New design for 12X15 room

Tim -

It is interesting that you picked up on wanting to do scratch building and scenery and needed space to do that, and that is the problem with this layout and the reason I am going to dismantle it.  When I built it, I wanted as much track as I could get on the table.  It has been fun to run this layout with all the route possibilities, but after 5 years I knew I missed being able to do scenery and have places to put buildings because there were always tracks in the way.  I had trouble coming up with any scenery flow on this design.

Now that I've had my fun with it, I am going back to the oval, leaving the yard behind the door in place, and accessing it by a single track running along the rear wall.  There will also be room to walk back there now so that I can observe the trains as they come down the straight run.  I am only a few days away from starting to dismantle it, but the ideas really began to flow as soon as I modified the track plan.  Here's my (ever changing) plan for the new build:

(I did my drawing in Visio, which is why I have to PDF it to put it on here.  It won't appear in the text of this message, unfortunately, but it's down below.)  I am glad you are planning so well in advance.  I have found that spending a lot of time up front will create a layout where you will be confident in the design, and the rest will flow easier.  Even after I'm pretty sure this is the design I will use, I have drawn up 3 more alternates, so I'll choose when I start modifying the bare table ... I even torn up some track on the old layout and moved it around or modified it a year after I put it down, because I suddenly realized a new path could be made with more features.

You are going to have a great setup.  Let us see the progress occasionally.  Have fun!

Mike 

PS - For some reason, there's a photo of a night time scene from my first layout in there.  I can't seem to get rid of it in the message part, but if you click on it, it says "no photo found".  And it's not in my photo attachment list.  I will never figure these ---- computers out.

Mike I enjoyed your photos. I love to build and create things so I feel excited for your tear down and redesign. Especially given your fairly meticulous new plan. Being my first layout I'm sure I will miss a thousand things, but that's the journey. You really got me thinking with that yard behind the door of yours. It looks small in the pictures but seeing the rolling stock shows what it can hold.

I like the shelves below the fascia too. I will be using a skirt with velcro. Household still needs the storage under the benchwork.

After Frank53 showed me the icehouse behind his door and MDMikey mentioned squeezing a small yard in behind the door of his room that's shaped similar to mine, it got me thinking. So I measured and have 16.5" behind the door when it's opened perpendicular. So back to RR Track I went. I started with a 4 track yard and it fit but not without greatly disturbing the rest of the layout. Previously I had one siding in that space. Maybe the best idea was a single track that can be hidden by flats and or mountains yet still there is room for an industry and siding. It amounts to about 12ft of hidden track that I could use to stage one or two trains end to end.

Tim -

One more quick thought - have you ever tried to bend and form the Gargraves track?  If not, get a few extra pieces to practice with.  I am pretty mechanically inclined, and I had a difficult time getting a smooth curve, and ruined several pieces.  The ties will drift in both directions when you're making the bends and have to be respaced as you go along.  Maybe some others can offer tips on how to bend it, but there is definitely an art to doing it.  Didn't take much to convince me to buy the preformed curves and give up the bending trials waste.

Mike

Another modification (somebody stop me :-)). Here I've cleared 16" on the left wall and used it for operational industry with a runaround. Track colors are building phases, green then blue then magenta. The yellow dots are 5" non-IC recessed light fixtures I plan to install. I mocked up some in the garage at 4ft high and 5ft apart and they give great coverage even with CFLs. Way better than the single off center 2-bulb fixture that's in the room now. And they were only $6.99 each at Menards.

I'm not going to worry too much about the scenery "plan" it will just have to come along as I go along. I just put the river in there on a whim. I know I want one but not sure where. Only a few choices as I can see it now.

Hi Folks,

It's been a while but I have been making some progress. Last night I finished installing the final deck pieces on top of the benchwork. Here are some photos.

Where the decking is straight and perpendicular to the joists, I mounted the joists to be flush with the edge of the decking so better support a planned 1/8" hardboard fascia.

The decking is not attached to the joist yet, it's just laying on top. The track layout plan has no grades, but I do wish to put grades in the terrain. And this is where I'm having a creative block and need some help thinking through this. Do I really  need to put risers in? Let's say I want to have a river, culvert, valley or whatever scene. The typical Westcott lgirder model is to elevate the decking up from the joists on "stilts" if you will or risers. I've looked at some other layout photos and on some it looks they've elevated the entire layout above the joists while only using the extra available relief in a few places. To me this seems like a lot of work and extra materials especially if I only want to get relief in one area that is deeper that the support structure. Is there a better way? Does what I'm saying make sense?

