Negotiating Prices at Train Shows

Negotiating is an art form and can be difficult.  A large part of it boils down to how bad you want it and how bad they want to sell it.

Many train sellers at York are very local and have less motivation to sell their goods.  They usually have the same stuff every show and may be there as much to buy new stock to sell at smaller train shows or to socialize.

Some sellers are long distance and really want to unload.   Some buy collections and make their money on selling the 1st half of the collection on line or locally.   They are at York to liquidate as much of the balance of inventory as possible.   As you attend more York's you will recognize certain sellers and just walk on by.

On your first York you can just quickly look at a few prices on the table, and make a decision to stay and shop or move on if the prices are normal or high.

Remember time is fleeting and the entire time you are shopping, other people are buying things and taking those purchases to the car.  So you will never see those items on that table.

If you find something you want, try to find other items to bundle with it and make an offer.   You can be aggressive with the offer, but too low can turn off any future discussion.  The longer you look at the item and fondle it, the more you are telling the seller how bad you want it.   Getting rid of bulk for dealers can be as important as recovering the cash to reinvest.

Always be polite and cordial.  You may eventually come back and buy something at full price cause no one else has one.

Mallard4468 posted:

bmoran4 posted:

...If the price is "outrageous", I'll express an interest and ask what is special/unique about their piece to command the asking price. Sometimes that leads to a conversation friendly to negotiations within my price range...

Speaking as someone who is put off by outrageous prices, I really like this approach.  I may try it if I see something I like in this scenario.

I'm always amazed at the number of tableholders who keep dragging the same overpriced stuff back and forth.  But it can be fun to visit their museum.

I like the “no low ball offers” signs these same dealers have. I sell a lot on eBay and like everyone else I hope to get as much as possible from every sale. It takes 2-3 minutes to research what stuff sells for, I do that and price it accordingly. If I bought it right I can sell it for a good price and everyone is happy.

In summary: The many variables in these negotiations and dickering in striking a "bargain" can indeed be described as an "art form", and some folks obviously possess more skills than others in what used to be called "horse trading". 

redjimmy1955 posted:

After I make a polite offer.....if all else fails I resort to the ol'  half nelson and a couple of noogees for good measure...

    Honestly....just make a polite non insulting offer. Some folks do get roiled with an offer.....that stymies the sale!

 

I remember you......

rattler21 posted:

At the eleven times per year show at DuPage the doors open about 9AM.  One of the first through the door was a man I knew bought brass cars and I had two in plain view on the table.  He asked about both and then, "What is the best you can do?"  I replied, "$900 for the table."  He peeled off nine C-notes, I helped him pack the cartons I had brought and we used my four wheel dolly to take the cartons to his car.  I put the dolly in my car, returned to my now empty table, asked the man next to me if he wanted to spread out his items and I went shopping.  John in Lansing, ILL

Great story John. 

joe krasko posted:

My rule is I'll always try to negotiate with a seller...BUT it's important NOT to insult the seller with an outrageous low ball figure...  

I agree I am at the show for fun.Not to make people angry with me.What I will do is wait till the end of a show.I got a wabash gon that way.I almost chicken out.But seeing there was no price on this car.I went for it.I offered $10.00 for the car.He said yes out came a ten.I like to put odd ball loads.

Tinplate Art posted:

In summary: The many variables in these negotiations and dickering in striking a "bargain" can indeed be described as an "art form", and some folks obviously possess more skills than others in what used to be called "horse trading". 

About 30 yrs ago I was sent by IBM to a five day seminar with Chester Karrass, who at the time was chief counsel for Coca Cola.  It was the most spell binding class I ever went to ( i could see 1 day, but 5 appeared to be torture).

If you ever get a chance to pick one of his books or Cd/DVD sets it's well worth the cost.  So many concepts to consider, body language, and tactics it does boil down to an art form if you do it professionally.   Most of thr information applies in everyday life where you have multiple choices, car dealers, furniture, house buying,  etc.

