NEW FRA EMERGENCY ORDER

What???? You don't think that trains should "Honk" at crossings?????

In the ongoing discussion regarding hand brakes (which are nothing more than armstrong application of the same braking mechanism activated by the air system) it's important to consider the type of braking equipment on the cars being discussed.  WABCO and Elcon National (to name just a couple) have been suppliers of braking equipment for rail car manufacturers for many years.  A very common version of each supplier includes hand brake equipment that applies the brake on only one truck of the two trucks on each car.  These systems have one truck-mounted brake cylinder on each truck versus the traditional body-mounted brake cylinder that applies brakes by air simultaneously on each truck as well as via the hand brake mechanism. (I won't say every tank car has the truck-mounted system, but it is very commonly found on tank cars).  As you would logically understand, in this system with only one truck exerting brake force via the hand brake, theoretically then the available retarding force is only 50% (at best) of the air system.  So, in calculating the number of hand brakes necessary to safely secure the train, this MUST be considered.  I would add, even though manufacturers would vehemently dispute it, truck-mounted cylinders are well known to be notorious for "leaking-off" very quickly---and those leaks can go multiple places.  If the leak is simply at the cylinder, then the system on the car having such a leak will eventually drain itself (sometimes in a matter of only minutes) and the brake application by the air system will release.  More troublesome is an internal leak.  If the brake system of a car leaks into the brake pipe, modern quick-release air brake equipment needs only an increase of a pound or so to propagate a total release of all cars coupled to the same brake pipe.  Thus, in an example of the MMA oil train, if this more troublesome scenario existed, then the whole train could have released soon after the train was left unattended and firemen had allegedly disabled the brake system by perhaps pushing the Emergency Fuel Cut-Off button on the side of the locomotive.  This cut-off shuts the diesel engine down immediately, which of course ceases the ability of the locomotive brake control system (and air compressor(s)) to maintain brake pipe pressure against brake pipe leakage.  And, if the single truck hand brake equipment was prevalent, then the 11 cars the engineer set hand brakes on was not much more than a whistle in the wind for securing the oil train on that 1.3% +/- descending grade.   Bottom line---all sorts of rules can be written and enforced regarding numbers of hand brake, or crewmen employed to "baby-sit" a train, etc., but the best solution is what someone else here has already said---"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".  It is simply the best tack to exercise strategic, well-managed, DEFENSIVE railroading.  Don't leave the d _ _ _ ed train in a precarious position.  Regardless of the troubles and unexpected circumstances always encountered over the road, advance-planned, heads-up operations will not set themselves up to fail---such as the MMA did on that terrible night last month.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum 

Districts can be changed. Terrain can not. Change the district borders to allow safer parking of trains. 

 I'm sorry I still don't understand all the should do this,should change that,just do the job correctly the first time the same way we have for some time now. 

 I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus,or make the workers more watched than they are,but just do the job of tying the cars down correctly.If there's a certain place where outside factors seem to be a problem ,or terrain makes an unsafe situation, just don't leave cars there anymore.Simple as that change the job around so it's less accommodating to any means of tampering or human error.

 It doesn't  matter what you do different ,some idiot will come behind you just to try and disrupt what normal operations are.

 I don't know if they will ever truly figure out who done what in the Canadian indecent,but it really is a rare occasion that something of that magnitude occurs .

 Who knows what else we as railroaders and the operators can do different,but just stay aware and go by the current rules.They work as long as they are carried out correctly.You could do a number of things mentioned here in this discussion,but I think the FRA has come to the same conclusion that I have, just observe the current rules because it appears they don't fill they can suggest anything different.

How appropriate that the Feeding Frenzy should start up again during "Shark Week"!

Leaving the train parked on the grade is a moot point. N&W/NS has done it forever at Bluefield. The Forwarding Yard in Roanoke is also on a grade. I've doubled trains over a hill and left them at the top many many times without a runaway.

I have sat on the side of a hill, in order to stay off of road crossings, waiting to make a meet, never tied hand brake one, had all of my units shut down and never had a train even remotely try to move an inch!

Besides, there are not many places where track is on a perfect level. At least not in my neck of the woods.

So, making a fuss about leaving a train parked on a grade is so much chum for those of you who are into shopping line "scandal" tabloids!

I have yet to see anything published as to the exact grade in question and even though one can get some elevations from Google Earth (I've done this and it didn't look very steep throughout the siding). I would strongly hesitate to take those reading as actual or factual!

So, for all you National Enquirers, here is a line of chum;

How close was this engineer to the Hours of Service law?

Did he have time to properly tie the train down after stopping it in the clear of the RR crossing behind and comply with his HOS?

How many times before has this same scenario taken place without an incident?

