Negotiating Prices at Train Shows

Dan Padova posted:

Two Beers, Three Rails posted:

Although not directly tied to negotiating,  I haven't seen one of the main rules of train shows addressed yet.... if you see something you always wanted and you buy it, a seller two aisles over will have it in better condition for $30 less.  If you take the opposite approach and decide to  peruse all the tables before going back and making offers, your dream item will have been the only one of its kind there and it will be sold by the time you get back to it.  Danged if you do, danged if you don't!

Been there, done that.  At Allentown's First Frost meet a seller had bags of O54 tubular track.  Complete circle for $25.00.  he also had some O72 Lionel switch tracks for $20.00/ea.  

My first trip around the hall wasn't completed, so I decided to come back to his table.  When I arrived, he had only one bag of track and another guy was buying the switch tracks.....UG !

Of course I've also done that - last one was a 622 bell ringer, looked to be in good shape, only $25 - set it down, walked around to the other side of the table, guy came along and immediately bought it!!! Rule #1, if you like it, PICK IT UP and HANG ON TO IT while you peruse the rest of the table!

Along those same lines, in a fairly crowed show, I squeezed in picked up a train looked it over front to back all the while a guy just waiting off my shoulder to look around, but I was not to be rushed. I finally put it back and as I left he picked it up and bought it. I laugh because he must have been thinking- don't you buy that! don't you dare! LOL. 

Mike23 posted:

Along those same lines, in a fairly crowed show, I squeezed in picked up a train looked it over front to back all the while a guy just waiting off my shoulder to look around, but I was not to be rushed. I finally put it back and as I left he picked it up and bought it. I laugh because he must have been thinking- don't you buy that! don't you dare! LOL. 

That might have been me …..

What shows?

@rattler21 posted:

What have you bought and how did you negotiate during social distancing using techniques mentioned in this thread?  John

I handle the distance problem by arrangement of my basement.  My workbench is on the side opposite the door.  Then comes the test track.  Far side is more than six feet from my work chair.  When I'm expecting a guest, I'll put a chair on the far side of the test loops.  Then I leave the cellar door unlocked and receive my guest there rather than through the house, avoiding contact with my wife - who likes privacy and that's helpful in this case.

I recent had a visit from one of my eBay customers who lives near and likes to pay in cash.  We had a pleasant half hour and didn't get within eight feet of each other.

I've haven't done negotiations this way, but it would be no problem.

I've missed things that I ws interested in, but thinking I could come back after I look around.    I have told myself I guess I didn't really want it afterall.

On a separate note, trains shows used to be called "flea markets" and I still have that mentality.   By that I mean, I almost always make an offer to the seller.    Unless it is something I really want, but I have so much already, that there are very few items that I really want anymore.   Most stuff is more in the category of "I like that at xx $" so I make an offer.    Then the seller can say yes or no.   Or counter offer.    It is part of the fun of a show and buying/selling face to face.    For the last several years I have had tables at some of the shows I attend, and I accept the idea of offers from buyers that approach me.    And truthfully I very seldom say no to an offer unless it is totally ridiculous.     My thinking is that I don't want to have carry this stuff back home after I have decided to part with it.

@rattler21 posted:

What have you bought and how did you negotiate during social distancing using techniques mentioned in this thread?  John

In the model train world of 1/48 scale 6 foot is 1.5 inches.   At last Wednesday's lunch with other model railroaders we all stayed more then 6 scale feet from each other. I was about 72 scale feet from the other O gauger on my right and 130 scale feet from the HO modeler to my left and 63 scale feet from the G scale modeler on the other side of the table.

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

I handle the distance problem by arrangement of my basement.  My workbench is on the side opposite the door.  Then comes the test track.  Far side is more than six feet from my work chair.  When I'm expecting a guest, I'll put a chair on the far side of the test loops.  Then I leave the cellar door unlocked and receive my guest there rather than through the house, avoiding contact with my wife - who likes privacy and that's helpful in this case.

I recent had a visit from one of my eBay customers who lives near and likes to pay in cash.  We had a pleasant half hour and didn't get within eight feet of each other.

I've haven't done negotiations this way, but it would be no problem.

Given the current situation this is totally understandable. But if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic... this sounds like how the mafia would negotiate model train deals.

@prrjim posted:

I've missed things that I ws interested in, but thinking I could come back after I look around.    I have told myself I guess I didn't really want it afterall.

On a separate note, trains shows used to be called "flea markets" and I still have that mentality.   By that I mean, I almost always make an offer to the seller.    Unless it is something I really want, but I have so much already, that there are very few items that I really want anymore.   Most stuff is more in the category of "I like that at xx $" so I make an offer.    Then the seller can say yes or no.   Or counter offer.    It is part of the fun of a show and buying/selling face to face.    For the last several years I have had tables at some of the shows I attend, and I accept the idea of offers from buyers that approach me.    And truthfully I very seldom say no to an offer unless it is totally ridiculous.     My thinking is that I don't want to have carry this stuff back home after I have decided to part with it.

Given the current health situation, the flea market could be the thing for train collectors.  I'm the meet coordinator for New England TCA, and I doubt that we'll be able to have our usual indoor setup for our next scheduled meet on 9/27.  So I'm promoting the idea of having an outdoor old-fashioned flea market type meet while the weather (Boston area) is still warm earlier in September.  We could have a large tent with open sides so much less risk pf infection in an area with good air circulation.

This won't satisfy those dealers who look for lots of non-TCA visitors who buy the expensive new stuff, but it would provide a good venue for those of us who like to buy/trade/sell old train stuff.

