New MTH Worth Buying?

Heck I buy NIB MTH's diesels that were in the catalogs 10+ years ago in some cases. At big dollar amounts because they are cool and hard to find. No warranty but I don't mind.

I'm probably dumb but I never turn in warranty cards on any of my MTH's regardless of how I get them.

Been experimenting with the MRC Prodigy for DCC control. Runs both the MTH PS 3 and Atlas diesels quite well. We are definitely a little spoiled myself included!

Chuck

As to buying MTH engines I am on hold until I see how support for DCS and parts pan out once MTH as we know it are gone.

@Nycfan posted:

As to buying MTH engines I am on hold until I see how support for DCS and parts pan out once MTH as we know it are gone.

I am also waiting for news about dcs and parts. If MTH lives on in some sense, I will likely go mostly dcs and railking imperial/scale.

****, I'll still buy MTH. I just bought my first MTH Premiere engine (well its non powered) to complete my Santa Fe 3751 Employee Appreciation train.

@jjm posted:

While I see the appeal of buying stuff you like, with the imminent demise of MTH, is buying new wise?  No ability to make warranty claims.  No parts sources.  No service.  Just seems like a bad bet, especially at full price.  I guess you could express the same concerns about buying used, but at least you are not buying used at full price.

MTH is honoring warranty repairs after they close, through their ASC folks. The technology portion is breaking off into another company and there will still be repairs from there, as well as advancements. On a video forum earlier this week, it was said that a sale to a group of investors was reportedly close.

Just received my latest new MTH SD70ACe this morning.  I wanted to get one last new MTH engine from their last published catalog.  As reliable as all of my MTH engines are,    I have no worries with this purchase.  Also, it's under warranty, and when warranties expire, there will always be experienced techs out there to fix them.  MTH's new tech offshoot will provide us with the parts down the road.

@John Ptak posted:

MTH is honoring warranty repairs after they close, through their ASC folks. The technology portion is breaking off into another company and there will still be repairs from there, as well as advancements. On a video forum earlier this week, it was said that a sale to a group of investors was reportedly close.

Yes, MTH has said it would honor warranties.  How else could they convince people to pay retail for new stuff?  But, as pointed out by several tech repair people in this thread and elsewhere, MTH's capability of supplying parts and compensating those who do the repairs is in question.  MTH remains tight-lipped about potential future plans, creating a swirl of speculation.

Might be best to buy new stuff with a credit card that offers purchase protection and extended warranty.  Might not get your engine fixed, but it might get your money back.

As a 2 rail guy, I liked that MTH  had 2 rail scale engines and cars.

I have bought lots of additional MTH this year....never had to use their warranty so who cares?  Many of their roads and engines and cars will NEVER be produced by Lionel, so get them while you can or pay more later on ebay.

If I look at my recent purchase, MTH is doing quite well.  Are they really shutting down???? Asking for a friend.

John

@rdj92807 posted:

I have bought lots of additional MTH this year....never had to use their warranty so who cares?  Many of their roads and engines and cars will NEVER be produced by Lionel, so get them while you can or pay more later on ebay.

I've never paid more on eBay for MTH.  Usually it quite the opposite.  I wish some of the ones I want to sell were actually going for closer to what I paid for them originally.

I pre-ordered two of the BNSF Heritage ES44AC's and just bought an ATSF SD45 (all with scale wheels). I'm optimistic that the DCS/Proto-3 part of the company will live on somewhere. Worst case scenario I just switch my scale-wheel engines over to DCC.

The beauty of market forces is if MTH or whatever exists after does not support what has been created over the last 25 years, some wonderful, ambitious American will seize the opportunity in one shape or form and create support options to fill that void.

I expect some really smart electrical engineer to develop a plug and play product that can easily be installed in any pre-bluetooth TMCC/DCS loco and allow to be controlled via bluetooth.  It’s not an if, it’s a when. IMO

@DETROIT posted:

The beauty of market forces is if MTH or whatever exists after does not support what has been created over the last 25 years, some wonderful, ambitious American will seize the opportunity in one shape or form and create support options to fill that void.

I expect some really smart electrical engineer to develop a plug and play product that can easily be installed in any pre-bluetooth TMCC/DCS loco and allow to be controlled via bluetooth.  It’s not an if, it’s a when. IMO

I think that is right, though I think the aftermarket would likely develop to sell expensive replacement electronics at a hefty price.  Mechanical and cosmetic stuff will probably be easy.

The question at this moment is would you pay new prices for new pieces that might be orphaned and may not be capable of getting warranty service?  

If there is no reliable follow on rising out MTH, what other alternative is there?

