Check out this radio interview with outgoing director Bev Fitzpatrick:
https://wfirnews.com/local-new...n-for-611-excursions
Apparently same is true for 765 excursions as well.
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Sad news 
Even though this is a very recent interview, the "news" itself is pretty old. NS management already told the VMT that they, NS would not host any steam excursions in the future (the 765 group was informed of that about a year ago). There has since been a number of stories that NS will not even allow steam operations under the Amtrak insurance umbrella.
Guess we'll all have to wait until next year, and see what REALLY happens.
Just like everything else, everyone is afraid of a lawsuit.
I am longing for the old Southern Steam program trips which my family rode between the years 1974-1994 and where excursion trains could run at relatively safe but faster speeds! At least I have the memories of a diverse fielding of steam engines! The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, were, and still are, my heroes! :-)
I remember chasing 611 after her restoration in 1982 on a test run from Birmingham, AL to Chattanooga, TN. Bill Purdie, then Master Mechanic, Steam was at the throttle and we chased her from Attalla, AL to Chattanooga, TN. We were able to pace the 611 for a good part of the way, often parallel to the engine which was running at least 60 mph or better! I have fond memories of having met both Graham Claytor and his brother Robert on several occasions, and both were genuine steam enthusiasts! Robert was often at the throttle of the 611 on excursion trips, along with his son, Preston, who did the firing.
The auctioning off of five of the NS excursion coaches last summer should have been a sign that NS is ending support of any steam excursions. Now, VMT has to work with Amtrak and also have NS’s permission to use their tracks. I read that NS won’t even allow 611 to run under Amtrak’s umbrella which would essentially ban all mainline excursions with 611. Hope that isn’t true. Also the article says that 611 can’t run on its own anymore which probably means it must have a diesel behind it for every run on NS from now on. If they are able to run with Amtrak, we’ll probably see an Amtrak diesel unit behind the 611 and perhaps Amfleets to make up for the missing NS coaches. But it does seem that steam on NS otherwise is over. 21st Century Steam was only intended to last through 2015, and NS gave VMT two additional years of excursions. I guess we have to realize that steam excursions on class 1 railroads are a big liability and that publicity traded railroads have to please shareholders by moving freight and making a profit. Steam excursions don’t make a profit. They cost money. But why is there an article out there that says NS approved more 611 excursions for 2018? Did they change their mind since then?
Robert K posted:But why is there an article out there that says NS approved more 611 excursions for 2018? Did they change their mind since then?
To what article are you referring?
This http://www.wdbj7.com/content/n...-2018-425564914.html But article is from May 31, 2017. Maybe NS changed their mind since then. Then there was an article about that VMT wanted to take 611 to more places and work with Amtrak.
Robert K posted:This http://www.wdbj7.com/content/n...-2018-425564914.html But article is from May 31, 2017. Maybe NS changed their mind since then. Then there was an article about that VMT wanted to take 611 to more places and work with Amtrak.
The article, such as it is is pretty vague.
Until NS announces they will allow Amtrak run steam excursions, it's likely any such excursions will take place on tracks other then NS.
NS will currently allow steam ferry moves, however.
Rusty
As they say...It is what it is.
Why is NS ending support for steam excursions? Is it because they are a business and have freight to move and stockholders to please like everyone says? The fact that Wick is no longer in charge? I guess mainline steam in the east is over again. The steam nuts will have to go to Denver, CO (UP 844 excursion) or Reading/Port Clinton/Jim Thorpe (425) this year. Of course, 611 will be able to use NS to get somewhere without running excursions unless NS approves 611 excursions with Amtrak. Are there any non NS railroads in Virginia that 611 could run on? Buckingham Branch? But, if the only way there is on CSX forget it. The 611 could go to RBMN and Steamtown to run excursions and use NS to get there. Same with 765. 765 could run on RBMN and Delaware Lackawanna again and not have to touch NS with passengers on board. Example: 765 could run from Jim Thorpe to Pittston and back without touching NS but use NS for deadhead moves. Maybe 765 could have open window coaches on the train if they work with RBMN and Steamtown and “borrow” a few of their coaches.
