New MTH Smoke unit problem

MTH just sent this out today. Still waiting on more details or possibly new video instructions. 

@Strap Hanger posted:

Mallard, the roof of my RS3, about an inch from the smokestack to the cab, became incredibly hot to the touch.  So much so, it caused a slight dimple or bubble spot in the upper right hand corner (facing the smokestack) of the grills at the top of the engine.  I’m going to be regularly feeling this area for excessive heat after my board is reflashed with the new code just to be sure. I’ll let my guard down once I regularly notice that it’s not warmer than my other engines (like my mth rs1).

Thanks - that's good to know and I was thinking the same thing.  However, by the time it gets that far it's pretty bad. Hoping for some guidance that is a bit more certain. 

I took the shell off.  Didn't see anything unusual - no blistering of the shell, and no burning on the smoke unit, but prior runtime was minimal.   Ran it for awhile - again, nothing unusual was observed.  At idle, while it was smoking at the low setting, I checked the voltage at the connections to the smoke unit - 0.8vdc - but I don't know what the spec should be.

@TrainWorld.com posted:

MTH just sent this out today. Still waiting on more details or possibly new video instructions.

2021 RailKing RS-3 Diesel Locomotive Smoke Unit Overheating

February 22, 2022 - The 2021 M.T.H. RailKing RS-3 Diesel Locomotives released in January 2022 were mistakenly programmed with the wrong smoke unit temperature values in the Proto-Sound 3.0 firmware resulting in excessive external smoke unit housing temperatures which could cause the locomotive shell to distort and warp. The issue exists in both conventional or command operating modes. Owners of the locomotives should immediately cease operating the locomotives with the smoke unit on until the firmware in the locomotive is replaced. Revised firmware has been uploaded to the M.T.H. website and is available for free download by visiting the support tab of each affected RS-3 diesel's landing page.

See below for more details on obtaining the DCS Consumer Loader software and using the software to reprogram the locomotive's firmware.

HOW TO OBTAIN THE DCS CONSUMER LOADER WINDOWS SOFTWARE

1. Visit the DCS Software Downloads page on the M.T.H. Website located HERE to download the free software.

2. Review the DCS Consumer Loader software installation tutorial video located HERE.

3. Review the DCS Hardware Connection For Firmware Updates tutorial video located HERE. Note: you'll only need to review the section about hooking up the TIU to the computer

4. Review the DCS Loader Program Instructions user manual located HERE.

Should you have any questions about this issue or require assistance in using the DCS hardware and consumer loader software please don't hesitate to contact the M.T.H. Sales Department.

Phone: 410-381-2580 or email

Hi Ken- I just picked up the LIRR RS-1

MTH #30-20943-1 Long Island RS-1 Diesel Engine With Proto-Sound 3.0 - (Trainworld Exclusive) (Green)

Any chance the software in these is wrong too?

Thanks

@RSJB18 posted:

MTH #30-20943-1 Long Island RS-1 Diesel Engine With Proto-Sound 3.0 - (Trainworld Exclusive) (Green)

Any chance the software in these is wrong too?

Thanks

The RS-1's are not affected by the smoke unit issue being experienced with the RS-3's.

@MichRR714 posted:

The RS-1's are not affected by the smoke unit issue being experienced with the RS-3's.

Thanks. I heard the same from the OP, Strap Hanger. Apparently the 1's have the larger smoke unit.

Bob

Bob, I emailed MTH to confirm but based on their email it was only the RS-3s. I'll let you know what they say.

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Furthermore.
I believe the MTH email with the videos and instructions on how to fix these engines is very confusing and very generic. These instructions were not really specific to this issue. I'm assuming this may have led to more confusion as it is a lot easier if it's spelled out with a step-by-step process.    Hopefully, they will create a new video and send a revised email so it can truly walk the consumer through step by step. We are working on a quick video in the meantime to get people comfortable with these upgrades. 

Here are the steps that we took to update the file.  If anyone has any input, I would appreciate it as we need to update our customers in the most efficient way possible.  The easier it is to fix the better we all can resolve this issue. 