@rdj92807 posted:

I have bought lots of additional MTH this year....never had to use their warranty so who cares?  Many of their roads and engines and cars will NEVER be produced by Lionel, so get them while you can or pay more later on ebay.

I’ve been standing on the sidelines in this thread but I have to ask: how do you know that Lionel will NEVER (your emphasis) produce certain road names and locomotives?

Can you share some road names or locomotives that are in this list of “do not make” by Lionel?

The other question is, now that MTH is shutting down, are there road names and locomotives that will never be made because MTH won’t be around to make them and Lionel refuses to make them? That would mean there is a list of “lost” trains that will never be made!

The third question: Is Lionel refusing to make road names and locomotives that would make money for Lionel?

I’m curious about some of the interesting ramifications of your “Lionel will NEVER make” statement.

Rumblings continue that the sale is still in the works and that production is being planned thru December. MTH is certainly actively selling and producing quality products.

Has anyone asked?

@Bill Webb posted:

Rumblings continue that the sale is still in the works and that production is being planned thru December. MTH is certainly actively selling and producing quality products.

Has anyone asked?

Any sources for the "rumblings"?

A check on MTH's website doesn't look very promising:

"February 2, 2021 - M.T.H. Electric Trains will be releasing several limited-edition releases of the RailKing SD70ACe Diesel/Caboose Sets in four different liveries later this Spring. These unique releases are part of a series of products representing the last M.T.H. production runs as the company concludes its 40-year history this year."

"M.T.H. Electric Trains has announced that it has sold its S Gauge tooling and molds to Scale Trains.com as part of its divestiture of tooling assets as the company prepares to shut down operations later in 2021 on the heels of M.T.H. President Mike Wolf's retirement."

and of course this announcement is still up on the website and has not been rescinded: "Columbia, Maryland, June 9, 2020 --- M.T.H. Electric Trains president Mike Wolf has announced his retirement and the closure of his business effective June 1, 2021. Below is the text of his announcement sent to the M.T.H. Electric Trains Authorized Retailer network on the evening of June 8, 2020."

and don't forget this:

"December 16, 2020 - M.T.H. Electric Trains has selected Cabin Fever Auctions as the auction company to liquidate select contents of M.T.H.'s 124,000 sq. ft. Maryland warehouse.

Cabin Fever Auctions will conduct a series of online auctions to liquidate the vast amount of factory samples, photo samples, archival inventory, and original catalog artwork contained in this huge warehouse. Also going under the hammer are numerous show and display layouts to be sold online for pickup at the warehouse."

A check of the auction house website will show that everything has sold. It's gone.

@Madockawando posted:

Any sources for the "rumblings"?

A check on MTH's website doesn't look very promising:

"February 2, 2021 - M.T.H. Electric Trains will be releasing several limited-edition releases of the RailKing SD70ACe Diesel/Caboose Sets in four different liveries later this Spring. These unique releases are part of a series of products representing the last M.T.H. production runs as the company concludes its 40-year history this year."

"M.T.H. Electric Trains has announced that it has sold its S Gauge tooling and molds to Scale Trains.com as part of its divestiture of tooling assets as the company prepares to shut down operations later in 2021 on the heels of M.T.H. President Mike Wolf's retirement."

and of course this announcement is still up on the website and has not been rescinded: "Columbia, Maryland, June 9, 2020 --- M.T.H. Electric Trains president Mike Wolf has announced his retirement and the closure of his business effective June 1, 2021. Below is the text of his announcement sent to the M.T.H. Electric Trains Authorized Retailer network on the evening of June 8, 2020."

and don't forget this:

"December 16, 2020 - M.T.H. Electric Trains has selected Cabin Fever Auctions as the auction company to liquidate select contents of M.T.H.'s 124,000 sq. ft. Maryland warehouse.

Cabin Fever Auctions will conduct a series of online auctions to liquidate the vast amount of factory samples, photo samples, archival inventory, and original catalog artwork contained in this huge warehouse. Also going under the hammer are numerous show and display layouts to be sold online for pickup at the warehouse."

A check of the auction house website will show that everything has sold. It's gone.

MTH Dealers have said that they have production planned through the end of the year. They have new announcements every week or every other week.

If there was some sort of a deal going on behind the scenes there's no way it would be made public until it is finalized. I hope there is something like that actually happening. So I am hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

Yes, stuff has been sold but the company is more than 4 walls and stuff.  But if you are selling this business is this stuff something on the top of a buyers want list.   Probably not.  I'd want specifications, drawings, procedures, tooling access, software, business records like suppliers, financial records, market research, etc.  Oh yes, the corporate knowledge in the minds of present/former staff.  Not everything is written down.