And, more importantly, what caused the air to pump the brakes off of that train?

in the fur what it is worth dept,

MM &A has filed bankruptcy and further stated that it will continue service but will NOT carry oil!

Originally Posted by Big Jim:

How appropriate that the Feeding Frenzy should start up again during "Shark Week"!

         

That's a good one Jim  

   The NS just started shipping four loaded trains east over the Pokey and four empty sets of oil tankers each week west.

We tie trains down on the Cajon Pass all the time. Well...we did. Vehicle trains and a particular manifest trains gets parked in a controlled siding at MP76 which is still about a 1.8% grade, for hours, sometimes a couple days. The power shuts down, and the train still sits there. Just on the opposite side of the mainline from that controlled siding, they store cars in 3 different sidings for days on end. Been doing that for years, in fact that's why they built those sidings in the first place, to store cars. Not once has any of them rolled away.

3-4 years ago when business was real slow, I know many of you seen trains, cars, and engines parked/stored just about everywhere the railroads possibly could. I guarantee you that not all of those tracks were flat, and you didn't hear about any of them rolling away.....even vandalized, but nothing rolled away.

At Cajon Pass, does the controlled siding fall under the typical definition wherein entry and exit from the siding is "controlled" by the dispatcher via signal and power switches?  Is the siding equipped with split-rail or toad-type derailers?  If so, are they electrically locked or operated remotely by the dispatcher?  Do the sidings opposite the controlled siding have derailers of any kind? 

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

Major yard and terminal locations are much different and far more controlled environments than Nantes on the MMA.  And doubling the hill generally involves a siding equipped with a derailer.  Did the MMA train breach a derailer on the main or siding?

Planning and ongoing control by management as conditions change are imperative---such as stopping a train at a safe location prior to the expiration of the Hours of Service when it becomes obvious the train will not likely reach the scheduled point.  If a train has a crew short on the Hours of Service, then crew assets must be put in place to properly handle the situation.  Hours of Service regulations have emergency contingency language that waives their requirements to provide for safety, i.e. ensuring that a train is properly secured relative to existing conditions, and, the carrier must file a report with the FRA for each such incident to prevent abuse of the contingency.  

Google "Latest News on Lac-Megantic Oil Train Derailment".  Scan through the news articles listed and you'll find, as I did, an article that states the descending grade between Nantes and Megantic is +/- 1.3%.  The elevation difference between the two points supports that information---whether or not one believes the accuracy of it as our military forces do. 

The MMA set themselves up to fail, and past practice does not make a dangerous procedure correct---no matter how many times they practiced this scenario without an incident.

And a burning question---as an apparently popular term, what is CHUM?  Never hear it before.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum  

Related to Big Jim's opening line about "feeding frenzy" and "Shark Week". "Chum" is quite literally a bloody mess of chopped-up fish, dumped into water to attract sharks.

Less commonly, a metaphor for "juicy" information that would generate a media frenzy should it get out, 'cause, well, you know how they are

---PCJ

Entry to the controlled siding is at the control of the dispatcher, including the split point derail at the west end (down grade end). The other 3 sidings have manual split point derails. 

quote:

And doubling the hill generally involves a siding equipped with a derailer.

No sir it doesn't.

We left those cars on the main line and NOTHING ever rolled away. None of our sidetracks have a derail either. Also, there is no magic derail behind trains that have broken in two ascending a grade.

So, what do derails have to do directly with the cause of the accident?

As for Googling, you will have to be more specific as to which of the hundreds of articles you want people to look at.

Is it safe to assume when doubling and leaving cars on the main that you secured the train with a number of handbrakes that complied with special instructions, or, did you roll the dice and just figure the air would hold the cars?  The territory to which you refer as "our" must have its own unique trait of not equipping sidings & other appurtenant tracks with derailers.  Or perhaps its the other way around---the territories I've experienced have their own unique trait in that such tracks typically had permanent type derailers, either of the toad or split-rail type.  However, the individual that discussed sidings at Cajon Pass in this forum verified that those sidings were in fact equipped with derailers, so, the territories I've experienced must not be  completely unique.

I agree, when a train breaks in two on a grade (usually due to poor train handling or slippery General Electric motive power) there is no derail to the rear to protect against unwanted backward (downhill) movement, but, on responsibly operated territories there is a crew on the train to take action as soon as possible or other such assistance is to be promptly rendered.  Typically in heavy grade territory timetable special instructions (or similar derivative) specifies the action to be taken. 

What do derails have to do with the cause of the accident?  Can't say---but I'd logically guess nothing.  However, had the MMA train been left unattended on a track equipped with a derailer secured in the derailing position a short distance ahead (eastward) of the train, there would have been a derailment but a very minor one in comparison and most likely without the catastrophic result.