1. Visit the DCS Software Downloads page on the M.T.H. Website located HERE to download the free software.
2. Before you link your TIU to your computer turn on the track power to your TIU   (If you hook up your computer first you will have an issue)
2. Link your TIU to the computer using a cable like this (Please note you do not have to use any telephone or stereo wires as MTH hardware video showed - This will cause your desktop not find the tiu)

(Note B If you have an older TIU unit you will need a connection below to hook up to your tiu PC Input RS-232) 

3. In the DCS Consumer loader Click Options - Serial Port - Auto Search for TIU   (This syncs your TIU to your Computer)

4. Go to MTH website, type in the affected product number, and click on the Proto-Sound File to download in the support tab.  I would then extract this in a folder or desktop to easily be found. 

5. Put the engine on the track.  And now you have to "Send the flash code to the engine" Click on the flash engine looking icon on screen.  Once you click start, you now have to upload the "Proto 3 sound file" zip file that you saved earlier.

6. This will now load for approximately 3-5 minutes.  You will hear a loud screeching noise, turn off the track power and now the engine will beep to confirm it is done.  From what MTH has told us, the only way you can tell if it uploaded correctly is to compare how it used to smoke vs how it smokes now.  It should not smoke as much as before.

Bob,

As per mth. See below

No.  RS-1s are ok.  Different code.  They're fine.

Thanks Ken.

@TrainWorld.com posted:

...
I believe the MTH email with the videos and instructions on how to fix these engines is very confusing and very generic. These instructions were not really specific to this issue. I'm assuming this may have led to more confusion as it is a lot easier if it's spelled out with a step-by-step process.    Hopefully, they will create a new video and send a revised email so it can truly walk the consumer through step by step. We are working on a quick video in the meantime to get people comfortable with these upgrades.

Thank you for pointing this out - glad it's not just me that feels that way.

...

4. Go to MTH website, type in the affected product number, and click on the Proto-Sound File to download in the support tab.  I would then extract this in a folder or desktop to easily be found.

While this is true, one of the confusing parts is that although you will download the sound file, that's not the one you'll be using for the flash process.

...

5. Put the engine on the track.  And now you have to "Send the flash code to the engine" Click on the flash engine looking icon on screen.  Once you click start, you now have to upload the "Proto 3 sound file" zip file that you saved earlier.

Another confusing aspect of the process is that although you need to unzip the sound file if it's being used (which it's not in this instance), the DCS loader knows how to use this file without the user unzipping it.  It would be helpful to identify it as the chain file.  Also, the way that MTH named the files really stinks - they should have made the names more descriptive.  

...

6. This will now load for approximately 3-5 minutes.  You will hear a loud screeching noise, turn off the track power and now the engine will beep to confirm it is done.  From what MTH has told us, the only way you can tell if it uploaded correctly is to compare how it used to smoke vs how it smokes now.  It should not smoke as much as before.

Perhaps a video showing abnormal vs. normal smoke volume would be helpful.

Thank you - see comments above.

Thanks for the notes Mallard.  I'll update and tweak this document.  Unfortunately, we're trying to rush this process as quickly as we can and probably are not the best ones to be doing this support video as MTH is a lot more familiar with their own systems.  We did a quick tutorial that can help. Even though looking back we could of talked or displayed things differently to help I think it will help the consumer with the overall idea of it. 

Below is something we quickly threw together. May help. 

@TrainWorld.com posted:

Thanks for the notes Mallard.  I'll update and tweak this document.  Unfortunately, we're trying to rush this process as quickly as we can and probably are not the best ones to be doing this support video as MTH is a lot more familiar with their own systems.  We did a quick tutorial that can help. Even though looking back we could of talked or displayed things differently to help I think it will help the consumer with the overall idea of it.

Below is something we quickly threw together. May help.

Outstanding customer support from one of the leading Ogauge retailers, Trainworld!  Excellent video that even someone technically challenged like myself could follow.  