"Watch the Feet"

@John Ptak posted:

MTH Dealers have said that they have production planned through the end of the year. They have new announcements every week or every other week.

The wind down doesn’t bode well for support after the sale or overseeing quality control, right?  So aside from just wanting something, is the only other rationale for buying new stuff at new prices the hope that all will be well?

I’ll be seeing a guy who knows a lady that shops at the same grocery store that Mikes 3rd grade teachers plumber shops at so I’ll ask what’s going on at MTH next time.

@shorling posted:

Yes, stuff has been sold but the company is more than 4 walls and stuff.  But if you are selling this business is this stuff something on the top of a buyers want list.   Probably not.  I'd want specifications, drawings, procedures, tooling access, software, business records like suppliers, financial records, market research, etc.  Oh yes, the corporate knowledge in the minds of present/former staff.  Not everything is written down.

"Watch the Feet"

All that stuff is already gone with the selling of the archives and warehouse and production samples. The majority of the employees are gone as well.

@MartyE posted:

I’ll be seeing a guy who knows a lady that shops at the same grocery store that Mikes 3rd grade teachers plumber shops at so I’ll ask what’s going on at MTH next time.

Wait? It that like " I know a guy who knows a guy?" LOL!!!

Mr. Madockawondo, could you tell us who the employees that are remaining please?

@jjm posted:

The wind down doesn’t bode well for support after the sale or overseeing quality control, right?  So aside from just wanting something, is the only other rationale for buying new stuff at new prices the hope that all will be well?

I don’t really purchase any MTH, or other mode train product for any other reason than the fact that I like it. I guess I don’t really understand what you mean. No train is an investment any more.

@Dave Nichols posted:

Mr. Madockawondo, could you tell us who the employees that are remaining please?

LoL! What a strange question! I assume you are asking besides Mr. Wolf?

- Are you asking because you don't think MTH has any employees?

- Or are you asking because you believe that MTH has lots of employees?

- Or are you playing the old "Stump the Chump" game where you have a list of all of MTH's employees  and you are trying to see if I have the same list?

Please provide some context about what you are really  trying to find out here. I want to help if I can!

I think we all buy stuff thinking it can be repaired if something goes south, mainly concerning locomotives or control systems.  What we're reading is folks wondering whether repair parts, replacement TIUs/WIUs, PS3 boards will be available for more than a year or two.

For those who don't mind replacing PS3 boards with TMCC boards or electronic conventional control, this isn't as much of an issue. For those with substantial rosters of PS3/PS2 locos and a TIU/remote/Z4000 or two, and/or who don't much have interest in Lionel/TMCC/Legacy/LionChief, the current uncertainty probably represents more worry than for those who have both systems or are primarily Lionel/TMCC/etc.

There's no easy way out of this dilemma given that the likelihood of MTH existing as more than a brand with special runs seems quite low as we approach the May deadline.  If you can buy a new TIU or Z4000 or Realtrax in 2022, I will be pleasantly surprised, but I wouldn't count on it. New replacement parts? Maybe for a year or two.  Time to face the likely future, however unpleasant for some.

@MartyE posted:

I’ll be seeing a guy who knows a lady that shops at the same grocery store that Mikes 3rd grade teachers plumber shops at so I’ll ask what’s going on at MTH next time.

@RickO posted:

I love Judge Judy.

I would think the more valuable aspects of the MTH business, short of tooling, only exist in digital format residing on server(s).    None of this was for sale in the Cabin Fever auction.

As we approach the sunset of MTH, an aftermarket could easily appear providing electronics, software, spare parts and repair.  All that exists for Lionel and they are still alive and well.

@John Ptak posted:

I don’t really purchase any MTH, or other mode train product for any other reason than the fact that I like it. I guess I don’t really understand what you mean. No train is an investment any more.

If the retail price remains unchanged (yes, we all pay less than full retail, but still a lot more than used), is it worth buying stuff where the promised quality and warranty service might be in question?  If buying used, you take that chance all the time.  But if you pay up to buy new, you should expect the benefits of paying up, right?  Aside from buying what you like, you pay up to get those added benefits - the company standing behind your purchase.

@RickO posted:

Everyone has a source, nobody wants to say who.  If I knew something the last place I would even hint at it is on an internet forum.  If MTH didn't announce that it was closing would these recent product issues even be as popular.  What are people buying?  MTH product or the "last" MTH product. Makes me wonder but more power to those who can buy what they want and good for MTH for producing what they can.  It's a win-win.