Because I love the industry, and it has been good to me for 40 years, I am greatly troubled when circumstances such as Megantic develop and cast a negative light on it therefore I have followed the news regarding it very closely.  In doing so, I'm guessing somewhere within the past two weeks, I ran across the article that included discussion of the gradient between Nantes and Megantic, but, frankly I didn't make record nor commit to memory the name of it.  Thus, for the purposes of this forum, one is free to draw the conclusion that I fabricated that information (would that be chum?) or simply---and logically---accept that the grade has to be within the stated range since the track falls approximately 400 feet in elevation over the 7 miles +/-from Nantes to Lac-Megantic.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

Thank you---I'll take a look.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

quote:

Is it safe to assume when doubling and leaving cars on the main that you secured the train with a number of handbrakes that complied with special instructions, or, did you roll the dice and just figure the air would hold the cars? 

Oh yes, on that steep of a grade handbrakes were set, but, not to any special instructions.

quote:

Because I love the industry, and it has been good to me for 40 years, I am greatly troubled when circumstances such as Megantic develop and cast a negative light on it therefore I have followed the news regarding it very closely.

Same here, but, it also troubles me that so many people that have no idea or their own idea of train operations make statements and place blame before having all of the facts at hand. In other words...Mob Rule!

Rightfully, Rich closed a previous thread that was getting out of hand. Before then I tried unsuccessfully to correct the wrongs being floated around. Since then, I have tried (somewhat unsuccessfully) to stay out of these musings and let the professionals do their detective work and report on the findings themselves. I think that is best and fair for all of those people directly involved in that accident.

The internet creates a lot of "instant experts" doesn't it?

Ihcabod, Big Jim, Wyhog, Laidoffsick, Mackb4, Hot Water - I appreciate what you fellas have done to bring your professional viewpoints to this discussion.

I would be interested to know how many collective years of railroad experience you guys bring to this forum. It has to be well into the hundreds of years.

Whadaya sayin RP?---Is that an inference to our age?  You can mark me up with 40 years and it seems like yesterday when I took that first student trip to from Grand Rapids to Toledo!  Just remember, you're no spring chicken either!

All the people that are involved with running a railroad,  need to be held "personally" accountable/responsible, legally; including, the owners and policy makers...

with no exceptions and no way to avoid being held responsible, for failing to do their legal duty...

and significant mandatory prison sentences, for those found guilty...

Things will be done right or else!

Rick

I started my 40th year with the MP/UP. Locomotive engineer.

I too can wait until the investigation into the Canadian accident concludes with its findings.

In the interim, as in the past, the FRA issues Emergency orders and adopts rule changes to try and stop the public and employees from getting killed or maimed. The statistics prove that rule changes, either by the FRA or the companies themselves, has shown a marked decline in incidents.

Are there still rear-enders? Yes, failure to comply with restricted speed rules.

Are there still derailments? Yes, hopefully less and less human caused, but it still happens that a switch was not lined properly and run-thru, a crew shoves over a derail not taken "off" or shove off the end of a stub track.

Do trains still get by "Stop" signals or pass the limits of their track warrant? Yes.

The UPRR really pushes rule compliance and test regularly to see that they are followed. There are many things that have changed in the 40 years I have been on the railroad. Things are slower, yet there are still some who thing they will get over the road quicker if they take shortcuts. 

If I owned a company and said this is how to do this job, and you did not do it as outlined, you would not work for me!

The big thing on the UPRR is risk management. It may take more steps to do the same task, but there is a less likely hood of getting hurt. You have the right to refuse a task if you deem it unsafe. (that is a big gray area!)

A note on brake sticks, there is only one or two trainmen who carry a stick in thru freight service. The guys on the local have one and use it a lot. There are brake sticks at normal places where trains are tied down, such as Labadie power plant as it has holding tracks on a slight grade. The ballast pit at Gads hill, MO has it and I have not worked that area in years, but I believe the rule is 100% hand brakes applied, as the cars are spotted near the crest of hill. Again the rule requires a release test to ensure that the amount of hand brakes applied will hold the train.  

This emergency order just wants to ensure that trains and cars are properly secured.

The hazmat carrying trains, in particular, are the target as far as not leaving unattended unless all the rule requirements are me.

I may not like all the changes over the years, but I can sure live with them!

Dan Schroeder

Of course the train or cars must be secured according to the rules, whether it's GCOR, Air Brake & Train Handling, Timetable, or Special Instructions. BNSF has a grade chart which "recommends" a starting point as to how many brakes to tie. Whether on a grade or flat ground BNSF also has a rule which states we have to tie a "sufficient" amount of hand brakes to hold the train.

