N&W 611 test run successful

What is the locomotive with the b unit?

Al

Clinchfield R.R. #1.  I believe it resides at the B&O museum now.

Rusty

Well you can call it whatever YOU prefer, especially since you have never operated a steam locomotive over great distances where a diesel may be required for assistance on steep ascending grades, or dynamic brake assistance on defending grades. When the air brake system on the steam locomotive is "MU'ed" with trailing diesels, and the Engineer of the steam locomotive has control of the trailing diesel, through the "MU Jumper Cable/Cables", those of us in this business refer to the concept as "MU'ing the trailing diesels with the leading steam locomotive". 

Sorry if you are offended.

Indeed, in the roundhouse at the B&O. Cab is open to "play" and can move controls, etc. Tender still has multiple MU plugs/receptacles on the rear. MU box is still on the cab roof on engineer side.

When set up to run a diesel (or several diesels) with the "MU Box" from the cab of a steam locomotive, the steam locomotive engineer has control of the diesel's direction, throttle position, generator field switch, sanders, PC Switch, Engine Run switch and all the air brake functions.

Sounds like "Multiple Unit Operation" to me.

The steam engineer does have control over these functions, but it is not the same as an all Diesel consist...and it never will be  ( I should never say never!)  You might as well try to "MU" a Piper Cub with a Boeing 747 !   Or run a GE FLD 16 on coal slurry in a U Boat !    ....Not offended in the least!

OK...

Rich,
I recognize all of those functions except the "PC Switch".
What is the PC Switch and what is its function?

The "PC Switch", is the "Pneumatic Control Switch", and functions to reduce/drop the load on the diesels in the event of an emergency brake occurrence. Some railroads have a time delay built into the PC Switch, so that in the event of a train break-intwo, the locomotives keep loading for so many seconds in order to stay ahead of the train, lest they stop shorter/quicker than the heavier portion of the train behind them.

the "PC Switch" concept goes back more than 70 years in diesel units.

  Sorry for asking and you having to explain Hot Water what the box does. I was just looking for a simple yes/no.

I think what jaygee is referring to, is that when you open the throttle on the steam engine, it doesn't automatically control the throttle in the diesel, or when you put the sanders on in the steam loco cab, you don't automatically sand the diesels... comes down to nitpicking and splitting hairs..

Yes, it sure does...big time.

This post makes me wish I also modeled N&W so I could get a 611 that is coming out this year.  The pics make me realize just how large this engine is in real life.  It looks to be about 15 feet tall (minimum).  How large are the drivers?  About 6 feet?

70" driver diameter, 16' 2" high.

In short, a 4-8-4 so outrageous, that only N&W could own it, and perhaps more importantly....operate it !    As for the Penn, and their locomotive designs, stop and look where the major design base prototypes came from.   Case in point....H8 Consolly; from an Alco demonstrator.  K4s Pacific, from an Alco demonstrator (K29)   First PRR Pacifics, from Alco demonstrator, (K28).  GG1, from NH EP3 FlatIron.  T1, From Baldwin demos 6110 & 6111. And of course, their all time best steamer...J1 from Lima/ AMC and the C&O; and a huge embarrassment to many in Philly...even after the steam era !  Penn had original designs, but as many as you might think. 

Was SP 4449 as AFT 4449 one of the first steamers with the MU box?

No. Clinchfield #1 was technically the first steam locomotive to be able to give the Engineer SOME control of the trailing "B" unit. The EMD Southwester Regional Office, Jacksonville, FL, assisted the Clinchfield Mechanical Dept. with the installation of a "B" unit Hostler controller, mounted on the inside of the cab ceiling of the "1 Spot".

However, AFT 4449 was the first steam locomotive application of the EMD designed and manufactured Diesel MU Control Box, including modifications to the 8ET air brake system for total MU control of the air brakes on trailing diesel units. 

OOOHHHHH, NOOOOO !!!  I stand corrected !   What a dummy!  Of course you can MU steam...it was happening right under my nose all along.   Yup, GE, no less....back in 1938!   STEs #1 & 2 had electric drives, but were otherwise steam in every sense of the word.   And the two had MU both nose and stern.  Operated for about six months on Uncle Pete, and longer on Great Northern. Retired in late'43 after a mechanical failure.   So, I hang my head in shame ....and will climb back under my rock.....but only long enough to get to the store and pick up some Coffee Ice Cream !  Huzzah !

Rode behind "One Spot" twice.  The CRR sure was a sweet trip.  I cannot remember the engineer's name but his fireman was his brother.  Thanks to my good looking wife we both got personalized tours of the cab of One Spot and the F unit on the non-steam portion of the ride!

Larry

You could get one and claim that it's on loan for testing purposes...  Yes the J's were indeed a racehorse and a army mule all in one. 

Remember that the much of the successfulness of the J, A, and Y-6 were from the lessons learned from the K-3, Z-2, and Y-5 (as originally built).

Stuart

There are some more photos from the Fireup611 FB page.  Progressing along nicely.  They have all the lagging off and 1 of the compressors removed...check it out.

