Need help to power mountain layout

I'm confused. First of all, a 78" radius means you have a mountain 13 feet in diameter. Is that correct? Or do you have a 78" diameter? Also, if each level is 9" high, and it sounds like you're going twice around, then you're going up 18", not the 36" you say the mountain is.

More importantly, whats the radius and/or length of track in each revolution? It sounds to me like its too steep to climb.

You can try feeding a set of wires to several places on the way up, but no amount of electrical power is going to defeat the effects of gravity.

How many power feeds do you have? Off the top of my head, you may want a feeder per 360 degree section. Assuming a 9" rise, quick math puts the grade at around 4%.

Gilly

JimJ here:  Sorry Boilermaker1 for my mistake...the Structure Diameter is 78". Picturing a clock's face, looking square on to the mountain, the first 9" rise is at 3 o'clock, the second at 3 o'clock is 18" high, the 3rd is 27" high and the 4th is 36" at the top. I was looking from this same side, where the incline begins, at 6 o'clock when I said the first 360 was fine, but the train stopped at the second 360 also at 6 o'clock.  From the first 9" height at 3 o'clock there are only 3 loops around the mountain.  I just measured the track diameters, not my structure diameter, and the fist diameter of raised track is approximately 64"; the second is 48" and the third is 36".

Thanks Gilly@N&W for your reply

If it's built just like how the movie is, I think you're problem is all in the grades.  To go up 9" on a 78" diameter curve gives you a grade of 3.6 percent, and I like to round up to 3.7%.  That is do able, however, the next loop you say is 64" and I am assuming another 9" in elevation.  That gives you a 4.5% grade.  A short train could handle that.  

My point is that because you have smaller track diameter's as you are going up, the grade gets steeper.  One way to fix this is to reduce the rise in elevation per loop as the track diameter gets smaller.

Now if the train just stops dead, not slipping or any straining, then you have an electrical problem.  I hope I helped, sometimes I don't.

Good luck!

-James

Run power, from the transformer(or terminal strips / bus bars connected to the Z) to the track at each level, at the 3:00 and 9:00 positions.  In case you have not yet noticed, each full size section of Fastrack has terminal connector lugs on the bottom side to aid in this.  This will take care of any power issues.

Now, the next problem is the grade issue.  You are gaining the same 9" height for each circle of track, which has a diminishing circumference as you go up.  The grade is much steeper at the top, so no amount of power may help.

If the last loop really is O-36(18" radius), your at about 8% for that last section.

Also, a picture might help in a diagnosis.  You can add that with the attachments at the bottom of the 'post reply' box that pops up when wanting to post.

OK, here is where I am at after all you very appreciated responses:

1- The mountain is built and fully decorated therefore, the grades cannot be changed.

2- The engine's rear wheels already have rubber bands on them.

3- The track is clean.

4- The only thing left is to put power at each level.  I will do this by running wires to each level and attaching all 3 sets of wires to the same two terminals on my transformer.  One question:  Should I use 14 or 18 gauge wire?

I am very doubtful that my grandchildren will see the Polar Express reach the North Pole this year!

Thanks everyone and Merry Christmas

JimJ

Can you post a picture or a few pictures?

well, it sound's like you are stuck.  Oh well I guess. 14 gauge wire is what I use.  Remember that the larger the wire, the less resistance.

However, if the train is running fine right up until the steep grade, I don't think adding more wire will solve the problem completely, although it might help.

So I am going to say that it is the grades after all.  You might still be able to tweak the grades, it is possible that the locomotive is going up an uneven slope, so some places have a 3% grade, and others have a 5-6% grade.  Going back through and double checking everything might still be time well spent.

I want to thank all of my new friends for talking me through my power problem.  Here is what I ended up doing....

First I replaced the 18 gauge wire, the only power source to the mountain, with 14 gauge wire.  Next, I added power wires to the second and third levels of the mountain all at 11 o'clock.

The Great News is it worked  The engine along with the tender and two passenger cars can easily make it to the top of the mountain and on to the North Pole

Myself and my grandchildren thank all of you for your time and help in solving my power problem.  Merry Christmas, JimJ.

Well then, sounds like a merry Christmas to you!

I think we would all still like to see some photo shots of this great sounding project!

If someone will tell me how to add a picture from my cell phone to this reply I will gladly send a picture.  In the meantime, I can send a picture via my cell phone.  If any of you would like to share your e-mail address I will send a picture.

I now have another electrical problem. I have a Blocked Section just before the incline up the mountain.  Prior to the Blocked Section I have "Floor Speed".  Right after the Blocked Section, I have "Mountain Speed".  If the train is going slowly, sparks come from under the Engine and the train stops dead!  If the train has a little more Floor Speed, the engine easily goes over the blocked section and the sparks happen under the tender or first passenger car and the train goes dead!  With the train Dead, with the engine on one side of the blocked section and the other cars on the other side of the blocked section and I cut off the power to the loop before the blocked section, the engine comes alive and goes easily up the mountain.

Please tell me what is happening and how to fix it.

