Need help with a wire diagram for my layout!

RTR12, the big difference with your table design is that you can run wires directly to the terminal blocks and not have to run them around the layout.

Another thing I just thought about is the entry bridge. Ideally he'd locate the TIU in the bottom center and then run wires to terminal blocks on the left and right. Those would then serve each half of the layout and not have to cross the entryway. If it were me, I'd put the control panel on the left side of the circle where he could see most of the layout while working the panel. I'll have to give that some more thought. Maybe that's what Richie means by "center". 

Yes, I know the around the room plans are different than mine as far as wire routing and Z4K/TIU/Control stuff locations go. I hadn't given much thought to the bridge either, but was just throwing some things out that work here. I am also not certain about how the layout will be operated as far as the center loop and wyes go. Thought it might give Mike some food for though to digest for a while.

I didn't say anything about the AIU either, but that shouldn't be too difficult to add later on. As I think I have talked to you about, I located my manual switch control buttons near the switches on the layout with the intention of adding an AIU later on. After using them for a while I decided I may not like the switches controlled by the AIU.

Just some minor details like that to let Mike think about for a while. You guys are all way ahead of me as far as layout operating and track plans and such go. I will probably never catch up with all of that stuff?

Also as Mike stated, he needs PCRR Dave or BArry or someone to help with the operation of the Z4K control add-ons and what they do and why he needs one, etc. I am clueless in that department as well as Z4K operations. I know they do some special stuff, but what I have no idea.

I was thinking where you have the TIU, near the circle/wye tracks is probably not a bad place, then he could go both ways and they would be similar. The lift out bridge will need some thought though as you say. Could be what Richie was talking about too?

Didn't mean to offend, was just pointing out the differences for others. I'm going to take a break until Mike and Richie chime back in.

Just wondering what you guys think of this?

Mike, are the Yellow dots where the isolation connectors will be or where you plan to connect power? If isolation connectors, I don't see any in the circle and I think there needs to be some. If power, where do the blocks begin/end? I assume you plan on using 1 port on the TIU for Track 1 and the other for Track 2.

Yes you are correct on both, I thought the circle could be included, but if not I can  isolate that and add another set of drops.

Big Mike,

   These men are giving you good advise, being that you are building new layout from the ground up like mine, I also recommend an over head shelf ceiling layout before you start not the ground level.  Got to tell ya I enjoy my Train Room so much because of the over head ceiling layout.  

Now I would run the Star Wiring, and use the 10 -13 Track join discipline for sure.  It really does make for great DCS sign strength.  Further I have found that the TIU portrays DCS signal nicely when the TIU's are mounted on the wall between the over head ceiling layout and the Ground layouts.  Definitely use good quality 14 Gauge stranded wire.  If you are running both DCS and Legacy run your Legacy connection on the out black channels of your TIU and also directly from the Legacy base to the opposite outside Track Rail from your TIU drops.  This gives max Legacy signal also.  I use MTH Terminal Blocks when running my 14 gauge stranded wire.

I also have 10 Amp Resettable breakers between all my Z4K/ ZW Transformers and my TIU's, they work perfectly.   I also simply use the DCS TIU TVS to protect my layout,  I have never had a problem running in this manner.  

Mike setting up in this manner uses a lot of good 14 Gauge stranded wire, remember also I run FasTrack and use Command Control Switches, operated from my Legacy Cab2 HHRC, all my switches are wireless remote control, no AIU's in my layouts what so ever, this eliminates all switch wiring.  

Have fun building buddy, still working on upgrading the old house for sale, busy as all get out right now.  If you need more help drop me some e-mail and I will check in here as time permit!

PCRR/Dave

Mike I know full well I never need to tell you this, we always need to remember to pay our respects to the men who have provided our freedom -  Memorial Day is this weekend.  God bless our incredible Military men and ladies who have given their lives so we may all live free, in the Greatest Christian Country in the world.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Didn't mean to offend, was just pointing out the differences for others. I'm going to take a break until Mike and Richie chime back in.

