Need help with a wire diagram for my layout!

Mike, this is a very good question!  I know how I would wire it for conventional running in HO, but I have never done anything other than hook each of my TIU fixed channels to each of my separate loops on my Christmas layout!  I have read a lot of Forum posts, and read Barry's Book, but I have no practical experience as of yet.  Rather amazing since I have had my TIU for 5 years now.  

I'll look forward to seeing what is recommended since I have followed along on the development of your layout plan. 

Thanks Mark, hope I don't get beat up to bad from these electrical folk's LOL

Mike, sorry, but I found that yard configuration is not going to work. I explained why there, so I won't go into here. I posted an alternative in your other thread, one pretty close to something I had posted much earlier. Maybe Carl can come up with something if he gets a chance to take a look at it.

As for wiring, I'm also curious. Like Mark, I pretty much know what Barry's book says when it comes to 10' and 12-13 joints, but I'm a little light on wiring switches, especially for crossovers. Hopefully someone else will chime in with some ideas.

Hi Everyone, I have updated the post with the correct picture and added the SCARM file for anyone who wishes to look at it!

Well 122 views, no ideas yet! Please help a guy out! 

Okay, Mike, I'll start the ball rolling by breaking the design into some blocks and maybe drum up some discussion. I'll be running DCS only, but I believe power blocks at the same locations will work for conventional. It's been a long time since I've wired a layout and wiring switches has always confused me.

Thanks Dave, Are the different colors different blocks? Plus I would isolate each block from the other?

Yes, Mike, the different colors represent different blocks. For DCS, I believe only the center rails need to be isolated, but I think most isolate all 3 because they also run Conventional. Some might suggest added breaks where I put the Red marks because those are over the recommended 10' limit for DCS. For Conventional, I believe all 3 need to be isolated and wires get run to a central control panel with switches for each block. My only experience with Conventional was way back in the mid 70's with a single main and some spurs/passing sidings.

Dave I don't see any red marks, also how do you add color to the track?

Dang, too many things going on I forgot to add the photo.

Dave has it pretty close, I think. Only go by the number of track joints (10 to 12 per block) and not 10'. I don't have SCARM so I can't edit your files, but maybe I can butcher something with Paint and re-post? I'll see what I can come up with in the next couple of days. I am not much of a conventional runner and I don't have a Z-4000 or it's remote add on, but I know there are some added things you can do with it for conventional operation, I think. You can also run conventional with the variable DCS channels.

I would recommend getting Barry's book, lots of good stuff in there about everything DCS. If you plan to get wifi he has one for wifi and one for regular old DCS with TIU and Remote only. I believe the main differences between the books are that one covers the remote and one covers the deluxe wifi app. Barry could clarify for sure. As I recall the Z-4000 and it's remote are covered in the DCS Companion as far as DCS operation is concerned. I don't know if the WIFI Companion covers the Z4K stuff?

RTR12, I agree with the 10-12 joints, but I was trying to avoid multiple switches in a block and kind of divide blocks evenly. It doesn't make much sense to me to have a 10-12 joint block followed by a 5-6 joint block. It was also just to generate some discussion and to give Mike a general idea of how to divide things.

I also don't know that the straight sections are all "fixed" yet either. For sure, the switches on the bridge are just there to keep the spacing intact until I'm sure the design is finished and will be replaced with straight tracks. Those will have to be long enough to span the aisle for the lift up bridge and that will affect the other straights between the switches on the curves.

Then too, I haven't really looked at all the straights to see where joints can be reduced. For example, you can see that a lot of smaller straights can be replaced with longer ones along the bottom. I also don't know if Mike wants to cut a 37" straight to replace say a couple of 12's and a 6 to reduce the number of joints.

Thanks RTR, I do have Barry's book also the DCS DVD which is a great big help! I just need some help getting in the right direction. I will post a picture I came across that show how to wire for DCS but it just has my brain spinning! I hope some one can make it simpler for me to understand . with the exception of the curves I plan on using as much 30" long track I can. But not to go over board either.

Here is the picture I was talking about. 