Robert K posted:Why is NS ending support for steam excursions? Is it because they are a business and have freight to move and stockholders to please like everyone says?
Uh.....YEA! NS isn't in business to run steam trains that lose money. Kind of common sense I would think, but then again, common sense isn't always common!
It seems as if steam in the eat runs in cycles. Coal traffic is down. I think NS would be hit by stockholders and the media in a negative way. Not the kind of PR a company wants.
Plus, do not expect much steam in the west as UP is trying to get UPP 4014 to run!
rats..missed my chance for a ride when someone offered me tickets just a few years ago! I guess the Western Maryland is the next best thing.
and don't hold your breath on steam there anytime soon.
Steamer posted:and don't hold your breath on steam there anytime soon.
I am so upset about that whole situation. 🙁
J 611 posted:Steamer posted:and don't hold your breath on steam there anytime soon.
I am so upset about that whole situation. 🙁
Everything goes in circles. Do it while you can. There is no guarantee of it being there tomorrow....and that goes for life in general, not just trains.
redjimmy1955 posted:rats..missed my chance for a ride when someone offered me tickets just a few years ago! I guess the Western Maryland is the next best thing.
Go 60 miles north of Cumberland,MD. to Hollidaysburg,PA. and experience the Everett RR and 2-6-0 #11, you won't be sorry as this is a class outfit.
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Dominic Mazoch posted:It seems as if steam in the eat runs in cycles. Coal traffic is down. I think NS would be hit by stockholders and the media in a negative way. Not the kind of PR a company wants.
Plus, do not expect much steam in the west as UP is trying to get UPP 4014 to run!
Coal traffic is down but the stock is doing very well.
Steve
GLAD I rode behind the '82 restoration of 611 when I had the opportunities. My last trip behind her was a Charlotte, NC to Ashville, NC excursion on October 31, 1993. NS pulled the plug in 1994.
Liked the whistle on the '82 restoration better than the current one.
I think VMT knew that they would only have a few years at best to run excursions with NS. That’s why they pushed to get 611 done. If NS allows 611 excursions in the future they will have to be Amtrak trains. Is 611 Amtrak certified? But there’s still the problem of NS if they will even allow 611 excursions at all, even if VMT works with Amtrak and Amtrak pays for insurance. It’s the matter of if NS is willing to accommodate 611 excursions on its busy railroad or be liable for the general public on their property. We should be glad that NS gave us at least 6 years of steam excursions. I see why VMT has Amtrak trips minus 611 listed for the spring. Because maybe NS, Amtrak and VMT couldn’t come to an agreement for 611 excursions this spring. It’s NS that’s being stubborn. It’s their railroad and they reserve the right to say no. I fear that NS might be becoming like CSX, or like how they were in 1995 and up when they didn’t allow steam excursions at all. The auctioning of five of the excursion coaches last summer should have been a clue that NS was going to no longer host steam excursions after spring 2017.
As someone mentioned above, these programs tend to be cyclic.
"Never say never"! 
It’s still possible 611 could run more excursions IF NS says yes to VMT working with Amtrak. If that would work we might see 611 going to more places on NS because VMT feels that doing Virginia again after 3 years of the same routes would result in lower ticket sales because most people already rode the excursions.
Been following this thread and thought I would share a photo and video of when she came home from Spencer. I meet a lady there who was also waiting and took a photo of the shirt she was wearing and before any remarks read the shirt. It was her father. The video was to big to post here so check out the link. https://www.facebook.com/rick.thomas.733450
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Well, there has to be something in it for NS for them to allow 611 excursions. If excursions are just going to cost them money and tie up their railroad and crews, then they might just say no. Plus there’s the lawsuit issue if a passenger or bystander gets hurt while on NS property. Ferry moves carry less risk to NS because there aren’t any passengers on board and schedules usually aren’t announced to minimize foamers by the tracks. I’m glad I rode behind 611 from Manassas because who knows if it will happen again. All of the other 611 excursions were much farther for us. We live near Allentown, PA and I rode the 765 excursion from near Bethlehem to Pittston and back over NS and RBMN. And Horseshoe Curve. I rode 3 NS excursions total. I believe NS will still allow special excursions such as the Amtrak Autumn Express though and this May the PRR E8’s pull an excursion from Philly to Altoona with a ride over the curve.