If this was for me I wasn't offended in any way. I didn't mean anything to sound that way either. Sorry if it did sound that way, not my intent at all. I was just trying to put some more thoughts out there for discussion. You guys already had most everything covered anyway.

My thinking doesn't get typed out well sometimes...

I wasn't sure, so I apologized just in case. It's all good.  I need to send you an email and catch up.

mike g. posted:

Yes you are correct on both, I thought the circle could be included, but if not I can  isolate that and add another set of drops.

I agree with DoubleDaz Dave above about the loop & wyes needing a separate block and power feed. If not, I think there will be too many track joints in that entire section. Maybe an isolation pin at each wye connection to the main and then power feed to the upper part of the loop. I think that should be ok.

The only other thing would be to isolate after the switch leg going off to the right and feed that loop separately also. Providing it meets the track joints rule. If it doesn't then you might need another block out there.

As far as I can see the isolation points look pretty good to me. Not sure I can see all the yellow dots, but I think I can. Then add power feeds in the center of each block and I think you have it. And the switches for the sidings. 

PCRR Dave is right about the star wiring and proper blocks. I haven't had an error since I wired my layout like that. That is the one thing that I though made the big difference for me. Before that I got DCS errors every so often when I didn't have proper blocks set up. 

DoubleDAZ posted:

I wasn't sure, so I apologized just in case. It's all good.  I need to send you an email and catch up.

Thanks, you are too kind! Sorry it came off like that. I am a highly UN-skilled writer, should have stayed awake in English Comp I guess?

A bit off topic (sorry Mike), but I have been busy with my grandson and RC crawler trucks the last few months. That is another great way to empty your wallet (I need to find a way to fill a wallet). Could even be worse than trains and layouts? We have been having a lot of fun though, so it's all worth it. He'll be 13 next month so not much time left, he will be out doing other stuff and probably won't want to hang around with grandpa much.

RTR, Dave and Dave, Thank you so much for all the information! Its a lot to take in but I think I have it. I know if I don't I know where to go for more questions! LOL

I think I have enough information to buy the items I need when I get to that point!

Thanks again everyone!

DoubleDAZ posted:

Richie,

I confused the track with Mark's, Mike is using MTH ScaleTrax, and I understand why you mentioned the 1 3/8" FT since the brand hasn't been mentioned in this thread.

The reason I kept the yellow and pink separate is so he could park engines on both and turn off the power.

I don't know if Mike has decided that is where his control panel will go. If he puts it there, his back will be to the layout as he flips the block switches on the panel and work the Z-4000 handles for conventional running. But like I said, I'm assuming he'll need to do that, I don't know what the Conventional module does for the Z-4000.

When it comes to the location for terminal blocks, I am completely lost as to what you mean by "center". With an around-the-room design, there is no "center". No matter where you place the Z-4000, there will be wires run to the TIU. From the TIU, there will be wires run to terminal blocks and from those to the tracks. AFAIK, most folks mound the TIU close to the Z-4000 and then run wires to terminal blocks scattered around the layout, pretty much like Mike's diagram.

Here's another diagram following RTR12's suggestion to break the layout into quarters.  The Red lines show the 10 feeds to the dual mains. The purple show the feeds to the yard. If it were my layout and I wanted the Z-4000/TIU located to the left of the entry bridge where Mike has it, I'd move the left block all the way to the left and the right block all the way to the right. The line from the TIU to the right terminal block would be longer than the left, but I don't see that as a problem.  From the terminal blocks, the wires to the tracks (Gray circles) of the main runs from each block would be similar. There is nothing magical about using all the ports on a terminal block, so if Mike wanted, he could add a 3rd terminal block just for the yard and it would have the purple feeds.