The approach that you mentioned works. Not as much work as you think. Check out page 4 in this thread. Dropping the fascia can give the appearance of elevation and in other areas the risers can provide a rock wall or such for a similar appearance while keeping the grades relatively flat. Higher in back, lower in front creates a visual rise more than the actual rise.

I should mention too that the use of risers is mostly for those doing a cookie-cutter style layout with grades, etc. Using risers keeps your layout completely open underneath and makes changes and troubleshooting easier, at least IMHO. Some will say it saves money too because it uses less lumber.

Congrats on the progress.  I used Aileen's Tacky Glue on my last layout for gluing the WS foam roadbed down to pink extruded foam.  It held great and the best part was I was able to pull up all of the roadbed for reuse with the greatest of ease.

On removing the black, if I'm not mistaken on the Black Diamond Railway videos he uses a fiberglass grinding wheel on his Dremel (on ScaleTrax).

I have to ask, why remove the black? Doesn't the DCS signal pass through the black or something? I must have missed that when I watched the videos. Seems like a lot of work.

I like the plan.....nice work.

Looks great, you'll be running in no time!

Could you please e-mail me the directions for bending the track? Interested to see his recommendation.  There are a lot of ways to do it and I think learning several only helps.

Thank you!

86TA355SR I don't see an email address in your profile.

It's really taking shape. Great work. Could you upload the current rrtrack layout file?

Thanks

Here it is...

Here's an excerpt from Dennis Bracey email to me...

"Tim, as I recall, I learned this method from OGR’s Jim Barrett.  The subject has been described by me in past threads on the forum but I have not posted the pictures.  There is another OGR member who’s name slips my mind at the moment who also uses this method and posts about it from time to time when the subject comes up. "

 Since I can't find the other posts and in the interests of sharing, Here are the flex track laying instructions and photos I got from Dennis.... (keep in mind I used Pan Head screws and did not countersink the holes since I will be removing the screws at ballast time. Dennis told me he colored his screws with a sharpie to hide them. Also I bought my screws at ACE hardware for about $3.70 for a box of 100.

Laying Gargraves Track – bend as you go method

Tools & supplies you will need:

1. Small putty knife
2. Black “Sharpie” pen
3. Electric drill with #4 counter sink bit.
4. Electric screw driver with #1 Phillips bit.
5. #4 x 3/4 flat head screws (lots of them)*
6. Small hammer
7. Needle nose pliers
8. Dremel with fiber cutting wheel, or similar tool
9. Various radii templates made out of plywood
10. Or a long metal ruler with holes drilled to various radii you need to make curve lines.
11. Your choice of road bed.  I use Midwest Cork.
12.  * You can buy screws by the 100 here:  http://www.mcmaster.com/#wood-...d-lag-screws/=76pz7e

Laying Gargraves Track – Part 2

Roadbed:

Choose your roadbed and mark a centerline on it with a “Sharpie” pen.  You will follow this line with the center rail as you lay the track.  I use Midwest Cork roadbed and tack it down with an electric stapler using brads.  It is easy to curve. Some folks glue it down.   See photos labeled:  Cork examples 1 – 4.

Laying the track:

Photo 001  Shows a turnout with a new piece of track shoved into the leg and two screws holding it in place and a third screw 6 ties out where the curve is going to start.  How far out that screw is will depend, of course, on how sharp your curve is.  Now, with both hands gradually bend the track beyond that screw until it reaches the centerline again, hold it with one hand and drill a countersink hole in the tie and put in another screw.  Realign all the ties as you go along.

Photo 002   Shows this next screw in place and the ties realigned.  Notice that the center and upper rail in the photo have already begun to pull away from the turnout where first attached it.  Don’t worry about this now, you will fix this later.

Photo 003   Shows this process continued adding screws as you go.

Photo 004   Shows the two rails back at the switch have pulled even further out of the turnout.

Photo 005   Shows the leading end of the track and how uneven the lengths have become.   

Photo 006   Shows that you should now take a hammer and a block of wood to protect the rail ends and tap these short rails snug to the turnout where we started.

Photo 007   Shows all three rails now snug.

Photo 008   Shows we ended up with the problem of the leading edge’s rails all different lengths.  We will now cut the two long ones off with a Dremel and large fiber wheel (or similar tool) to match the short rail.  First push the ties up tight together near the short rail to hold them.  (I should have added another screw there too before I snapped this photo as the track is not quite centered yet.)

Photo 009   Shows a completed cut off actually a track or two farther up.  Note, if you are still on a curve, don’t put in that last screw shown in the photo yet.

Photo 010   Shows a longer view of this project with more than one joint.