Okay, Mike, see if this diagram from an output on the TIU to a 12-port Terminal Block helps. You'd repeat much of that on the other side from another output on the TIU to another 12-port Terminal Block. Each black line indicates the 2 power feeds to the track. What I don't show are the lines to the Control Panel for conventional running. To do that, you'd run each of lines from the Terminal Block to the Control Panel and then on to the respective track.

WOW Dave, that sure was fast! I just got done removing some small sections and replaced wit larger sections of track to reduce number of joints. I just done know how to put the color back or the bridges! LOL

Thanks Dave, so I just fallow that same program every 10 joints? You Rock Dave! 

I think with a side receiver for the Z4000 I can run everything with my DCS Remote, conventional also!

I am hoping Pine Creek Dave chimes in! He also has a z4000 with a side receiver and runs both!

Yes, but if there are 16 joints, you can separate them into two blocks each with 8 joints if you want. The blocks just shouldn't contain more that 12 joints. And AFAIK there's really nothing sacred about that. My RealTrax oval has about 20 joints and 2 engines run just fine as one contiguous oval with no insulated joint. I think the 10-12 joints is a guide that works for most installations where the distance from the terminal blocks to the tracks isn't overly long.

mike g. posted:

I am hoping Pine Creek Dave chimes in! He also has a z4000 with a side receiver and runs both!

You might need to send him an email or something to point him to this thread.

mike g. posted:

WOW Dave, that sure was fast! I just got done removing some small sections and replaced wit larger sections of track to reduce number of joints. I just done know how to put the color back or the bridges! LOL

Sorry, forgot to respond to this. You simply use the Color tool. Open the tool by clicking the small arrow and select the color you want. You can even make custom colors and save them for later use. Once you set the tool to the color you want, select the track you want to change and select the tool, only this time you don't click the small arrow, just click on the small colored track.

mike g. posted:

WOW Dave, that sure was fast! I just got done removing some small sections and replaced with larger sections of track to reduce number of joints.

The only reason to do all that is so the program can show you how many of which tracks you need to buy. In the Tools menu, you'll find an option for a Parts List.

Thanks for all your help Dave! Its people like you that make this Forum a great place!

Thanks Mike. We're all here to help when we can and get help when we need it. I'm surprised Carl hasn't chimed in yet, must be super busy.

He said he was really busy with something! If it wasn't for him jumping in and helping me a year ago I would never be this far!

Ok I think I got the wire done right, here is a snap shot. If not please correct me! Like I said I and slow with electrical.

Mike, I'm no expert either, but here goes.

1. You show the Z-4K, the TIU and two distribution blocks (one at each end of the layout) which is ok, but it looks like you have 7-8 track feeds coming out of the left one and only 3 coming out of the right one, which seems kind of imbalanced.

2. Also, it doesn't seem that the plan shows where each block starts and where it ends (where the 10-12 track sections start and end for each feed).

3. Also, my understanding is that each separate block of 10-12 sections has to be electrically separated from the ones at each end, either with a 1 3/8 " FT section or by fiber pins or cutting the center rail, etc.

4. My recollection is also that the track feed from the distribution block to the track should be somewhere close to the middle of each of the 10-12 section blocks.

5. Does it make sense that one distribution block feeds the inner loop and circle and the other distribution block feeds the outer loop and yard ?

6. It's not clear to me whether the two loops will be electrically connected or separated. You could have one handle of the Z feeding power through the TIU (Fixed 1 in and out) to one distribution block and the other handle feeding power through the TIU (Fixed 2 in and out) to the other distribution block.

Richie, thanks for your comments! Like I stated, I have never done a DCS layout before and never worried about power blocks and such. My last layout was 2 rail with 2 dog bone loops. so I just ran a buss wire and feeds every 6 feet.

to be honest I have no idea what I am doing, I am just shooting from the hip! I have Barry's book and the OGR DCS video, but as stated before I am really SLOW! LOL

No problem - I'm in the same boat as you inbuilding a new layout very similar to yours and the above is how I plan on doing it.

In re-reading Dave's post, it looks like each color is a separate block, so you have to have a track feed going to each colored section, so that's the place to start. It looks like there are 15 colored sections (blocks) - 8 for the outer loop and yard and 7 for the inner loop and circle -  so you need 15 track feeds, total. It looks like you might be one or two short (hard to tell from the diagram).