Thanks, JimJ     jimjakubecy@gmail.com

Does your 2 different speeds come from 2 different transformers? If so the transformers might not be in phase with each other. Send me the picture and I'll post it for you. My email is in my profile.

Ron

RailfanRon,

I looked in your profile but could not find an e-mail address.

Yes, the current on either side of the Blocked Section are from two different transformers.  I will try to make this switch this morning.

In the meantime I have one last problem.  After the train makes it up the mountain, over to the North Pole it comes back across the bookshelf and down a ramp to the floor.  I have a Blocked Section at the top of this ramp to slow the train down and one at the bottom to bring it up to Floor Speed.  My engine 'studders' all the way down the ramp.  It stops and starts in small increments.  What is happening?

Thanks,

JimJ / jimjakubecy@gmail.com

OK, I solved one of two electrical problems.

I ran a ground wire from one transformer to the other.  This did not help by itself.  I then turned the wall plug and it worked.  No more sparks at the blocked section at the base of the mountain and the train goes smoothly over the blocked section and up the mountain.

My one remaining problem is after the train circles the North Pole, travels along the book case over to the top of the ramp down to the floor.  The engine crosses over another blocked section at the top of the down ramp to slow the train down.  Before and after this blocked section are powered by the same transformer.  When the train goes on to "Ramp Speed" the engine shortly studders and stops.  Without my touching a thing, the train studders and stops all the way down to the floor.  I noticed that when the train studders and stops, the lights go out in the passenger cars.  When the trains moves forward by itself the lights remain out in the passenger cars.  The lights do not come on until the train crosses the last blocked section at the bottom of the ramp and on to "Floor Speed".

HELP

Merry Christmas,

JimJ.

Try just the locomotive on the down ramp.

Rob,

The engine alone did run much smoother.  Why?  The same tender and two passenger cars run just fine around the floor, up the mountain, around the North Pole until the ramp?

JimJ.

It appears you might still have a phasing issue involving the down ramp but more than likely it is just the nature of your consist. 

The passenger cars are causing either a short circuit or fault current when they bridge block/power districts because the center rail rollers are connected to each other inside each car.  The wiring inside each car is carrying the current from the previous block and feeding it to the locomotive.

The only time the fault current is not flowing is when a coupler is straddling the break in the center rail delineating the adjacent power districts.  Every time a car is bridging the gap the loco will respond to the power level set in the trailing block.

This was not a problem with Lionel passenger cars previously with only one pickup roller per car, but the lights flickered horribly.  When production moved to China, it was suddenly economical with materials and labor costs being so minutely incremental after initial setup, that Lionel addressed the annoying flickering problem by placing collectors on each truck.  It works great until you attempt exactly what you are doing now. 

As a by product of the "fix", another problem comes up too.  The current of an entire train, or whatever is being track powered in an adjacent block, can now be passed through the fine small gauge wiring in each car originally intended to just light the bulbs setting up a possible melting & fire hazard if the train is left unattended.

There is an easy fix to both problems with a nominal investment and an hour or so of time.  Install a small full-wave bridge rectifier(less than 1 amp is fine) powered by each pickup & ground on the AC side, or 2 per car, and tie together the "+" outputs to each other, and the "-" outputs to each other, effectively running the lights on the DC outputs & blocking any back-feeding of current from one truck to the other.

Single diodes in-line with the center rail pickups will work too, for half-wave current to the lights, but they will be less bright.

I just put a PTC in the line between the trucks.

Rob, you just went way over my head!

John, what is a PTC ?

Rob, I have 5 blocked sections in my layout.  It seems to me that what you say is happening at the top of the ramp should be happening at the other 4 locations as well?  Sorry for being so technical stupid but, I don't understand?  Also, I understand that the trailing passenger car could be transferring power to the engine but, why is the train studdering and stammering on the ramp when the entire train is within one power source on the "Ramp Speed" down?  Remember, both power sources prior to and after the blocked section come from the same transformer so, I think out of phase is out of the question?

JimJ.

Jim;

I think the problem may be the wires to that block got swapped.

The one going to the center is the connection that goes to the outer rails in other blocks.

That will give you a short killing power as each lighted car crosses the line from block to block.

A quick check if you have a meter, put one lead on the center rail of the North Pole block and one on the center rail of the Downgrade.

The meter should read zero volts.

If it reads track voltage you have the wires to the downgrade reversed - Swap them.

The other solutions offered involve modifying the cars so the do not bridge power from block to block.

PTC aka Resettable Circuit Breaker

They're readily available at Mouser or Digikey in various current handling sizes.

To all my railroading friends that tried to help me with my powering problem on the Polar Express Mountain.  My wife made this U-tube video.  Hope you all can view it.  Happy New Year.  http://youtu.be/o-ezOyjP7h8

JimJ

Thanks for the video. That's certainly an unusual Christmas layout! I must say that the grades are rather extreme, especially that straight ramp coming down from the shelf to the floor. I note that you cut your Polar Express down to two passenger cars, presumably to enable it to climb the spiral grade. As a general rule, operation will be more manageable if you keep grades under 5 or 6% !

WOW, that is very cool!  I love the down chute for returning trains, I never would have thought of that.