At train shows your selection is much more limited by road name, engine/car type, color, condition, etc.  But the body language and some other aspects still  apply.

In the end, it should be more about both parties getting a good deal and being happy.

Based upon what an item is worth (to yourself) a counter offer is not improper. If the buyer says OK then you may have saved a bit if he says no, you either come up with a higher offer or walk away. This scenario best applies to private collectors and home based dealers selling their stuff. Offers won't work with most of the large train dealers but if you are buying enough, you may have some negotiating power.  If negotiating is done in a respectful manner, I see nothing wrong with it. A good portion of my trains was purchased by offers that were accepted.

Depends on the item and its asking price.  On the vintage brass trains I like to collect, the value truely is in the eye of the beholder.  Prices on those vintage trains are all over the place, from down right bargains to somewhere over the outfield wall.  When it comes to my more expensive live steam in G scale, I always make an offer and bargain from there.  Its much easier for me to do via emails/online chats than in person due to me being autistic and not really good and thinking and talking well in person.  I need more time to process than the average joe.  If the seller is in left field on his price and wont bargain, many times they will get a smart comment when I walk away, like "good luck with that".  I never pay over what I know I can find it else where for.  New items, which are seldom on my radar, I usually pay the sticker price if its within what others are selling that same item for.  I do plenty of research on major items I am looking for.  Smaller items and basic layout supplies I rarely haggle on.      Mike the Aspie

I used to sell at DuPage and mostly priced my items to sell. I had a sign that said all fair offers would be considered but I tried to bring items I knew would sell so I usually wasn't insulted. When buying I look at the desirability of the items and try to decide a fair deal for me and the seller. I don't want to insult or loose out so I will pay full price if it's already fairly priced.

A  Christmas season feel good story concerning train vendor actions. 

Awhile ago a very nice man was robbed by a long term acquaintance  he took in to help.  The theft involved hundreds of cars and dozens of engines.  The man's layout was under construction and most of  the rolling equipment was in boxes.  The thief took the equipment and left the empty boxes as decoys.

Due to legal circumstances, the loss was uninsured and left a senior RRer in the dumps. 

As the word got out, many 0 scaler table holders individually and unbeknownst to one another & without fan fare, stopped by and each person gave him gratis, a decent sized  assortment of replacement gifts.  

The thief is still in jail.

Now,  his many sidings and his sense of friendship are restored.  Do unto others.............

If a item I’m interested is priced low I’ll just buy it rather than insult the seller or make a fool of myself.  Otherwise I had luck by looking the item over and the seller will offer a lower price. Like others said that the best time for a deal is when the seller is starting to pack up.

My last purchase was easy.  I was at the Allentown show and was looking at a NIB MTH Premier L-5.  It was marked $475, and since that was a little high, I decided to walk on.  The guy suddenly blurted out, how about $250.  Job done, and I have a new PRR L-5.   I think since it was 12-13 years old, he got tired of carrying it to shows.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

My last purchase was easy.  I was at the Allentown show and was looking at a NIB MTH Premier L-5.  It was marked $475, and since that was a little high, I decided to walk on.  The guy suddenly blurted out, how about $250.  Job done, and I have a new PRR L-5.   I think since it was 12-13 years old, he got tired of carrying it to shows.

I’m walking exactly one step behind you at the next show. 

I was pretty floored when he said that, I didn't expect it.  I did treat it to a Super-Cap replacement for the battery before I ran it, I figured that 2004 NiCad battery was probably about on it's way out. 

I am a careful buyer and get my items at good prices normally. Often I buy broken or non-operational pieces and repair them myself. I get enjoyment from doing that.

When it comes time to sell, I usually price items at about half of what I paid for them, so I know my prices are low. I will negotiate and accept offers, but if the offer is way below my price, then the answer is no. If the potential buyer gets snarky with me, that is annoying and I won't have anything more to do with them.