Ken and Trainworld: Many thanks for stepping up to the plate to help folks with this issue (which should never have happened or slipped through in the first place). It appears to be a fairly straightforward fix for someone who has a good bit of experience with such things (and the hardware, etc., to accomplish it), but I can imagine that there are a good number of new RS-3 owners who are ill-equipped, one way or another, to attempt the fix.

Thanks, Allan.  Ken Sr. floated the idea to MTH to hold a seminar at York Train show and for people to bring their engine to their table to upgrade it for them if they don't want to attempt this themselves so well see. That might be the best for all parties so dealers and consumers can get the proper hands-on training on how to upgrade these engines.   I also asked for a professional MTH video and a live segment with MTH to address any questions or concerns.  Moreover, we will start to train certain staff members to start to feel comfortable with this issue to properly address these engines but as you said it might not be for everyone. This is also a crash course for dealers as well as the consumer so it takes time to develop a process on how to handle this.   That being said, MTH does have specialists who developed this technology and can much better articulate how to upgrade their engines or do it properly at MTH at this point.   If anybody is not able to perform or upgrade their engine, they can still call MTH 410-381-2580 or email if they are having any difficulties.  We have some action items in the pipeline so we're doing our best to address all the concerns and situations as they arise. 

I, too, have a RS3 in question.  Absolutely wonderful video Ken!  I did drop my engine off at my LHS yesterday to fix, but I probably would have tried it myself if I saw this video first because I, too, thought the instructions were confusing.  And I could have been running my engine today instead of waiting for it to be serviced.

I can't speak for everyone, but this kind of value-added service from Trainworld, like your virtual meetings, makes me feel much better about buying from distant dealers like you.

Thanks from Wisconsin!

Mike

@TrainWorld.com posted:

Thanks for the notes Mallard.  I'll update and tweak this document.  Unfortunately, we're trying to rush this process as quickly as we can and probably are not the best ones to be doing this support video as MTH is a lot more familiar with their own systems.  We did a quick tutorial that can help. Even though looking back we could of talked or displayed things differently to help I think it will help the consumer with the overall idea of it.

Below is something we quickly threw together. May help.

...

Ken, thanks for putting this together.  Overall, it's an excellent tutorial, especially on short notice.  It's a shame that MTH didn't do it since they caused the issue, but kudos to you for stepping up.

The video is plenty good as it is, but in case you plan to revise it, here are a few minor observations:

a) the cable is USB A-male to B-male connector - available for about $7 on Amazon (and elsewhere, I'm sure).

b) MTH's hookup video shows that the computer-to-TIU connection can be established without using transformer power - the TIU gets the necessary power via the USB connection. 

c)  It might be worth mentioning that the TIU jumper (shown in the MTH video) which isn't needed for flashing an engine is used when updating the TIU.

d)  If someone follows the video literally, they might put the engine on a live track - unless one has really steady hands, it needs to be powered down or the track disconnected before setting the engine on it.  (Should be obvious, but you know how that goes...)

e) A visual demo of too much vs. normal smoke.

Hope to see you at York in April.

@TrainWorld.com posted:

...That being said, MTH does have specialists who developed this technology and can much better articulate how to upgrade their engines or do it properly at MTH at this point.   If anybody is not able to perform or upgrade their engine, they can still call MTH 410-381-2580 or email if they are having any difficulties.  ...

When I was having trouble following their video, I tried calling MTH at that number.  The greeting identified it as being the Sales department, and it sent me to voicemail.  I didn't leave a message, and am highly suspicious of a company responding to voicemail, so can't say if they would call back or not.  I also wonder if the sales dept. would have people available to help.  And I'll bet they're getting a LOT of emails right now.

Thanks Mike!

All good points Mallard. Thats the name of that cable!  I just know it looks like a printer cable lol.   I ditto the comments on watching mths video first, Points B and C got us confused as well!  Unfortunatley, I actually would advise people not to read or watch MTH's service email. This will most likely confuse people as it did with us.  I hope they will revise and update it.

Here is a demo of too much smoke from a RS-3. Watch at 1:05.

I run the RS-3 conventionally as I am waiting to upgrade.  Is there anyway to update it?  I have emailed both MTH and the retailer where I bought it and had no response.  I turned the smoke unit down as low as I could.  Anyone else had any luck?