If the virus thing is still a big deal next spring, we can have a summer season, say May to September,  instead of fall/winter/spring

@aussteve posted:

I remember reading about it in Classic Toy Train magazine I think.  He sold all of his trains and only wanted to collect one of a kind or exceptionally rare items.  If I remember he paid $35,000 for the 700e set.  They went to a hospital and xrayed the box to prove what was inside, the car locations, size, etc.

He had two sets.  The other was a B6 switcher set I think.  It was mint but the set box was no longer sealed.  He said he paid $15,000 for that set.

It's been several years since I read that, but that's what remembered.  There are other rare trains to be sure, but he has two of the rarest commercially available stuff I've ever heard of.

Now I'm wondering if there is any zinc pest those boxes

It doesn't really matter. He won't open them to find out. He clearly bought them for a combination of two reasons- as an investment, and for bragging rights. However, if you are buying strictly as an investment, there are probably many other areas that will do as well or even much better than trains. 

I've only done train shows as a buyer. I can imagine that being a seller and dealing with some of the buyers could be trying. I always try to be polite.

Back in the 80s, when I started collecting postwar, prices were still climbing, and there was no Ebay. You had a Greenberg price guide and tried not to be obvious about using it. As a newbie, there was a lot of risk in buying expensive items, everyone was looking for rare variations, and fakes were starting to come on the market. That's when the TCA and York were important for honest dealing. Often in a hurry to buy something before it disappeared, I didn't take enough time to look it over. Ironically, that is where Ebay is an improvement. The sellers post a lot of pictures and you can actually get a better idea of the condition than you would examining a piece in a crowded show.

Since coming back to the hobby and switching to tinplate, I am in no rush to buy. If I go to a train show, its to soak up the atmosphere, learn something about tinplate, and buy parts or a few inexpensive pieces specifically for my small layout. I'm enjoying restoring the old stuff, and no longer really think of myself as a collector. Ebay alone has turned train shows from a sellers market to a buyers market.

For parts, I don't negotiate- does anyone? For trains, I prefer the smaller, non-regular dealers who have a lot of variety. They are usually trying to thin out their collection and have the best prices. If I pick up a piece to look at it, more often than not the seller lowers the price without asking. I always have a list and some general idea of what I will pay. If it's an essential piece, I will get it if the price is fair. If it is a wish list piece, I'll haggle more and usually pass. By the time I'm ready to leave, I'll know if I really want it.

Still, I probably make at least one purchase of a piece I didn't even know I wanted. That is the fun of a train show.

@MartyE posted:

My simple negotiating tactic...

Step 1  "Is this the best you can do?" If yes got to step 3. If no go to step 2.

Step 2  "What is the best you can do?" Find out his offer and go to step 3.

Step 3 Decide whether I feel it's fair and buy or walk away.

 

No badgering.  No comments if I think the price is too high.  Just a simple question and a decision.  I will sometimes see if they can do better by bundling by just asking.

This is the exact advice I was given by one of our outside sales guys almost 30 years ago. 

I think they teach it at seminars for professional sales people as a way to understand their customers.  "Is this the best you can do?" is about the least insulting, most empowering (for the seller) way to allow the SELLER to open negotiations if he or she wants to.  It's not aggressive, it indicates the buyer's desire to buy and forces the seller to ask themselves the question of whether they want to negotiate, and doesn't bring with it the baggage of implied pressure form the buyer to start negotiations.

There's been studies on this phrase, and how much this phrase can save a frequent user over his or her lifetime.  It's staggering, really.  I use it a TON myself, and I find that around 20 or 30 percent of the time, I can arrive at a price that was lower than originally advertised for a product or service.  Not just talking trains...I'm talking insurance, clothing, lawn care services, even medical bills. Anything that the seller is in a position of authority, I try it.

As both a buyer and a seller I would say that a reasonable offer , say 10-15% discount from the listed price will generally get you a sale or at the very least a counter-offer. 

Like LIRR, I'm both a buyer and seller at shows and on eBay, and I'm pretty well known at local shows.  I'll see an item priced at say $80 that I've seen going on eBay at 50 60.  I'll just say to the seller that I believe I can get it for $60.  Sometimes I'll get it for that, or maybe he'll respond with $65 or 70 and I'll buy.  One does have to take account of shipping that could be $8 to $15, for example.

I find it works to say what I think I can get it for in a conversational tone.  Maybe that leads to a purchase , or maybe I get pleasant conversation, which is part of the pleasure of shows as compared with computers.

At times I'll take a table.  Then I'll price most things that I'm selling at the high end of the range of recent sales on eBay.  I can give  20 to 25 % and get as much as I might with an eBay buy-it-now/best offer.  eBay plus Paypal costs 13 %, and there is the time it takes for packing all those odd shaped items for minimum mailing cost.

BTW, that pricing method is quite competitive with typical show prices.

Always "make an offer he can't refuse".

Here's some other advice, based on timing. Wait until the train show is about and hour or two from closing, crowds thinning, and tableholders (SOME! Not all) start packing up and are grumbling about how few people bought anything. This used to start happening about noon on Saturday's at the TCA York Meet. If you spy something you want but (1) can find at another table, or (2) can wait and find at another train show or on online, you simply make a CASH offer, sometimes low, take or leave it. Sometimes folks will because they'd rather have the cash and fewer things to pack up; sometimes the dealer comes back with another price and you quickly negotiate a compromise price--or not if you do not want to pay anything more than you've offered; and sometimes the dealers leave it, because they just can't come down on a price. And that's OK, no one should be offended when your offer is rejected or that someone made an offer. After all, it's a train show, a swap meet, and flea market for train lovers.