As mentioned before, negotiations must be respectful. Never tell the seller that a piece is junk. Just make an offer. Usually around 10% reduction is fair. Sometimes more. Just be nice about it.

I enjoy the wheeling and dealing! 

I mostly attend train shows as a buyer.I mostly sell online but do sell at train shows on occasion. I keep educated and up to date on selling prices as I do a fairly large volume of buying and selling. 

When I'm buying and I see something I want and I feel the price is fair,I go ahead and purchase it. If I feel the price is a few dollars too high,I'll make an offer. I avoid low-balling as I feel it's in bad taste as a buyer and seller. If the seller has a lot of items I'll make an offer (Usually 10-15% off what is marked) for the group and in some cases, make a fair offer for everything on the table. If we don't make a deal, I politely thank them for the chance to make a deal and leave my card if they change their mind. I keep it professional and polite. 

When I'm selling,I price things to move and where I can take 10-20% off if needed to sweeten the deal. I don't discount on items less than $5. 

Ricky

Negotiating ANY price for ANY purchase is really a skill akin to an art form, which an individual may or may not possess. Some folks are more natural "horse traders" than others, and that is the bottom line. The really skilled negotiators have the ability to make offers with a style that is diplomatic and does not offend the seller. Call it folksy or humorous, but their artistic approach engages the seller to see things from the buyer's viewpoint and this skill avoids insulting the seller. It might be a "gift" indeed!

For small ticket items (<$25) if I want it, I just pay it. For everything else since I have been collecting over 40 years there really isn’t anything, I need but what I really enjoy is the fun of a little haggling; sometimes more than the item itself. If a seller allows me the privilege of a little lighthearted, respectful dickering I often am willing to buy multiple items. I always keep it respectful and if I sense that the seller isn’t into it I just politely say thanks and move on. Also I agree with the poster that said if someone (buyer or seller) starts talking about “book value” it is time to move along.

rattler21 posted:

At the eleven times per year show at DuPage the doors open about 9AM.  One of the first through the door was a man I knew bought brass cars and I had two in plain view on the table.  He asked about both and then, "What is the best you can do?"  I replied, "$900 for the table."  He peeled off nine C-notes, I helped him pack the cartons I had brought and we used my four wheel dolly to take the cartons to his car.  I put the dolly in my car, returned to my now empty table, asked the man next to me if he wanted to spread out his items and I went shopping.  John in Lansing, ILL

If he bought without hesitation or negotiation, the one thing you left on your table was money.   

If an item is fairly priced, it will sell. A little dickering is fun. Too much dickering is offensive. Often, asking  "what's the best you can do on several pieces"  will result in a happy seller and a happy buyer. If you are told, "I can't do that," its time to decide how much you really want the item and if you can live with the asking price. A lot will depend upon how long the item is on the table [how many shows] or how current the post is.

I've met a lot of great sellers on this forum...  and a few aren't so great. That's life!

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to all.

I usually do a cursory check of each dealer's prices.

If most of the prices are MSRP or above I move on.

• I can usually get better deals on-line, so I don't waste my time with these guys.
  • There is no challenge in paying retail prices.  One can go to any dealer and pay for everything in a catalog at retail prices.
  • A dealer hasn't earned my money who charges full retail at a show.  If there is anything wrong with the item(s) purchased, the dealer is long gone by the time I discover it at home.  At least LHS dealers will often times take returns on defective items.
• I'm not a collector of rare, mint in box items, so there's no point in looking through their stuff.

If most of the prices are MSRP, I look to see if they have any "SHOW SPECIALS".