@Da Moose posted:

I run the RS-3 conventionally as I am waiting to upgrade.  Is there anyway to update it?  I have emailed both MTH and the retailer where I bought it and had no response.  I turned the smoke unit down as low as I could.  Anyone else had any luck?

These RS-3's are an interesting problem.  MTH's warranty states that they will refund the product entirely with issues because they don't make repairs.  I filled out a warranty issue on MTH's website on a coupler issue with a passenger car a few months ago and never heard back.  Fortunately it was a small problem and a forum member gave me a tip on how to fix it (thank you OGRR forum!)

I brought my RS-3 to my LHS for the software fix and got a little pushback when I asked if it was covered by warranty after the fix was done.  However, they said they were good with me not having to pay for the fix because I am a good customer.  I felt bad and offered to pay, anyway -- and made a purchase to ease my conscious.  It's seems to me the right thing for MTH to do is reimburse the dealers because it is MTH's problem out of the box.  Not sure how it works but I don't feel it's right for anyone to have to pay for a repair/reprogramming that was blatantly wrong on a brand new $350 or so engine.  They offer a do-it-yourself solution, but it's not an easy solution for some.  I felt way more comfortable having a MTH authorized tech do it for me -- at least before I saw Trainworld's video here.

@IRON HORSE posted:

...I brought my RS-3 to my LHS for the software fix and got a little pushback when I asked if it was covered by warranty after the fix was done.  However, they said they were good with me not having to pay for the fix because I am a good customer.  I felt bad and offered to pay, anyway -- and made a purchase to ease my conscious.  It's seems to me the right thing for MTH to do is reimburse the dealers because it is MTH's problem out of the box.  Not sure how it works but I don't feel it's right for anyone to have to pay for a repair/reprogramming that was blatantly wrong on a brand new $350 or so engine.  They offer a do-it-yourself solution, but it's not an easy solution for some.  I felt way more comfortable having a MTH authorized tech do it for me -- at least before I saw Trainworld's video here.

Why should your LHS give any pushback regarding a perfectly reasonable request? (Although there's no way this should affect the warranty.)  They shouldn't hesitate to spend five minutes doing a flash for anyone, let alone a good customer - it keeps a good customer, and can build goodwill to turn a marginal or non-customer into a good one.  IMO, your LHS isn't very customer-friendly - you're doing them a favor by spending your money there - they're not doing you a favor.  With an attitude like that, you might as well buy online.

Unfortunately, my understanding is that MTH has never paid the LHS to do warranty repairs - they just don't charge for parts.  Great deal for MTH, but not so much for the LHS.   

@Da Moose posted:

I run the RS-3 conventionally as I am waiting to upgrade.  Is there anyway to update it?  I have emailed both MTH and the retailer where I bought it and had no response.  I turned the smoke unit down as low as I could.  Anyone else had any luck?

Do you know anyone local to you who has DCS and a computer?  Following Ken's instructions, it's about a 15 minute process, including setting everything up.

Might be worth calling the retailer - a lot of times, emails end up in the spam bucket and they never see it.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Why should your LHS give any pushback regarding a perfectly reasonable request? (Although there's no way this should affect the warranty.)  They shouldn't hesitate to spend five minutes doing a flash for anyone, let alone a good customer - it keeps a good customer, and can build goodwill to turn a marginal or non-customer into a good one.

Good point if it is a quick fix.  And good suggestion for Da Moose to call a local MTH dealer.  I've been doing business with my LHS for 20 years or so and they know what they are doing  (they've done PS board upgrades for me).  It took them longer than 15 minutes  -- more closer to 30.   Maybe I should have told them to watch Ken's video first because it sounds like it took Ken a while to figure it out, too, before he made the video -- he even says to disregard MTH's instructions.   Perhaps I was their first redo on the RS3 or they reloaded the whole program for the engine.  Nevertheless, it took some time and I'm glad they fixed it.  It's a great engine.