And when it comes to how best to use the Z-4000, I have no idea. My understanding is that for conventional running, all the switches on the control panel would be DPDT so you could switch power from one side of the Z-4000 to the other as conventional trains controlled by each side move around the layout. I assume he'd use the Variable ports on the TIU and control the speed with the throttles. I don't know if the Conventional module lets you use the Fixed ports and control the speed with the DCS remote. I'm pretty sure if you use the Variable ports for DCS operation, you have to turn the throttles all the way off and then back on each time you power up. I believe the Fixed ports provide full power as soon as the Z-4000 is turned on. Again, I'm out of my element when it comes to the Z-4000 and conventional running.

 

Just chiming back in after being away for the weekend - certainly no offense taken on my part and, hopefully, none given.

I like the design of this plan. Not sure where the power is coming from to feed the TIU, but the overall design looks good to me. Splitting the operation of the Z-4K between command and conventional is beyond what I feel comfortable commenting on, since I run only command, but I'll take a stab (apologizes up front if I'm wrong):

1. If you're talking about switching the whole layout at one time from command to conventional or vice-versa than I think you would want one handle of the Z-4K going to fixed 1 (in and out) and the other handle to variable 1 (in and out). This handle would control conventional. The two outputs would go to a master switch and then output to each block. The switch would have to be capable of switching the output to each block from the fixed or variable voltage inputs. At that point, you're only powering the layout from one transformer output.

2. If you're talking about using one loop for conventional and one loop for command,  than I think you would want one handle of the Z-4K going to fixed 1 (in and out) and then to a terminal block that feeds only the loop for running command. The other handle would go to variable 1 (in and out). This handle would control conventional and then to a terminal block that feeds only the loop for running conventional. Since the loops are electrically separated, you should be ok.

There may be better ways to do it but that's what I'm thinking.

Hi Richie, If you have Barry's DCS Book, I just read under Z4k tracks it looks like the z4000 side receiver takes care of everything ! If you have it maybe you could look at it tell me if I am right or wrong?

mike g. posted:

Hi Richie, If you have Barry's DCS Book, I just read under Z4k tracks it looks like the z4000 side receiver takes care of everything ! If you have it maybe you could look at it tell me if I am right or wrong?

Hey Mike,

I'll take a look tonight and let you know tomorrow. I never read that section as it never applied to my set-up. 

Richie C. posted:

mike g. posted:

Hi Richie, If you have Barry's DCS Book, I just read under Z4k tracks it looks like the z4000 side receiver takes care of everything ! If you have it maybe you could look at it tell me if I am right or wrong?

Hey Mike,

I'll take a look tonight and let you know tomorrow. I never read that section as it never applied to my set-up. 

Sounds good Richie, its on page 97!

Mike,

Again, no expert in this but, as best I can tell, setting up a Z4K track and using the side receiver simply allows you control one (or both) handles of the Z-4K transformer remotely using the DCS remote; generally for conventional running.

When you run conventional, train speed is controlled by moving the handle up or down to increase or decrease voltage to the track and the train speeds up or slows down, depending on which direction you push/pull the transformer handle (throttle). By using the side receiver you are simply doing that remotely using the DCS remote instead of physically manipulating the handle. When you use the side receiver to control the voltage to the track, the handle doesn't move, but the voltage changes internally in the transformer to either increase or decrease train speed. So, essentially, you are just eliminating the need to physically move the handle up or down and are doing it remotely by using the side receiver.

In your layout, let's say you wanted to use the inner loop for running conventional engines and the outer for command control. You would set up a Z4K track for one handle using the side receiver and remote for the inner loop and then be able to use the remote to control the voltage going to the inner loop and thus, the speed of the conventional train, without having to touch the transformer. You would set up the outside loop to run command control using the other handle and then you would be able to operate both loops, conventional and command, using just the remote.

However, since all using the side receiver does is allow you to operate a Z4K handle remotely, AFAIK, it does not change the way that the wiring needs to be set up for the layout, with the possible exception that you would use a fixed input and output on the TIU for the Z4K track instead of using a variable input/output.

Hopefully, this all checks out and helps.

Thanks Richie, I hope to have it all figured out by the time I get to that point! I still have a ways to go!