• Again, I'm not looking for items that have increased in value over their MSRP.
• I've already paid money to enter the show, I want to buy stuff that will make up for the entrance fee.
  • There is no challenge in paying retail prices.  One can go to any dealer and pay for everything in a catalog at retail prices.
  • A dealer hasn't earned my money who charges full retail at a show.  If there is anything wrong with the item(s) purchased, the dealer is long gone by the time I discover it at home.  At least LHS dealers will often times take returns on defective items.
• If the "SHOW SPECIALS" are good enough, I may just buy them as is.
• If a dealer has a few items at good prices, I will usually offer the dealer a discounted price for buying multiple items.
  • If (s)he goes for it, great!
  • If not, I'll continue shopping until I'm ready to leave.
    • I'll return to the dealer and make my offer again.
      • If (s)he agrees, great!  I (hopefully) got a good enough deal to offset the entrance fee.
      • If (s)he doesn't agree, I leave.  I'm a patient guy.  I don't feel I "HAVE TO" buy anything.

If most of the prices are at or below MSRP, I look for "SHOW SPECIALS" and items I've been wanting to acquire.

• If the "SHOW SPECIALS" are good enough, I may just buy them as is.
• If a dealer has a few items at good prices, I will usually offer the dealer a discounted price for buying multiple items.
  • If (s)he goes for it, great!
  • If not, I'll continue shopping until I'm ready to leave.
    • I'll return to the dealer and make my offer again.
      • If (s)he agrees, great!  I (hopefully) got a good enough deal to offset the entrance fee.
      • If (s)he doesn't agree, I leave.  I'm a patient guy.  I don't feel I "HAVE TO" buy anything.

To me, this hobby is FUN!  I don't mind running Thomas the Tank Engine and his friends, Coca-Cola Bears, Crayola Crayons, nor Mickey & Minnie as my whims change.  Give me a good deal on a car/engine/accessory, and it will find its way onto my layout whether it's markings denote it as KCC, Lionel Lines, or MTHRRC without any kind of known prototype in existence.

Most of my items are priced either at or lower then what you can pay for it on the bay. It takes a lot of research to know what that price is going to be.  From my years of selling 1: Most people want a discount regardless of the asking price. Some get offended when you offer to negotiate. Then say you should have priced it at that price to start with. In this case I just politely point out what I stated above, 1: Most people want a discount regardless of the asking price.  I know what I paid for it and I am almost always willing to negotiate. Multiple purchases get the biggest discounts. Some people will tell me "I can get it on E-bay for X dollars. I try to research every item and in most cases know about what that price is. When they use that tactic I just politely ask them about the price of shipping and the chance of it being damaged in shipping. I do my best to try and make the customer happy but sometimes it just can't be done. If they are polite to me I will extend that back to them. Their is always that one or so special persons who walk by grumbling about every item on the table. There is one guy in particular that I just have to let them know at about every show that there is no possible they will be happy so please get away from my tables so I can make someone else happy. This is a hobby and it is about trying to make a few dollars and knowing that the people that buy from me are happy with their purchase. If they are happy they will return. Kids always get my attention. Sometimes they get the best deals. Give a kid a free item and dad is happy to buy something. It all about the art of the deal. 

Forest.

For me it really has to do with the price of the product and if I think it is fair.  I have no issue paying the asking price if it seems fair.  If it seems high I will offer a lower price than I anticipate paying to leave room to negotiate.  If the seller does not want to move, fine, I will move on. 

As to those who get insulted by an offer, frankly as long as it is presented respectfully, they need to get tougher skin.  The very fact you are putting things up for sale means you are inviting offers, you should be prepared.  Doesn’t mean you have to accept it, but you should anticipate offers lower than what you want to sell for. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

My last purchase was easy.  I was at the Allentown show and was looking at a NIB MTH Premier L-5.  It was marked $475, and since that was a little high, I decided to walk on.  The guy suddenly blurted out, how about $250.  Job done, and I have a new PRR L-5.   I think since it was 12-13 years old, he got tired of carrying it to shows.

And that is a killer buy!

At train shows, most sellers expect offers, some don't and you get to know those guys right away. Most folks don't really want to haul everything they bought back home - it's not cheap to sell at meets, especially multiday meetings like York. So especially towards the end of the meet (anytime Saturday at York), some smokin deals can be had. Sometimes its better to let the seller make a crazy offer instead of you. How do you tell? That's hard - but if it is sellers that you know, you can probably tell when it's time to strike.