Da Moose.  Send us an email at orders@trainworld.com attention Ken Jr.  I will forward it to my MTH contact, however, he is currently out of the office until Thursday. 

Not sure who the LHS in question is but just to speak somewhat on the dealer experience side. The dealers never received any information or specific instructions on fixing these engines other than the same email the consumer email list received.  After reading the email, watching the videos I can see why consumers and dealers would be hesitant.  It is certainly a frustrating issue for all parties involved.  The only way we were able to work it out is because I had two of the head technicians from MTH on the phone trying to troubleshoot and instruct me step by step.  It seems like not everyone is able to get a hold of MTH which is certainly a concern and point we will be bringing up.  Just like other dealers, we did not have the correct setup or training on flashing the engines which could have been addressed before the email went out so customers can quickly have their concerns addressed.  We just purchased a new computer for one of our test tracks and had to train certain employees so they now feel comfortable with the process (2 weeks later). Yes, once you learn the process it is easy and you can become familiar and comfortable, but I can see why some consumers or dealers may push back and want MTH to handle this as they did offer Return Authorizations for customers.  I'm sure a dealer who has never done it before may not want to try it or learn on a customer's engine and I'm sure a customer may not want someone who never did it before attempting the flash on their own engine. Again I don't know who the dealer is but just some of my own thoughts on the situation. 

Thanks for the advice.  I really don’t have a relationship with a local dealer.  Have bought most of my stuff on-line as I did this.  Will give the dealer I bought from a little more time to respond and then try MTH CS one more time.  

Ken Jr., your response sums it up well.  Thank you.  I think my guys in Milwaukee were frustrated a little over it as I'm sure other dealers are/were.  But they got it done and, as I said, your video is great for all -- sounds like dealers could use it, too.

By the way, the coupler issue I briefly mentioned above was a MTH premier passenger set I bought from Trainworld in 2021.  I e-mailed Trainworld and received an immediate response.  I was told you had no parts to fix it, so I needed to contact MTH.  I did, via their website, and never got a response.  I read the warranty, though, and quickly realized MTH will refund or exchange only -- not fix.  I knew they couldn't exchange because that product is sold out, and I did not want a refund because I like the set.  So, I created a post on the forum and was told how to fix it myself.   I have to take it apart and tighten a screw.  I'm sharing this story for FYI only and not to complain because I'm pleased with everything I've purchased from your company over the years.  I do think, however, MTH should respond to service/warranty questions from buyers like me when they fill out their form on their website. 

Mike

Thanks Mike.  That is great feedback as I am very surprised MTH is not responding to parts requests on items that are under warranty.  For a small part like a coupler, I would think it would behoove all parties involved to send the customer a small part to avoid a return and a dissatisfied customer as MTH most likely has parts like this.  I'm also surprised by this because they set up a parts website that should be easy for them to provide parts for customers under warranty.  In many situations, I have been working with MTH and they have been able to provide the customer with the parts or even help repair the engine, so I will inquire about how they are handling consumer-direct inquiries.  For the record, MTH did inform me that they were answering the forms as of 2 weeks ago, so I will press to make sure they are following through. 

@TrainWorld.com - I've given a modest share of my business to TW for a few years and have bought a lot from you at York.  However, I'm really impressed by how you've gone above and beyond with the RS-3 smoke issue and helping others in this thread.  Although I'm rethinking my future MTH purchases and dealer choices due to their warranty and parts issues and extremely poor taste with some recent product offerings (let's leave it at that), I am going to do my best to send more of my business your way.  I hope that others will do the same.

Today I re-flashed my 3 new RS-3's, unfortunately I am having second thoughts. Now that the 3 locos are fixed there is hardly any smoke at all. I wish before I had done the fix I had tried turning down the smoke volume on the DCS remote menu for control of smoke volume. And then maybe I would have kept checking the top of the body for excessive or damaging heat. Anyways just a second thought.

I doubt there is any road back.

Thank you, Mallard!  Totally understand both ways.  I will be emailing MTH with some recommendations so hopefully, we all can learn and improve from this situation. 