I would use one distribution block for the outer loop and yard with 8 track feeds and the other distribution block for the inner loop and circle with 7 feeds. I would also make sure the feeds are about in the middle of each colored section.

That should get you started.

Richie, sounds like a great plan, but I thought I read somewhere that all the feeds should be about the same length, I know mine are not, but I am still working on it!

Thanks for your advice, its always welcome!

No - that "myth" about equal length feeds has been dispelled.

Attached is the response from Barry B. to that question in an earlier thread:

Q.  Do the wires running from the terminal boards to the track all have to be the same length (for example, if the block that is  furthest away from the terminal board is 20 ft, do all the wires running from the terminal board to the blocks have to be 20 ft even though some of them are less then 20 ft away)?  I've read online that with TIU Rev. L, you don't have to have all the wires the same length but I wanted to ask to be sure.

A.  This is an "urban myth" that has been circulating since the beginning of DCS and is absolutely not true. Further, it's not true when using any TIU, Rev. L or earlier. Wire runs can be any length at all and may all be completely different lengths on a layout. Additionally, a pair of wires, Hot and Common, may have different lengths, as well.

Ricie,

Just my opinion, but it's fairly easy to keep wires straight if the hot and common are the same length, but that's just a personal preference. Some folks even use bus wiring for the outside rails and that has been shown to work.

The blocks are all color-coded for easier viewing. I would attach the wires in the middle of the blocks, but it't not necessary to be that specific in the drawing, but was a good point to mention.

I would not use 1 3/8" FasTrack sections on a Ross/GG layout, they'll stand out. If you want smooth joints, use insulated connectors made for that purpose. If you don't mind the clickity-clack between joints, just use a Roto tool and cutoff wheel to cut the track, but it should be easy enough to end each block at a full track.

If you use one terminal block for the inner loop and another for the outer loop, you'll have to run wires a fairly long distance and around to the opposite side of the layout. Dividing the layout in left and right sections means shorter wire runs to each block, though actual feet of wire used will be about the same. If you place the Z-4000 and terminal blocks where they are in the diagram, wire runs to the terminal blocks is similar. If you want similar loads from each terminal block, you can add a 3rd one just for the 3 blocks in the yard. I don't believe it makes any difference electrically. However, I don't know enough about the Z-4000 and Conventional running, so it might be best to separate the layout into 2 sections; 1) inner loop w/circle and 2) outer loop w/yard. 

IIRC, when I was running HO in the 70's and had 2 trains in the same block, they worked off the same transformer and ran at the same speed. If I wanted to control them separately, I needed to make sure they were always in different blocks and that the DPDT switches on the control panel were set correctly as the trains moved around the layout. You spent your time flipping switches. I know DCS changes that and I assume DCC did too.

It is hard to see unless you save the photo and zoom in, but he's only missing a feed to the yellow yard tracks and I'm not sure the yellow and pink tracks need to be separate blocks. One of the worse things about the Figures library in SCARM is that there's no line option, you have to make your own using filled in rectangles, and it's very difficult to keep the thickness stable.

Mike, you did a good job interpreting what I posted and what the DCS guide says. Richie brought up some good points if you are trying to be exact with the diagram, especially where the wires attach to the tracks in each block.

I want to thank you both! It's all great information, and I think I am on the right track! LOL

DoubleDAZ posted:

Ricie,

Just my opinion, but it's fairly easy to keep wires straight if the hot and common are the same length, but that's just a personal preference. Some folks even use bus wiring for the outside rails and that has been shown to work. - Agreed, but since Mike was asking about equal wire lengths, I thought I'd post the answer from one of our resident experts.

The blocks are all color-coded for easier viewing. I would attach the wires in the middle of the blocks, but it't not necessary to be that specific in the drawing, but was a good point to mention. - OK

I would not use 1 3/8" FasTrack sections on a Ross/GG layout, they'll stand out. If you want smooth joints, use insulated connectors made for that purpose. If you don't mind the clickity-clack between joints, just use a Roto tool and cutoff wheel to cut the track, but it should be easy enough to end each block at a full track. - I didn't know what kind of track was being used, but any of those solutions works.