And to other's points, sometimes it's an insult to dicker on real low cost items.

A good story I heard - a guy had a caboose on his table, decent shape, for $8. Guy came up and offered him $2. Seller took the caboose, placed it on the floor, and smashed it to bits with a hard stomp. Strong message to buyer.

Jim

I recently put 3 Plasticville churches on my table at a show. One good one and 2 for parts needed, 

I marked them - ALL THREE FREE. They sat there for 3 hours and no one even looked at them. 

Sometimes it seems like you can't even give train stuff away.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned dealing with Ebay sellers.  More recently, I have made offers on items that did not have a "Make Best Offer" option.  I've gotten a few deals that I was happy with.  Sometimes an item will have been listed for a long time.  Maybe the seller simply want to get rid of it at that point, so I usually go the the "Items Ending Soonest".  

If this were a psychology class I think we could assign buyers to four distinct groups.

I.  Grandma and grandpa(or another relative or friend) who is looking for a present for a friend or relative.  They know 'Billy' has a 'Lionel Train' and may ask the seller 'What does he need?"  Generally will find a cute car, buy it and thank the seller.  Also is 'Joe' who will buy almost anything with JOE on it.  A warehouse building, service station, coffee cup, covered hopper - anything with Joe on it is bought..

II.  Modelers who are at a train meet/swap show for the social aspect and if they see something they don't need but find interesting will make a low ball offer.  If the offer is accepted they will either complete the purchase or walk away with a 'I'll be back before I leave" comment. Others block sellers' tables without giving consideration to the other buyers.  

III. Modelers who know some components or cars are not often For Sale and will buy those components knowing there is a high probability the modeler will need them within the next few years.  Atlas, GGD and Weaver trucks fall into this category of components.  3rd Rail chlorine tank cars, some Atlas billboard reefers, R-O-W ABA units are in this category.  10% difference in price either way will not keep the modeler from leaving with the item.

IV.  Modelers who have a shopping list, either on paper or in their mind.  When they see it on a table they reach for their wallet.  The seller and buyer may negotiate a little, but the buyer knows he is going to leave with the item.

John in Lansing, ILL

Dan Padova posted:

I don't believe anyone has mentioned dealing with Ebay sellers.  More recently, I have made offers on items that did not have a "Make Best Offer" option.  I've gotten a few deals that I was happy with.  Sometimes an item will have been listed for a long time.  Maybe the seller simply want to get rid of it at that point, so I usually go the the "Items Ending Soonest".  

Dan,  This may be the best message on the Forum.  Every For Sale listing was composed prior to you reading it.  However, things change.  You have no way of knowing what has changed in the seller's life.  It doesn't cost anything to make an offer so why not do so?  If nothing else, a reasonable offer may start serious negotiations. If you don't want to seriously negotiate, why are you wasting your time and the seller's time?   John in Lansing, ILL

Freight Train Jim posted:

I recently put 3 Plasticville churches on my table at a show. One good one and 2 for parts needed, 

I marked them - ALL THREE FREE. They sat there for 3 hours and no one even looked at them. 

Sometimes it seems like you can't even give train stuff away.

You can say that again Jim..... Some of the popular late model steamers sell but most other items just sit.

I have been driving some hard bargains to off set the problem. Sometimes I loose the deal.

I don't sweat it and I move on. Nick

Dan Padova posted:

I don't believe anyone has mentioned dealing with Ebay sellers.  More recently, I have made offers on items that did not have a "Make Best Offer" option.  I've gotten a few deals that I was happy with.  Sometimes an item will have been listed for a long time.  Maybe the seller simply want to get rid of it at that point, so I usually go the the "Items Ending Soonest".  

Dan - a worthwhile tactic. I've done that a few times with success, the seller will just readjust the selling price for me. So is there an advanced search for 'time that auction has been listed' - since there is an option to automatically relist, it may be months.

