not seem to be the issue.  I thought this was part of the reason for using a battery.  Clearly for conventional ops but also this type of RS glitch.  Maybe I got it wrong, but the changing in load and speed of the engine as it handles the rises and falls might have the RS missing a chuff as it calculates the data.  Maybe it is also related to track conditions where the board see different voltage falls and rises and again the RS misses a beat in calculating a chuff.  But I see that happen randomly to my TMCC RS factory engines.   G

Chuff in this case is generated when the chuff in pin (17) on the R2LC is shorted to ground. Its open collector so stays at 5v until a contact closure. You will miss chuffs if pin 17 is not tied to ground or stays at ground in the allotted time which could happen if a micro switch or whatever does not open.

Pat will have to detail what he is using for a chuff switch whether mechanical as Lionel does it or optical as some others do it.

Pete

I am going to take the Christmas layout outside and put it on the patio table.  Then I will connect power and the TMCC base to the single loop of track and run it with smoke on and see what happens.  I don’t think I will get to it until tomorrow or the next day though.  Thank you everyone for all the ideas!!!

@Hudson J1e posted:

@Mark Boyce Wow, you have a really nice layout! You really got a lot of action packed in what appears to be a small space. I had the same church when I inherited my Uncle's trains as a kid.  I really like that brick structure which is to the left of the upper lift bridge. Looks scratch built. It is really cool! A question: I noticed on your lift bridges you have what looks like a thick plastic under them. I was just wondering what that was and what is it's purpose?

Another great job by Pat (Harmon Yards)!

Good luck figuring out what is causing the cut outs. lol, I watched the video twice and I didn't even notice it.

Thank you, Phil!  The layout is 11x8.  The building to the left of the bridge is a Dennis Brennan Frank Ellison Series Sanky Wanky Coffee Company kit that is almost as he designed it.  I scratch built some interior and lighting.    The lift up bridges have plexiglass frames that forum member Mike g. Cut and sent to me.  They are overkill, but the idea was I needed something to keep the Atlas 40” double track truss bridge from flexing diagonally when lifting.  They also gave a strong place to secure a plywood section to mount the top of the linear actuator to.  Mike used the concept on his layout, and So far it has all worked well for me.

@Norton posted:

Chuff in this case is generated when the chuff in pin (17) on the R2LC is shorted to ground. Its open collector so stays at 5v until a contact closure. You will miss chuffs if pin 17 is not tied to ground or stays at ground in the allotted time which could happen if a micro switch or whatever does not open.

Pat will have to detail what he is using for a chuff switch whether mechanical as Lionel does it or optical as some others do it.

Pete

I thought Brian said he is using Johns Chuff generator.  So it is a tach reader.  Regardless I see this happen to some of my RS4 TMCC engine that are factory.  And use a chuff switch.  The chuff just pauses and then picks up.  G

I'm going to reply quickly that I setup the Christmas board outside and ran the Hudson with both smoke off and smoke on for quite some time.  In either case, the chuff never cutout even once.  So, the problem is with my layout and not Pat's work.  The engine is fine.  Hooray!  I'll post one or more videos later after they are uploaded.  Thank you everyone for all the great ideas.  I'm sorry I didn't resolve this ahead of showing the video here on the forum.  Great job, Pat!!!!

Also, I tried putting my passenger cars on the track, but they nee 054 curves to not bind and pull the wheels off the rails.  No go on the 048 curve with an 036 section at each end to fit on a 4-foot wide board.

Nothing to apologize for, Mark.  I'd say at least 75% of our layouts have at least one voltage drop in them....somewhere.

Beautiful Hudson, excellent work by Pat, and very nice layout you've got there!

Agree with Berkshire President Mark, ……absolutely nothing to be sorry about, …..part of the juice of this hobby is problem solving,……if we had an issue with the engine, we would sort it out…..😁😁😁

Pat

Agreed, definitely nothing to apologize for from the gentleman of the OGR Forum(Pat words it far better).

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Agreed, definitely nothing to apologize for from the gentleman of the OGR Forum(Pat words it far better).

Truly he’s the Gentleman O gauger,….and I didn’t coin that, …@jeffthecoasterguy did

unlike the rest of us OGR thugs, ….Mark is in an exceptional league.

Pat

Thank you folks. 😊

So on a realistic large layout with grades and some deviation in track voltage this is a normal RS issue right?  Does putting a battery in the tender resolve it?  G

@GGG posted:

So on a realistic large layout with grades and some deviation in track voltage this is a normal RS issue right?  Does putting a battery in the tender resolve it?  G

Only if it’s a total sound drop out George. If it’s only sounds delivered by serial data, then no, a battery won’t alleviate the symptoms. The signal has to be dealt with on the layout.

Pat

What track signal Pat?  Once you have commanded a TMCC engine and now it is just running around the layout there is no signal being sent to the engine and the RS chuff is not an external signal it is an internal signal between the R2LC and the RS board or from the chuff switch or tach in this case no?  G

@GGG posted:

What track signal Pat?  Once you have commanded a TMCC engine and now it is just running around the layout there is no signal being sent to the engine and the RS chuff is not an external signal it is an internal signal between the R2LC and the RS board or from the chuff switch or tach in this case no?  G

In command, the data stream relies on the TMCC signal to deliver the sounds that ride on it. So anything that rides on data can be affected by an interrupted signal. This would include the whistle, the bell, any crew talk activated remotely, and chuff that rides on the data stream.

Pat