Making good joints on a curve:

Some folks think this is the hardest part.   The secret is to join the two pieces and not put in the first pair of screws at the joint of either piece yet.  Put in the screws in the ties that are farther out to hold the track properly on the curve centerline until you are about a third or half way around the curve with your next piece of track.   Then go back to the joint and with the butt of your hammer handle, push on the side of the ties at that joint until the center rail is over your line, hold it there with one hand and do you countersink and screw insertion at this time.

Thanks Tim. I have a slightly larger space but like the overall layout you've designed. 

The Gargraves bending should be a 'sticky' for reference!

Great info!

Thanks,

I never seen this info before but Thats exactly how I did mine eh.

Thanks for posting that Tim, it avoids others having to ask for it too. I've saved it as a file for future reference. I might even try being to O54 and save myself some money. I guess my only concern is the noise transfer through the screws.

Just use the Permalink icon and bookmark it. Or copy/paste it into a new email and send it to yourself. Or do like I did and do both.

Tim,

Good work on raising the layout. You may want to have a few one- or two-step stools on hand for shorter people. My layout's lower level is just above 48", the second level is 57", and the third (the "L" train) is at 65", and it has worked out fine. I have 9" and 16" high viewing platforms and several 'portable' stools.

As far as the relays (and as I wrote in my reply email to you), take a look at this thread also for an alternative to the homemade relay modules.

Thank you for sharing your progress.

Alex

Thanks Alex, This was very helpful. I ordered two of those already. I'm wondering how you connected to the pins on the control side of the module?

Tim, are the pre-drilled holes in the cleats on the risers (photo 5) drilled at an angle? Is that so you can use longer screws to get more bite? Doesn't that tend to pull the riser sideways a bit? Or nothing to worry about? In that photo, it looks like the screw will hit the sub-roadbed joint.

Tim....I missed this thread somehow so started from the beginning and just finished reading the entire thread.  You are really providing a great how to for the forum members and I have really enjoyed the updates....thanks!

Alan

Dave,

Yes the holes are drilled at a slight angle. Initially the reason was so I could get my electric screwdriver in there easier to set the screws. But it also helps prevent the screw tips from punching though the surface and as you point out it does give more bite. As far as the screw hitting the joint seams, In another place on the layout I just pushed the riser over while screwing it in to clear the seam. In some places I am thinking about making a plate joint for the entire seam. Then the riser won't necessarily have to be under and bridging the seam.

Thanks Alan, I really appreciate your encouragement. The forum gives me so much. And the members are all great. Every member I have ever emailed has been responsive and helpful. A real community I'm happy to be a part of.

Tim

Thanks, Tim.

I'm thinking of making a small but needed track layout change. This allows me to enter and exit the yard from the inner area of the layout instead of the outer loop. This way I can run a train constantly outside while treating the inner area sort of like a branch line servicing the sidings on the center peninsula and and bottom section (in the drawing) and work the yard and if I need to use some of the inner section main, I won't be interrupting the outer loop. The specific changes are in red. The outer loop is green (not being changed). I also thought a small service area off one of the yard tracks might be nice. It might be better off of the yard lead but not possible. Any thoughts?

Tim,

I picked up on your thread from the link in your comment on Trainman's Continuing Saga of the P&PRR thread.  I will have a 12 x 12 room at my disposal once our grown daughters move out, not much smaller than what you have to work with.  Glancing at the track plans, it seems you are working along the same lines I have in mind.  I am going to go through this and see what you have been doing.  Thank you for posting your link!

Thanks for that vote of confidence Laidoffsick. It's been months and I'm still happy with those design changes. The walkways are tight for a guy my size, but I get long runs, running in either direction, isolation of functional areas of the layout, and plenty of space for a noob to do scenery. I haven't updated my thread in some time now, but I have been working on the layout. I have been designing and building my control panel system. A single master control panel and two satellite panels. The wiring allows me to alter the state of a power block and the led panel indicator will be correctly updated on all three panels. Same for turnouts. I am using relays for blocks and tortoises for turnouts. Cat5 for all the panel to panel connections. It's a messy endeavor for a rookie, but it is working. Since I'm not an electrical professional, every time a "homeowner project" pulls me away, it's a steep learning curve recovery for me to get back to the wiring. I've been documenting the wiring in great detail and that has been tremendously helpful. But as I've said before, this was never going to be a race for me, just a relaxing time-sink that I enjoy.

Tim,

Having just seen this thread today, I have only skimmed through it, but I have some initial questions and comments.

1. I see you are using GarGraves track.  Are you using their switches or Ross as many people recommend?  I didn't notice if you comment on that.

2. How is the track on cork on plywood for noise, or aren't you concerned.  I don't mind the track noise, but don't want it overpowering the sound systems in my engines.