@jjm posted:

If the retail price remains unchanged (yes, we all pay less than full retail, but still a lot more than used), is it worth buying stuff where the promised quality and warranty service might be in question?  If buying used, you take that chance all the time.  But if you pay up to buy new, you should expect the benefits of paying up, right?  Aside from buying what you like, you pay up to get those added benefits - the company standing behind your purchase.

I buy new so I know I get what I’d like. There’s not that guarantee with new.

@MartyE posted:

I’ll be seeing a guy who knows a lady that shops at the same grocery store that Mikes 3rd grade teachers plumber shops at so I’ll ask what’s going on at MTH next time.

I know that guy. Small world.

.

I have about 90 or so locomotives with about 80 being MTH Premier DCS.

I'm hopeful that parts and development or maintenance of DCS will continue, however will their be enough revenue in the future for an investor if DCS is no longer used in future locomotives?  If some or all of MTH's dies are bought by other manufacturers I'm sure they will use their own operating systems.    I have both DCS and Legacy and all the other remaining locomotive manufacturers all use Lionel's so what's the future of DCS other than repairs etc.  Will an investor be willing to invest in this portion of the business only to rely on repairs and charging for updates to DCS unless someone like Atlas or 3rd Rail decides to switch to DCS ?

Just thinking out loud, time will tell.

Yes  Thanks Atlas

@Paul Finn

Time (and my reliable crystal ball 🤣) have spoken:

Atlas Acquires Select M.T.H Locomotive and Rolling Stock Molds

@H1000 posted:

@Paul Finn

Time (and my reliable crystal ball 🤣) have spoken:

Atlas Acquires Select M.T.H Locomotive and Rolling Stock Molds

Hillside, NJ – Atlas Model Railroad Company, Inc. is proud to announce the purchase of a variety of tooling in the M.T.H. Premier O Scale Locomotive and Rolling Stock lines from M.T.H. Electric Trains of Columbia, MD.

Rolling stock molds acquired include the 4-Bay Hopper, Coalporter Hopper, PS2CD High Side Hopper, 40' PS1 Box Car, 55' All Door Box Car, 2-Bay Centerflow Hopper, 3-Bay Centerflow Hopper , Steel Caboose , 50' High Cube Box Car , PS2 2-Bay Hopper, 20,000 Gallon Tank Car, 50' Airslide Hopper, Russell Plow, 8000 Gallon Tank Car, Funnel Flow Tank Car, Modern Tank Car, Crane, Crane Tender, 100 Ton Hot Metal Car, Rapid Discharge Hopper, 75' Depressed Flat Car, Scale Test Car, 2-Bay Offset Hopper, Operating Coal and Log Dump Car, Premiere 70' Heavyweight Passenger Cars, Premiere 70' Streamline Passenger Cars and Amfleet Cars.

Locomotive molds include the E6A/B and E8A/B, 44 Tonner, Amtrak P42 Genesis, Dash 9, SD45, F40, U30C, SD70M-2 with SD70Ace, GP38-2, SD70ACe, SD70MAC, GP40, S2, SD40-2, GP30, ES44AC&DC with ES44DC and GEVO ES-44.

In addition, Atlas has also acquired the following accessories from MTH’s Railking Line: Water Column, 22 figure sets, Operating Traffic Light, Motorcycle Pack, Pedestrian Crosswalk, Floodlight Tower, Sanding Tower, Road signs, Telephone Poles and the Operating Modern Crossing Signal.

Atlas has also acquired a license for the MTH Proto-Sound 3 Sound & Control Electronics Boards, which adds realistic sounds to locomotives and also allows control via DCS (Digital Command System). Part of the license will give Atlas the option to sell DCS components as well.

"MTH has long been an outstanding manufacturer of model trains and we are excited to continue that legacy," said Jarrett Haedrich, COO of Atlas. "We will be working closely with the existing supplier to ensure that the models are produced and delivered in a timely fashion." The first model to be produced will be announced Wednesday, March 24th.

M.T.H. Electric Trains was founded in 1980 by Mike Wolf as a mail order train business. Over the years it grew into a full manufacturing business with full lines of O, HO and S scale trains and track. In June 2020, Mike Wolf announced he was retiring and that M.T.H. would be closing in May of 2021.

Founded in 1924 and incorporated in 1949 as Atlas Tool Co. Inc., present day Atlas Model Railroad Co. produces locomotives, rolling stock, track, and accessories in N, HO and O scales for its Atlas Master, Atlas Classic, Trainman, and Atlas O lines.

Thank you for posting this interesting update. It’s good to know the MTH tooling will have. A second life.

I also think this should end definitively any speculation that MTH is going to continue as MTH under new ownership. It’s playing out just a s Mike Wolf told everyone it would.