Jim

Whether I'm buying or selling the lower priced rolling stock and scenery items usually sell at the sticker price. The higher price items like engines are usually negotiated. I try to price low as I am never selling my old items for profit, just looking to recover some cost and make room but I always leave a little wiggle room for negotiation.

When A customer makes a RIDICULOUS LOW OFFER, I just say thanks your not in my price range and move on. most of the time these low ballers just move on

While at train shows, just showing an interest in an item, the seller usually says he can do better. I usually don't have to make an offer first. 

On ebay, I have found items where the price is good but the shipping is out-of-whack. I'll contact the seller with an agreement to buy if the shipping is lowered and I include my zip code. It has worked a couple times.

Charlie

It's simple, if the price is so high that I would have "low ball" him to get into my accepted range, then I don't even bother no matter what.  I try to bundle as others have suggested, and usually if I don't make my own offer, I'll just ask, is $XX the best you can do and usually they will come down a couple of bucks.  By that point I have usually decided on purchasing or not already. I hate it when there is no price and the person says make me an offer.  No matter what you say, he will cut you down, so many  times I will just walk away, I've even told guys, if you don't know what you want to ask for it why should I make you an offer....

Freight Train Jim posted:

I recently put 3 Plasticville churches on my table at a show. One good one and 2 for parts needed, 

I marked them - ALL THREE FREE. They sat there for 3 hours and no one even looked at them. 

Sometimes it seems like you can't even give train stuff away.

You are usually better off putting a $1.00 price on the item or items.  This indicates that the item(s) have a value.  

Many people pass on free stuff because they think it is worthless.  I don't think this way and will take free stuff in a flash if only to try to resell or donate it if I don't need it.   However, I have observed that most people have an aversion to taking free stuff.  

A classic example of this aversion is putting out "free" OGR magazines at our club's show.  The stack of magazines just sits.  However, if we price 5 magazines for a $1 they fly off the table.   It is really, really crazy.  

NH Joe

cpowell posted:

While at train shows, just showing an interest in an item, the seller usually says he can do better. I usually don't have to make an offer first. 

On ebay, I have found items where the price is good but the shipping is out-of-whack. I'll contact the seller with an agreement to buy if the shipping is lowered and I include my zip code. It has worked a couple times.

Charlie

This happens to me most of the time at a swap meet.....I don’t even have to open my mouth....they usually start dropping on their own...I just follow them down to see how low  the elevator will go...sometimes they’re married to stuff, other times they’re dumping it.....you just never know....there’s no harm in taking their temperature and seeing where it goes from there...be polite, that’s the easiest way to a dialogue....if they don’t want to deal, I thank them for their time, wish them the best, shake their hand and move on.....Pat

palallin posted:

Mallard4468 posted:

I'm always amazed at the number of tableholders who keep dragging the same overpriced stuff back and forth.  But it can be fun to visit their museum.

You win the internet today!

This is how I feel walking through all the non dealer halls every York...

Jim Waterman posted:

A good story I heard - a guy had a caboose on his table, decent shape, for $8. Guy came up and offered him $2. Seller took the caboose, placed it on the floor, and smashed it to bits with a hard stomp. Strong message to buyer.

 

Almost would have been interesting to low ball him on other things to see what else he was willing to smash on the "Gallagher" show.

H1000 posted:

Jim Waterman posted:

A good story I heard - a guy had a caboose on his table, decent shape, for $8. Guy came up and offered him $2. Seller took the caboose, placed it on the floor, and smashed it to bits with a hard stomp. Strong message to buyer.

 

Almost would have been interesting to low ball him on other things to see what else he was willing to smash on the "Gallagher" show.

I agree.  It seems very silly to get that agitated over a low ball offer.  The smarter thing to have done would have been to just say "No" and then tend to another customer.  I hope that seller was inundated with many more low ball offers!

"Strong message to buyer."  The strong message I would have received would have been to avoid that seller no matter what else (s)he was selling.  Childish displays should not get rewarded in any way.