3. I really like your foam mock up.  I built one out of modelers putty many years ago when planning my last layout that materialized to near completion.  I moved it twice, then discarded it.  Since I have had too many family interests to take up my time.  Now that our girls are grown, I am in the beginning of thinking of building another layout.

4. While I have worked in electronics for 38 years, I do not like wiring, etc.  I like to keep things very simple.  I can realize how daunting a task it can be for someone without the background.  I hate dropping something at work for any time, because I have trouble figuring out where I was and where I need to be going.

5. Thanks for your detailed descriptions and photos.  I will take time in the next few days to look them over more closely.

I am using Ross turnouts. I really like them. I bought some on the bay, a few from the LHS, several were from the forum. They are simply awesome. Some used ones were obviously very old. My designing used lots of #4s and O54/O72s and I can see there were some design changes over the years. Or perhaps some were modified by their previous owners. Some advice if you buy used, it can be hard to tell from pics if a leg of a turnout had been shortened as one or two I bought had been. But none of the mods affected me. I've never seen a Gargraves switch so I can't comment on them.

I'm not using cork for the roadbed. I'm using the Woodland Scenics brand of flex bed. Note that I started with a bunch of Lionel FastTrack which is probably about as loud as it can get. The flexbed is the only thing I've used so no comment on cork. I chose it for three reasons. I truly believed it would be the quietest. I did a 10 foot test section and with the screws it was still quite loud, but without the screws, Wow what a difference! I got a decent deal on it. And lastly, recognizing my rookie status, I feared I would be “adjusting” the track a lot (very true). The flexible bed seemed to me to be the most cooperative/reuseable as I had to adjust the track here and there and everywhere and indeed it was. There are hundreds of screws holding the track to the table which mechanically transfers the sound to the table. When I pull the screws out the track will be a lot quieter but I won’t do that untiI I ballast the track.

The foam mock-up was an excuse to build my own foam cutter. J In the end it was way too soon in the process, I still think it could be useful when the time comes. I now have track, turnouts, tortoises and almost done with the control panels. I figure a few months or more of running trains and operations, then it will be safe to start landscaping.

Electronics is yet another rabbit hole I could get lost in. I learned everything I needed from forum members. If you can search for the right thing, there’s practically nothing new under the sun. I requested and got an Arduino starter kit for my 50th BDay in June. Down the road, I plan to try and use it to emulate a signaling system on my layout.

In the meantime, I read the forum nearly everyday. A constant source of inspiration.

Tim,

Yes, so many folks say good things about the Ross turnouts, I think I will go that route.  I just have a loop of GarGraves around the ceiling of a small basement room.  I like the GarGraves.  I will not be using as many turnouts as you because I want some more room for scenery and I want to add an On30 logging branch up a mountain which will be on HO scale track.  I guess after 45 years I still have a thing for 2 rail.  

The foam sounds like a good idea.  I have never tried it.  When I first started looking at O Gauge about 3 years ago, I was surprised the track was usually fastened down with screws.  I was used to small nails or spikes in my HO days that only penetrated the cork and into the Homasote a bit.  Never into the wood.  I realized the screws would transfer vibration to the wood sounding board.  I like the idea of pulling the screws once ballasting was done.  That is what I did with the HO nails.

I wish you well on further construction, and will be watching for updates.  Keep up with the house and yard chores in the meantime.  

- Hi Tim - 

      I have review your drawings and photos & you have a lot going for you with the objectives. I see no major issues but if you have to make a change during construction, then do it, do not lock yourself into the plans.

Best of Luck & Have Fun.

Tim,

Great job on the layout! Things are coming along nicely. I like your changes, and I think you'll have fun operating, too. Keep the updates coming! 

Andy

First rate job!!

Looking good, Tim.

Control panel progress,

I've got one satellite panel and it's companion switches and LEDs wired up. It's much much tidier and modular. Much easier to troubleshoot. Here are some pics....

Satellite panel 1. The black tip toggle is a block, the rest are turnouts. The crossover is wired to a single toggle but an LED for each turnout.

The inside of panel one. The face hinges out and a perpendicular panel is pocket hole screwed to the face frame and holds all the terminal strips.

A closeup shot of the terminal strip connections and labeling.

A primary panel partner toggles and LEDs. Here you can see the empty space on the left where I plan to put master switches and panel meters.

The inside of the primary panel box. very bottom two rows are 12VDC for the tortoises. The next two rows are 5VDC for the block relays.

Finally the backside of the primary panel.Still much to do but this all works very well so far.

Thanks for reading.

Tim

I really like the control panels!   How do you find wiring up with CAT5 Cables and the same OR/GN/BL/BN  wire pairs all the time?   do you find it hard to keep track of?

I'm thinking about doing the same thing because I have BOXES of the stuff in my basement.