Robert K posted:Well, there has to be something in it for NS for them to allow 611 excursions. If excursions are just going to cost them money and tie up their railroad and crews, then they might just say no.
When will you open your eyes and FINALLY acknowledge the fact that NS management has already said NO???????? PERIOD! Excursions are OVER!
Plus there’s the lawsuit issue if a passenger or bystander gets hurt while on NS property. Ferry moves carry less risk to NS because there aren’t any passengers on board and schedules usually aren’t announced to minimize foamers by the tracks. I’m glad I rode behind 611 from Manassas because who knows if it will happen again. All of the other 611 excursions were much farther for us. We live near Allentown, PA and I rode the 765 excursion from near Bethlehem to Pittston and back over NS and RBMN. And Horseshoe Curve. I rode 3 NS excursions total. I believe NS will still allow special excursions such as the Amtrak Autumn Express though and this May the PRR E8’s pull an excursion from Philly to Altoona with a ride over the curve.
Ok, so it’s over. This steam program was even shorter than 611’s first excursion career from Sept 1982 to Dec 1994. I knew that it would last under a decade. This one lasted from Sept 2011 to May 2017. 21st Century Steam technically ended Dec 2015 but they gave 611 two additional years. But where will 611 run now? Will it be stuck pulling short rides at Spencer? So NS won’t allow any 611 excursions anymore even with Amtrak? Doesn’t really matter to me, I have 425 and soon to be 2102 close to me. RBMN doesn’t mind running excursions for the public, they’ve been doing it since 1985. Plus they have open window coaches and open air cars. To be honest the 765 and 611 excursions sucked because NS didn’t allow open windows or vestibules. Let the big railroads worry about hauling freight and let the little guys haul tourists on their own tracks. Oh, NS will probably still allow other special excursions such as Amtrak specials and other diesel powered ones like the upcoming E8 excursion to Altoona from Philly. Perhaps that is being operated as an Amtrak trip.
Robert K posted:611 excursions sucked because NS didn’t allow open windows or vestibules.
Unfortunately expensive insurance policies and over litigious Americans didn’t allow for open windows or vestibules on the 21st century iteration of Norfolk Southerns steam program. I dontated to FireUp611 and I am happy to see the locomotive run again and had several opportunities to see her do so. The ONLY reason I did not ride any of the excursions was the no open window policy. I don’t see the point to shell out big money to sit in a steel tube where I can’t even hear or see the locomotive. Unfortunately that’s just the way it had to be.
Tinplate Art posted:I am longing for the old Southern Steam program trips which my family rode between the years 1974-1994 and where excursion trains could run at relatively safe but faster speeds! At least I have the memories of a diverse fielding of steam engines! The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, were, and still are, my heroes! :-)
I'm so glad I lived in Charlotte and had access to MANY steam train trips. (and SRR Crescent) There is NO substitute for a large steam loco running 60+ mph....you understand Iron Horse real fast.
Oh well.....at least I now live near Cass RR and the other roads in my area......just it ain't mainline steam at speed!!
AMCDave posted:Tinplate Art posted:I am longing for the old Southern Steam program trips which my family rode between the years 1974-1994 and where excursion trains could run at relatively safe but faster speeds! At least I have the memories of a diverse fielding of steam engines! The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, were, and still are, my heroes! :-)
There is NO substitute for a large steam loco running 60+ mph....you understand Iron Horse real fast.
Best train trip I've ever been on, hands down, was the SP 4449 trip from Portland to Bend last year. Fast running (near 80MPH in spots), open windows/doors, beautiful scenery and a beautiful train. I've wanted to see the 4449 for decades and flew west to ride it last year. If there is another trip planned for 2018, I will fly west again if I can.
Rode a couple of the NS trips and would not really be interested in doing a similar trip again.