If you use one terminal block for the inner loop and another for the outer loop, you'll have to run wires a fairly long distance and around to the opposite side of the layout. Dividing the layout in left and right sections means shorter wire runs to each block, though actual feet of wire used will be about the same. If you place the Z-4000 and terminal blocks where they are in the diagram, wire runs to the terminal blocks is similar. If you want similar loads from each terminal block, you can add a 3rd one just for the 3 blocks in the yard. I don't believe it makes any difference electrically. However, I don't know enough about the Z-4000 and Conventional running, so it might be best to separate the layout into 2 sections; 1) inner loop w/circle and 2) outer loop w/yard. - I should have mentioned I was anticipating Mike being able to mount the distribution blocks nearer to the center of the layout so you'd have a true "star wiring" pattern and no runs of the entire width of the layout. In addition, by placing the distribution blocks at the ends of the layout rather than nearer the center, you're now making quite a long run from the TIU to each block - sort of like, pick your poison. IMHO it seems to make the most sense to have both the TIU and the blocks closer to the center of the layout. In that way, the run from TIU to the blocks is relatively short and the runs from the blocks to the track are no longer than half the width/length of the layout. The only thing I don't know is if the layout can physically be set up that way. I guess my approach to DCS is to do whatever you can to minimize the chances for signal degradation and maximize the chances for all 10's. 

IIRC, when I was running HO in the 70's and had 2 trains in the same block, they worked off the same transformer and ran at the same speed. If I wanted to control them separately, I needed to make sure they were always in different blocks and that the DPDT switches on the control panel were set correctly as the trains moved around the layout. You spent your time flipping switches. I know DCS changes that and I assume DCC did too. - Your diagram shows a cut between the yellow and blue sections right at the two switches and since these are the only two connections between the two loops, I think you are electronically separating each loop. So the question becomes how is each loop and distribution block being powered - through one fixed output or two from the TIU ? - one handle of the Z-4K or two ? I don't know how Mike intends to set it up.

It is hard to see unless you save the photo and zoom in, but he's only missing a feed to the yellow yard tracks and I'm not sure the yellow and pink tracks need to be separate blocks. One of the worse things about the Figures library in SCARM is that there's no line option, you have to make your own using filled in rectangles, and it's very difficult to keep the thickness stable. - I think the yellow and pink can be on one feed, too.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend everyone !

All good suggestions here and I agree with most all of them. I'll add my thoughts, but a lot of them have been said already. 

I think I would isolate each loop with isolation pins in the center rail of each cross over switch. Use one handle of the Z4K for each loop. I think you could then run a DCS train on one and a conv. train on the other, just don't cross over between loops. You could also use the fixed channels of the TIU and operate conventional by using the Z4K handles (or possibly the Z4K add on device?)

I would probably just quarter each loop to create blocks (easy and even that way), again isolation pins in center rail between each quarter block. Then run a pair of wires to the center of each block, length doesn't matter. I think the idea is to have a send and receive wire to each block of somewhat similar length for xmit & rec - TIU to track as DCS is 2 way communication.

Many folks say to connect the two outer rails with a jumper wire, but others leave one outer rail not connected to common for operating accessories, signals, etc. I have a smaller layout not a lot different than yours and I have one outer rail with no common connection and it works just fine, but every layout is different. If you have a problem I suppose you could always add jumpers as needed. If you do use just one outer rail, make sure you use the same one throughout on each loop. 

Then I would isolate the center rail for each siding/spur where I thought I would park a train. I would install a switch in the wire to the center rail to toggle power to the siding/spur. It's good to turn off DCS engines when not being used as the clock keep ticking on them if powered.

As for the circle and wyes, I am not sure anything needs to be done there other than conform to the 10-12 joint rule and possibly create an extra block there if needed, just like the rest of the blocks. If you plan to use it as a siding to park a train then some thought on isolation pin placement and adding a switch for center rail power might be needed. 

Personally I am a big fan of the MTH terminal blocks and OGR wire. These things make it all pretty easy to wire up a layout for DCS. I think OGR was out of wire a while back and I am not sure they are going to restock or what, but it was twisted pair #14 & #16, all copper and very good wire. I suppose a replacement could be found somewhere?