Kevin, there is a setting on MTH DCS for the amount of smoke.  I believe it's a low/med/high setting. But yes it is a noticeable difference. 

Based on some recommendations here is something quick as a  before and after video so everyone can see the difference.  Charlie had a great video but this might be easier to show the difference.

Well, my RS3 has returned, reflashed and fully functional. It was a Trainworld exclusive engine and they provided outstanding service getting me back up and running (as you can all see from the above videos) .  The smoke is definitely less than what it was before, but that’s fine and probably more prototypical than the previous plumes of smoke. I can’t thank Trainworld, Ken jr, and his team, enough. This was my first online engine purchase and I always felt like I was dealing with the local train shop down the road.  Thanks Trainworld!

@TrainWorld.com posted:

Thank you, Mallard!  Totally understand both ways.  I will be emailing MTH with some recommendations so hopefully, we all can learn and improve from this situation.

Kevin, there is a setting on MTH DCS for the amount of smoke.  I believe it's a low/med/high setting. But yes it is a noticeable difference.

Based on some recommendations here is something quick as a  before and after video so everyone can see the difference.  Charlie had a great video but this might be easier to show the difference.

Just wondering if the fan is operating in the above video from Trainworld. My MTH loco smoke fans seem to have more force pushing the smoke out.

@jini5 posted:

Just wondering if the fan is operating in the above video from Trainworld. My MTH loco smoke fans seem to have more force pushing the smoke out.

If the fan isn't running, it wouldn't even be doing that.  However, what may be happening is the wick is blocking the airflow so only a little air is getting by.

I have an older RS-3, 30-20215-1, PS3 from 2014 that was purchased new when released.  It smokes just like the 'After' example in the TW video above.  This model has the smaller MTH smoke unit (one resistor) and that's all it has ever put out.

Being used to the two resistor MTH smoke units, I thought there was something wrong with it when I first got it and tried to improve smoke output.  That's all the smoke it has ever put out no matter what I tried.  There was also a PS3 sound file upgrade for it sometime after it was released which I also updated, it made no difference in smoke output.  Not a lot of smoke, but it's never had any excessive heat problems either.

A number of the smaller locomotives have that smoke unit, the VO-1000 comes to mind.  I also have PS/2 Camelback with the small smoke unit, though later models have the full sized smoker.  That is also the smoke unit used in locomotives that have whistle steam.

From the posts above, glad I didn't send my RS-3 in yet.

I lowered the smoke volume setting on the DCS remote. I inspected inside the RS-3 shell and it still looked like new. I added MTH reflecting tape strips to the shell where the smoke unit is located just in case. This reflective tape is used in subway shells over the lighting. MTH gave me a bunch of sheets in an attempt to correct the R40 buckling vent issue, which had no bearing on the issue. Brass vents were made too long, buckle with cool temp, flatten out when heated up by the lights. I had to be cut and superglue the vents on the original set. Still flat after all these years.

If I have to send the RS-3 back to the dealer, is shipping covered both ways by MTH?

I STRONGLY suggest you load the correct chain file for the small smoke unit if you don't want to send it back.  The chain file for the large smoke unit will dump too much power into the little smoke unit, and you will have premature failures and/or melting of your shell.  It's simple if you have the DCS loader on your computer to fix this without sending it back.

@MTH RD posted:

Yes.  Only the latest run that was recently delivered.

Are the latest run of RS-1's OK. More specifically the Amtrak RS-1. I am looking to buy one.

@jini5 posted:

Are the latest run of RS-1's OK. More specifically the Amtrak RS-1. I am looking to buy one.

Yes the RS-1 is OK. This was answered earlier in this post. The RS1 has the larger smoke unit and is not affected.

Brad

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I STRONGLY suggest you load the correct chain file for the small smoke unit if you don't want to send it back.  The chain file for the large smoke unit will dump too much power into the little smoke unit, and you will have premature failures and/or melting of your shell.  It's simple if you have the DCS loader on your computer to fix this without sending it back.

Getting the DCS loader is pretty easy.  After you download it, follow Trainworld's instructional video - much better than MTH's instructions.