SJC posted:Best train trip I've ever been on, hands down, was the SP 4449 trip from Portland to Bend last year. Fast running (near 80MPH in spots),
Not quite! We never went over 65 MPH.
open windows/doors,
Only at the vestibules and the baggage/souvenir car. None of the cars had windows that would open.
beautiful scenery and a beautiful train. I've wanted to see the 4449 for decades and flew west to ride it last year. If there is another trip planned for 2018, I will fly west again if I can.
Rode a couple of the NS trips and would not really be interested in doing a similar trip again.
J 611 posted:Robert K posted:611 excursions sucked because NS didn’t allow open windows or vestibules.
Unfortunately expensive insurance policies and over litigious Americans didn’t allow for open windows or vestibules on the 21st century iteration of Norfolk Southerns steam program. I dontated to FireUp611 and I am happy to see the locomotive run again and had several opportunities to see her do so. The ONLY reason I did not ride any of the excursions was the no open window policy. I don’t see the point to shell out big money to sit in a steel tube where I can’t even hear or see the locomotive. Unfortunately that’s just the way it had to be.
While I would agree about the coaches in general, I was 2 coaches back from the engine on a Manassas-Front Royal trip and got to see and hear plenty on that line's curves and grades, even through the window. I would also say that riding in the dome car Stampede Pass up Christiansburg Grade in the rain was pretty thrilling, in fact I would gladly do that again.
At the same time, I do get the appeal of open windows/vestibules, I rode the vestibule of Stampede Pass up the east slope of the Poconos in Sept.2015 when #765 visited Steamtown.
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Why did Steamtown allow the vestibules open but not on the Bethlehem-Pittston excursion? Because that was operating partly on NS and Steamtown was not NS? I wonder since NS will still allow 765 to deadhead, could 765 return to Steamtown and maybe RBMN again? I’m sure they would sell lots of tickets on both railroads. RBMN could be Reading to Jim Thorpe or Jim Thorpe to Pittston. I saw on videos that the crew had the center door and small windows open while the train was moving. And the guy in white on the Dover Harbor he was standing at the rear vestibule with the top part of the door open. Were they allowed to do that?
Robert K posted:Why did Steamtown allow the vestibules open but not on the Bethlehem-Pittston excursion? Because that was operating partly on NS and Steamtown was not NS? I wonder since NS will still allow 765 to deadhead, could 765 return to Steamtown and maybe RBMN again? I’m sure they would sell lots of tickets on both railroads. RBMN could be Reading to Jim Thorpe or Jim Thorpe to Pittston. I saw on videos that the crew had the center door and small windows open while the train was moving. And the guy in white on the Dover Harbor he was standing at the rear vestibule with the top part of the door open. Were they allowed to do that?
I think the deadhead move takes 2 or 3 days, so that's one reason 765 is not likely to go that far East of New Haven, IN. Think about the huge pile of cash that move would take before it pulled an excursion. Then, the trip home. Never say never, but not very likely.
Remember when 261 went to Steamtown? That came from Minneapolis, Minnesota. It took a few days to get to Scranton.
Robert K posted:Remember when 261 went to Steamtown? That came from Minneapolis, Minnesota. It took a few days to get to Scranton.
And who paid for THAT?
Hey Borden Tunnel! In the midst of "smarty a## remarks".... I thank you for that bona fide useful info. I WILL take that train ride when available. Might ask SideRod and the guys if they wanna join in for " A ROAD TRIP"!
Robert K posted:...Could 765 return to Steamtown and maybe RBMN again? I’m sure they would sell lots of tickets on both railroads....
Robert, you have asked this question before and it has been answered before!
It takes 6 DAYS OF DEADHEADING to move the 765 from Fort Wayne to Scranton, PA and back home.
- 6 days of coal expense
- 6 days of crew lodging and meal expenses
- 6 days of railroad charges
- 6 days and over 1,000 miles on the engine
The total cost for all that deadheading would reach 6-figures. WHO PAYS FOR THAT? You would NEVER generate enough ticket revenue at Steamtown to cover those costs, let alone make a profit . Running a steam locomotive is a business, you know.
As for going back to the RBM&N, that’s not going to happen, either.
OK, Rich I have to ask, what did the RB&N do to give you heartburn " As for going back to the RBM&N, that’s not going to happen, either." I thought it to be a neat railroad.
John
