Need Recommendations for: Conventional 027 Diesels (not Switchers) Late 1970s to early 90s, good AC can motors.

Define a "AC Can Motor".

You want DC motors, not Pullmors. Buy Williams. They are reproductions of Lionel's Post War engines but all come with DC can motors. They still run on AC powered track just like the Post War engines they are copied from.

Pete

Sorry for my improper use of the phrase "AC Canned."

What I mean is, that I understand that for a few years, Lionel made cheap engines (for starter sets) with canned motors, which came with DC transformers.   These engines which could run on AC, but would apparently burn out fairly quickly.  So, those are what I want to avoid. (As a matter of fact, I got a real cheap little switcher at a flea market, and it ran fine on DC current for several weeks.  I then decided to power my tracks with AC, and it ran fine for a little while, till it totally burned out.)       I am happy with canned motors that are designed to run on both DC and AC with no problems.

Mannyrock

Pete, is there any particular time period for which I should be looking at William engines?    Are we talking 70s and 80s, or are we talking about more recent models.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

@Norton posted:

You want DC motors, not Pullmors. Buy Williams. They are reproductions of Lionel's Post War engines but all come with DC can motors. They still run on AC powered track just like the Post War engines they are copied from.

Pete

i agree.  The Williams made before Bachmann are great runners and pretty much bullet proof.

Lionel started installing DC can motors in it's diesels after 1983. These locomotives came equipped with electronic E units and rectifiers to allow them to work with AC transformers. The Alco RS-3's from that period had them. I have several of those. They run well, although they are not the greatest of pullers.

@Mannyrock posted:

Pete, is there any particular time period for which I should be looking at William engines?    Are we talking 70s and 80s, or are we talking about more recent models.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

Like Wild Mary, I think the best ones were made in the early 2000s before Bachman took over. Usually come in mostly silver boxes and won't say Bachmann. These will have two flywheel equiped can motors with the exception of the PW style 44 tonners and have True Blast II if mentioned. Early ones in the orange or Black and white boxes may be OK but have no flywheels and maybe only a horn if any sound. I think they made just about every Lionel paint scheme plus others Lionel never did. Williams called the replicas their Golden Memories series.

Pete

Mannyrock,

If you're interested I have a set of Williams Western Pacific F3 AA units that I had listed for sale here. These great looking diesels are part of Williams Golden Memories series that basically replicated Lionel PW issues. These came in the "silver boxes" and are like new. I can guarantee you they have less than 30 minutes track time. As mentioned above these are excellent runners and are Williams "bullet proof."

If you think you might be interested contact me at my email which is in my profile.

@Mannyrock posted:

Need Recommendations for: Conventional 027 Diesels (not Switchers) Late 1970s to early 90s, good AC can motors.

With some clarification now, you want road engines, not switchers, that use DC can motors and are designed for AC track power, but not full scale diesels.

The RS-3 is a "road switcher", is that too close to a switcher?

Be sure to check the K-Line Alco models, which appear to fit your need.

I have several William's diesels and can attest to their bullet proof ness 😁

The dual motored units are jack rabbits and I've rewired all of mine in series to slow them down.

Most of my fleet are switchers but I recently bought this pair of Baldwin Sharks.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I hope I can see some more.

Rob, thanks for straightening out my nomenclature.

I briefly looked into some K-Line Trainmasters, and then I started reading online (and on this board) that they had annoying derailing problems on standard Lionel 022 switches.  Apparently, this can be fixed with some substituted parts, but I am really leery of buying something that is a project.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

I briefly looked into some K-Line Trainmasters,

Those are HUGE! I thought you were looking for something that wouldn't dwarf your layout.

Agree with the suggestion to look at the Lionel RS-series locomotives for your purposes.  Here are three I owned at one time to bring O27 FARR-series sets into the diesel age:

• 6-18803 Santa Fe RS-3
• 6-18832 Pennsy RSD-4
• 6-18843 Great Northern RS-3

Thanks for the tip Rob.  Really really hard to tell how huge an engine is by looking at online pictures alone.4

I' take a look at the RS series as suggested.

Mannyrock

Hi Mannyrock!

Good to see you're still at it. Please post some photos of your layout sometime.

Don't forget the newer Lionel LionChief items! They're reasonably priced and look great on a smaller layout.

When I see O27 in the request, my thought is that F3s COULD be a little bit big.  Even the ones that can handle 27" curves are 13" each or 26" for an AA or AB set.  Contrast that with Alco FAs that were compressed further truly for O27....the AA set is 20-22" long. On a small layout, that difference is substantial.

@johnstrains Williams F3s are GORGEOUS. In fact, I like the WPs as much as the Santa Fes, so I don't want to talk you out of them.

But, a Williams FA-2 (not their FA-1 which are similar in size to the F3s) or Alco FA-2s will be smaller.  Be sure to check if you're getting dual or single motors in the powered units.

What is an ALCo "El Capitan"?

Jon

@Mannyrock posted:

Thanks for the suggestions.  I hope I can see some more.

Rob, thanks for straightening out my nomenclature.

I briefly looked into some K-Line Trainmasters, and then I started reading online (and on this board) that they had annoying derailing problems on standard Lionel 022 switches.  Apparently, this can be fixed with some substituted parts, but I am really leery of buying something that is a project.