For switch operation I used thermostat wire from Home Depot. It's fairly inexpensive and available in 2, 3, 5, 7 & maybe more conductors, 18 ga. I used mostly 2 & 3 conductor to wire my track switches. Only drawback is it's solid wire, but even so it is still pretty easy to work with. FOr me it worked out better than stranded because I didn't need any crimp on connectors, just wrapped it around the switch terminal screws and tightened the screw. This would work fine for accessories, lights, etc. as well.

I am sure I probably forgot something, but much has been covered above so someone has probably gotten it somewhere here.

This is pretty much what I did on my layout and it has worked flawlessly for a few years now. I have not gotten one DCS error since I got it set up, other than self inflicted ones that is. Mineis a little different as I use PH-180s for power and also have a Legacy system. Mine is also a one table layout (6' x 16') and not an around the room one as yours is, but we are pretty close here on many things.

Sorry, but as I said earlier I don't have a Z4K or the added control device for it so I can't offer any help (or would that be more confusion?) there.

I have a somewhat accurate picture of my layout & wiring around here somewhere, I'll post it when found. It is similar and might give you an idea of something similar to yours.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Ricie,

Just my opinion, but it's fairly easy to keep wires straight if the hot and common are the same length, but that's just a personal preference. Some folks even use bus wiring for the outside rails and that has been shown to work.

 

RJR enlightened me on this a while back with the outside rails. Basically, with no isolation pins in the outside rails, that is one big piece of bus wiring so everyone has it. I never got that until he told me that. Made perfect sense after that. It's the power rails that are most particular I guess. Maybe that will simplify things like it did for me. These little tips the pros throw out there once in a while are 'priceless'! However, I have to be wide awake or some of them just go right on by...no telling how many I have missed?  

RTR Thanks for all the information! I hope you don't mind me asking again when or if I run into a problem! I think I have it, but you never know! LOL

Richie,

I confused the track with Mark's, Mike is using MTH ScaleTrax, and I understand why you mentioned the 1 3/8" FT since the brand hasn't been mentioned in this thread.

The reason I kept the yellow and pink separate is so he could park engines on both and turn off the power.

I don't know if Mike has decided that is where his control panel will go. If he puts it there, his back will be to the layout as he flips the block switches on the panel and work the Z-4000 handles for conventional running. But like I said, I'm assuming he'll need to do that, I don't know what the Conventional module does for the Z-4000.

When it comes to the location for terminal blocks, I am completely lost as to what you mean by "center". With an around-the-room design, there is no "center". No matter where you place the Z-4000, there will be wires run to the TIU. From the TIU, there will be wires run to terminal blocks and from those to the tracks. AFAIK, most folks mound the TIU close to the Z-4000 and then run wires to terminal blocks scattered around the layout, pretty much like Mike's diagram.

Here's another diagram following RTR12's suggestion to break the layout into quarters.  The Red lines show the 10 feeds to the dual mains. The purple show the feeds to the yard. If it were my layout and I wanted the Z-4000/TIU located to the left of the entry bridge where Mike has it, I'd move the left block all the way to the left and the right block all the way to the right. The line from the TIU to the right terminal block would be longer than the left, but I don't see that as a problem.  From the terminal blocks, the wires to the tracks (Gray circles) of the main runs from each block would be similar. There is nothing magical about using all the ports on a terminal block, so if Mike wanted, he could add a 3rd terminal block just for the yard and it would have the purple feeds.

And when it comes to how best to use the Z-4000, I have no idea. My understanding is that for conventional running, all the switches on the control panel would be DPDT so you could switch power from one side of the Z-4000 to the other as conventional trains controlled by each side move around the layout. I assume he'd use the Variable ports on the TIU and control the speed with the throttles. I don't know if the Conventional module lets you use the Fixed ports and control the speed with the DCS remote. I'm pretty sure if you use the Variable ports for DCS operation, you have to turn the throttles all the way off and then back on each time you power up. I believe the Fixed ports provide full power as soon as the Z-4000 is turned on. Again, I'm out of my element when it comes to the Z-4000 and conventional running.

I found my layout wiring diagram. Not much, but I hope you can understand it and I think it might help with blocks and stuff if you do. I haven't read Dave's latest post above, that's next after this. I don't know how you guys keep up with all this! 

Feel free to ask questions and/or you can email me if you prefer. My email is in my profile.