It may seem that the term "sufficient" amount is left open for interpretation, but it's clearly not. That where the "Release Test" takes over.  I think I covered this erlier in this thread but here it goes again:

Tie your handbrakes, including engines and cars. Release the engine brakes and the train brakes.... does the train move? If it does not, you tied a "sufficient" amount,  you're done.

If it does move, set the air, tie some more hand brakes, and perform the "release test" again. Do this until the train don't move. Once you've worked enough out there, you get a feel for how many hand brakes you need to start with. I had a 13,000 ton train I had to tie down on a 2% grade, it took the 4 lead locomotives and 69 cars. When you tie that many brakes, you will remember  

The managers can and do download the tapes (black box) on the power to see if this test was done. It's part of their operations testing to make sure we as trainman are doing our job.  

 Rich I'm probably a junior man around here with 17 years in, and 18 more to go....as long as the 60/30 remains in effect.

LOL!

Yep...I'm 67 goin' on 17! 

http://www.1stwebdesigner.com/...ortant-things-right/

Make a signed checklist and followup, mandatory... an old tool, but, it seems to help...

Rick

I started being taught by the local DL&W Roadforman of Engines in about 1958 & 1959. During the summer of 1960, I hired on as a Hostler Helper on the DL&W, in Hoboken for the summer. My mother didn't want me to go to work for a railroad, as my father and grandfather had done, so she forced me to go to college. I hired on with EMD on June 1st, 1962, and retired at the end of 1998. I then ran an EMD small engine components rebuild business through 2007. I have been "active" with steam locomotives also since 1962, and am still with the SP 4449 crew since 1975.

Added all up, looks like I'm looking at about 54 years!

http://spotonlists.com/history...ts-in-world-history/

It's interesting to see which nation's companies have the highest frequency... when it comes to the greatest industrial disasters.

Rick

Some call it the release test, others the drift test.  What ever its called, it's a procedure that if followed should prevent undesired movement, of course short of vandalism, etc.

As a postscript, I'd add that it's too bad we've gotten to the point where people have to be told to take this step but the industry---and America---is dumbed-down and continues to be dumbed-down to the point where no one seems to be thinking.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum 

Great EMD man!  36 years---you saw EMD through its triumphant years.  Great locomotives---wouldn't even buy a GE light bulb though---just ask my wife!

That's an interesting link---thanks.  Wonder if Lac-Megantic will be added to the list?

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

40 years and 3 months and if I could go back to day one, I'd do it all again. But, not now.

Congratulations on a career well-worked.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

People familiar with the industry, such as but not limited to railroad employees and regulatory agencies, understand that various operating conditions prompt the need to "park" trains (i.e. cuts of cars with or without locomotives) from time to time.  However, the manner in which they are parked is what is critical---in other words ensuring they are properly secured and protected against unintended movement. 

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

A reason why the ATSF needs to keep the Northern Route via Dadge City and Raton Pass in good shape!

I understand that's been quite a political football.  In February of 1977 I rode the Southwest Limited (Amtrak's early version of the Super Chief) from L.A. to Chicago via Raton Pass.  I stood for several hours in the rear-most vestibule watching the world pass at high speed and recall what a wide open and lonely territory it was.  Before Uncle Sam began to provide super highways for virtually free use by motor carriers (No.1 competitor of railroads) railroads had an easier time affording multiple routes but I guess that day is all but gone.  If motor carriers had to supply the capital necessary to build their own private highway route---the way the RR's do---the playing field would be much more level and not stacked in favor of the motor carriers.

Ichabod S. Finkelbaum

 23 years on the Norfolk Southern on the Kenova  District of the Pocahontas Division.

I hired on as a brakeman and was promoted to Engineer in 93'.

 I work out of Kenova on a mine run which we service one mine at Colmont with one of the steepest grades on the Pocahontas.Kenova also serves several chemical plants and three coal dock facilities.Occasionally we will take up the slack on road trains.

 Kenova has reporting jobs with regular hours/days,and on call 6 and 2 mine runs.

 I have worked I.D. jobs from Portsmouth,Ohio to Bellvue and Bluefield,WV as well as Watkins Yard in Columbus,Ohio.And the short pools from Portsmouth to Williamson,WV.

 I've got the chance to run about every type of train I guess one could run from 270 car loaded coal trains to 12,000 foot long inter-modals to circus and presidential passenger trains and 150 car long loaded auto racks,and lately ECP coal trains.

 One of the most memorable moments on the railroad was  getting to work with the 611,and taking my oldest son on board the cab of the 611.

 My most cherished memories though are the people I've gotten to know as my family the last 23 years .I've got 16 more to go and I'm sure many more memories and experiences to have in those years,so I guess here I go.......

It certainly looks as the rail company is done for. This is the latest news via the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23686321