Mannyrock

One more point on Williams reproductions. They will run on the same track as their Lionel Post War counterparts. That means all will run flawlessly on 031 and all except the Trainmaster will run on 027. Not sure about the Trainmaster but AFAIK it was never included in an 027 set only 031 sets and separate sale.

Pete

@KOOLjock1 posted:

What is an ALCo "El Capitan"?

I'm assuming Manny means this: 

http://postwarlionel.com/motiv...s/alco/218-santa-fe/

These are already about the smallest diesel road units that Lionel ever produced... 

Mitch

My Alco is a Lionel Sante Fe War Chief #158 F-1.   I think (not sure) it was made in the early 2000 era.   It originally came in a set with a B unit, and the set was called the El Capitan set.

The length of this Alco is a full 12 inches, not counting the front and back couplers, which bring it to 13.5 inches.  Maybe this is the normal size for road engines made by Lionel, but I was really shocked by the size, since I thought the Switcher engines were the largest and my NW-2 is only 10.5 inches, not counting the couplers.

I am thinking of going to all diesels, since  I am finding that almost all of the steam locos I try on my layout create lots of noise and problems when crossing my track series of an 022 switch, followed by a diagonal crossing, followed by another 022 switch, followed by a 90 degree crossing.  Diesels have no problems going through this section, but steamers loudly clatter,  sputter, lose power and labor getting through it.    The delicacy of the front and back 2 or 4 wheel trucks on steamers is a total pain.  They jump, they clatter, and they derail too easily.

I thought that buying a 4-6-4 Hudson would solve some of these problems, but as you may have read in my current post about the JLC Hudson, that is proving to be a bust.

Thanks for all suggestions.   

Mannyrock

Raising Daughters,

You mention that there were FAs that were compressed further for truly 027.   I apologize that I didn't understand who made these and what the models were.   Are these the Williams FA-2?  You also mention Alco FA-2, but who made these?  Are these Lionel units?   Thanks for more info on this.

By the way, I don't believe I would ever run a two piece engine unit on my layout.  Only a single engine.  Having even a 22 inch double unit running on my layout would not look good, since that alone would be almost 25% of the size of my longest straight section. :-)

Mannyrock

Okay... after a little research, I found a Lionel EMD FT #158 that came with the El Capitan starter set.  It is painted in the "Warbonnet" paint scheme.  It is not an ALCo... which is why I was so confused.

The Lionel EMD FT's are approximately scale locos... sharing the size and heft of the Post War F3A's... but as the FT's were prototypically shorter than a F3, so is the model.

It sounds like what you want is either an O-27 ALCo FA from Lionel, Williams, or K-Line.  They all made models of almost exactly the same shrunken down size.  BUT:  Lionel and Weaver have also made SCALE versions of the same models, so be careful.

Jon

Jon,

Thanks so much for correcting me on this.  I bought this engine as a single unit on E-Bay, and it was advertised as an Alco.  Of course, I believed them. 

When it arrived in the single Lionel box, there was really not much labeling on the box, except a small tag that said Lionel 6-24568 FT.   I had no idea that the FT was an engine type.

The good new, is that it runs great, and the sound system works, and it handles 031 curves and switches without a hickup.  Just wish I had known more about its size.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

Manny:  What you're probably wanting would be "Traditional" sized locos as opposed to "Scale" locos.  Traditional sized locos are about 2/3rds the size of a full scale model, and look great on O27 and O31 track.   

So, the above link (http://postwarlionel.com/motiv...s/alco/218-santa-fe/) shows traditional sized locos.  I suspect they will be to your taste much more than scale locos will be. 

Mitch

Thanks Mitch.

I had no idea there was a category called Traditional size.

I searched online and found lots of great Williams 027 FA-2s, but it seems as if they are only sold in pairs, and the ones I looked at only had single motors.

I also looked at Lionel 027 FAs.  These don't seem to have the detail of the Williams, but there are lots of them sold separately and they are described as having dual motors. They are also less expensive than the Williams sets.

Both types are engines with only 10 inches or so in length, so they look good to me.

Thanks to all again,

Mannyrock

Take a look at K-lines FA's. Two motors and well made with great detail.  If your looking at Williams vs Lionel in those engines, go with Williams. There is a reason the Lionel version is cheaper. Don

@Mannyrock posted:

Thanks Mitch.

I had no idea there was a category called Traditional size.

I searched online and found lots of great Williams 027 FA-2s, but it seems as if they are only sold in pairs, and the ones I looked at only had single motors.

I also looked at Lionel 027 FAs.  These don't seem to have the detail of the Williams, but there are lots of them sold separately and they are described as having dual motors. They are also less expensive than the Williams sets.

Both types are engines with only 10 inches or so in length, so they look good to me.

Thanks to all again,

Mannyrock

Lionel made two versions of the FAs in the early years. The first ones, the two UP and the Erie had a cast frame. The later ones had a stamped steel frame. Williams versions are based on the early versions with the cast frame. The Golden Memories FAs have two motors. The earlier Williams had only one motor.

Pete

@scale rail posted:

Take a look at K-lines FA's. Two motors and well made with great detail.  If your looking at Williams vs Lionel in those engines, go with Williams. There is a reason the Lionel version is cheaper. Don

@ADCX Rob posted:

Be sure to check the K-Line Alco models, which appear to fit your need.

I posted this link, I'd hoped he would check it out...