If I had a teapot designed in Roanoke ...it would make better tea !   Thanks 4 the photos, everybody !

I have to say that at the rate they are moving I don't think it will even take 9 months unless something unforeseen pops up.

I know it would have not been practical, or necessary, but it would have been neat to see the results of a hydro test on 611 before they took it apart..

The backhead has been completely stripped, all jacketing and lagging have been removed along with the fireman's side skirting. 

When I see rust on steam engine sections, I wonder how much of the boiler material, etc. is lost over the years. I would suppose at some time in the distant future these components might become too thin to pass inspection, but I don't know. Maybe it's insignificant. 

I read that the U-Boat, U-505, that's in the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry is actually just a bit smaller than it originally was, having had several inches of its hull thickness gradually come off over the years and additionally sluff off when they were cleaning it before moving it into its new home inside the museum several years ago. This due to the deterioration suffered in all the years when it was on display outdoors.

 No expert here,but I think the difference between a steamer and a U-Boat would be the fact the U-Boat was exposed to sea water 

Apparently the exposure that caused the deterioration was incurred during the years after the boat was out of the water and on display outdoors on land at the museum.

(While salt water obviously does cause rust, fresh water does also, although at a different rate. The boat was brought to Chicago via fresh water, up the Mississippi and the Illinois River. It then sat out in the elements, rain, snow, sleet, etc. for many decades before being moving inside.)

With both old steam locomotives and U-Boats, realize we are trying to preserve machinery a bit unnaturally.

Both were designed by people who knew they would be somewhat high maintenance even when knew, and just accepted that as the cost of doing business, and by people who did not give a great regard to really long life - over 30 years.  In particular the U-boats were designed at a time when the official line was the war would be over in a few years, knowing there would be lots of young sailors to scrape and sand and prime and paint, etc., and papers from the Nazi era indicate Donitz and his staff knew that a 50% duty cycle (half the time at sea, half in the pens being worked on/replenished) was about the best he could possibly hope for.  

If the designers of the U-Boat even gave a passing thought to "where will this boat be in 75 years?" their list of answers was probably have to "sunk", "rusting away in some scrap yard,"  or "melted down to make newer, better designs."  The designers of 611 probably realized it was an iconic design that might very well go down in history as a great one, but I doubt they gave much thought, either, to doing anything to help out the poorer restorer trying to keep it alive 75 years later. 

Thin metal on the boiler can be dealt with, it happens all the time in steam locomotive preservation.  Best case, remove and replace the thin section.  Worst case, have a new boiler built.

As far as the U-505 goes, there's no expectation to return her to service and her relocation inside several years ago should well preserve the remaining boat.

Rusty

They are currently preparing her for sandblasting, the 611 is just fine.  The U-505 exhibit is something to see.  I remember when it was kept outside, that is where I first saw it when I was a kid, now with it indoors it is much more accessible and protected from the elements.

Actually, the U-505 was brought through the Great Lakes.

Santa Fe Northern 2903 sat outside next to the U-505 for many years, there's still plenty of metal on her boiler.

Rusty

This brings up the point of PRR steamers from the classic era.  They were NEVER designed to last eighty plus years, and certainly not in service.  It was accepted fact that any design would eventually be replaced by something better, and if regulations changed in the years following, that would be the time to deal with those issues.  So we have to accept that PRR designs from a century ago ...more or less, will require some "re-engineering"  The Pocahontas steam designs from the '30s and '50s  begin to reflect some changes in thinking, among other things.  Steam power had pretty much gotten as "big" as it was going to get....and changes were now moving towards refinement and product improvement, as much as anything else.  You'd expect these machines to be superior to most older types with regards to restoration suitability ....and they are. Same can be said for most of the modern steam designs.  I'd expect 611 to be around for quite a spell, with proper program management.

we'll never know, but I wonder if a PRR J Class would have the same problems as the Belpaire types?

I'm curious about what "problems as the Belpaire types" means?  I didn't know that PRR Belpaire firebox boilers had problems.

I hope we can stick to 611 and N&W J's  on this thread.  Please start a new one if you want to address PRR power.

Living in Northern Virginia I saw and rode behind 611 many times.  If we weren't riding behind her I'd take my children and video camera to one of the grade level crossings near Burke VA to catch the weekend morning runs to Charlottesville or Front Royal.  In the evening we'd go down to the Southern's former yard in Alexandria and the friendly crew would sometimes invite my young son up to the cab.  My last fantrip behind 611 was from from Roanoke to Pulaski and back.   O Winston Link was on board.  The combination of the finest steam passenger locomotive and the master of night railroad photography is hard to beat.   Each Christmas Eve with the family around I play a CD with Mr. Link's audio track of a J arriving and departing the station in Rural Retreat, VA while a nearby  church carillon plays Christmas carols.  Even my wife and in-laws love that recording. 

Looking forward to many new 611 memories next year.  You think 765 put on a show last year - how about 611 on Horseshoe Curve! 

Ed Rappe

Will an N&W J Class fit on the old PRR in that territory?