Blackwater Canyon Line - November 17, 2024 - Scratch Built Church

JD,  Thank you for the copy of Ace's plan.  I miss Ace.   Looking at Dave's rendition a few hours later, I see a lot of similarities.  We have considered the idea of staging/holding yards underneath, and I am going to pass on that idea.  I think I would rather pull cars and engines off the shelf or build roll out/slide out shelves or drawers as John suggested a few months ago.  Thank you.

William and Rich, You raise a good point as we all acknowledge no matter how much thinking and planning we do, we will make changes, perhaps major changes, once we get at it.  One thing I can say is that I have never been comfortable with the pop up access holes.  That said, the latest plan before yesterday needs revamped before moving forward.  As an aside over the summer and fall, I didn't have time to start construction anyway.  I do plan to start right after the first of the year.  Thank you very much for your 'prodding'.  

John, At lunch time today I was fiddling with the latest plan Dave posted yesterday, trying again to give the turntable idea a fair shot.  What I see is that a turntable and a holding track for an engine takes up 1/3 of 2 of my 3 walls. I even put the turntables one in the corner, and the other next to the small door, and folded the engine tracks back but that cuts in on the sidings where he thinks I'm going to build trains.  I want to put in some buildings, so I don't want to fill the space with track.  While the balloon loops do extend pretty far from the walls, I think we can adjust everything to have pretty good access.  Even if I had a whole basement to work with and ran point to point, I would always provide some kind of continuous running.  Yes, I could get my continuous running fix in the next room on my Ceiling Central RR.  I spent too many years crawling on the floor and squeezing into electronic equipment cabinets and frames, that my knees bark back at me at the slightest hint of getting on the floor.  I also have trouble straightening back up.  I am afraid it will not get better, and will only get worse. 

Dave sent me an e-mail a while ago with a possible change to the plan he posted yesterday.  He did that to see if he was on a track I liked before developing it further.  I think it is a pretty good plan to get me going.

I do honestly appreciate everyone's comments, and thought them all over again since yesterday.  Thank you so much!!

Dave,

Both of those ideas have merit.  No the grades aren't too steep.  The real Blackwater grade was 3.4% I believe, and I tested all my engines pulling about 6 cars up 6% I believe it was with no trouble.  It's back there on page 3 or 4 or 5 or somewhere.  (William and Rich may be on to something there)   Ah, who cares; I'm having fun!

Back to the plans.  The passing siding with the 'extension' for lack of a better word, looks like something one may see on a tight mountain railroad.  The real Blackwater had a turnout partway down at Lime Rock, but not a passing siding. I printed them both off.  Call me a relic, call me what you will; I can 'see' things better on paper than the computer screen.  

Here is what the yard at Thomas looked like once upon a time.  We were there in August, and it is just a grassy area with the bike trail running through it like it was back in '95 or '96 the last time we were there.

Here is the switch at Lime Rock, partway down the grade.  

I'm looking for that photograph I sent Dave I scanned from a magazine of a large model railroad of two lines hugging a mountain slope, the lower one being at least two tracks.  I must have saved it elsewhere on my cloud drive.  Anyway, that would be the view looking through the big window connecting the laundry with the train room.  That vantage point is at the bottom of the drawings.  Anyway, when I find it, I'll post it, because it is pretty cool.

Her'e that view into the train room from the laundry I mentioned in the last post.  The mountainside with the yard or passing track is on the left where the work table is right now.  Pretty cool I think.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark, here are a couple of alternate configurations. The 1st has a slight change to the passing siding to let you run longer trains and still be able to pass. The 2nd swaps the passing siding for a small storage yard and increases the elevation to 6". The grades for both might be too high, but I didn't know how small of a grade you were wiling to accept. 

Dave,

I think this one is the one with another storage track at each end.  The yard with the coal hoppers is at the top of the drawing (yellow), the siding is in the middle (the green passing track), and another track at the lower (blue) end.  Yes, I may lay it out on the floor after Thanksgiving.  Thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

Here's a version using all Ross switches. There are 4 cut pieces (labeled) in this version, but that will change as you build. Right now the tracks along the top/bottom are too close to the wall, so adjustments will need to be made along the left grade and both parts of the passing siding.

I'm still not happy with the siding in the upper right because the Ross O42 switch footprint is so much different than the GarGraves O42 switch, but that's something you can decide. That siding is also in the opposite direction from the others, so it will be harder to service unless you run a train in the opposite direction to service it. There also isn't room for 2 buildings, so I'm not sure I wouldn't have just 1 longer siding vs the 2 shorter sidings. I'd also be inclined to delete the curve in the siding in the lower right to get rid of the small S curve there and give a little more separation for buildings.

Dave,

I see what you mean on all counts.  Yes, I was aware that as drawn the top and bottom are too close to the walls, but figured that no plan is an etched in stone affair, and some pieces will need cut and trimmed to make it all fit.  As to the switches, I have some Ross and some GarGraves on hand, so I will try to fit sidings accordingly.  What I planned for the siding on the extreme upper right is that it would be an engine track (I may try to fit a small 1 stall engine house there) where the engine would pull in front facing the corner, then when it backs out through the switch and comes around to couple onto the cars in the 2-track yellow yard, all would be in order.  (I'm just calling the locations by color now, since it is easier for everyone to understand.  I have names for all these places in my mind that will be marked on the fascia when the layout is built that far.)

I hadn't thought much about the S-curve on the blue yard tracks, but you are absolutely right.  At low speeds it may not matter, but there may be that one or two ornery car that isn't quite as well suspended on it's trucks that could possibly derail.  The tracks forming a wye configuration will work because the intent there is for a couple unrelated industries, whereas the yard tracks in yellow are intended to be like the coal marshaling photographs in yesterday's post.  That all works out swell.

I may or may not put in both spurs on the green passing track, but I like the idea of one.  Of course the scenery will be such that the proximity to the yellow and blue loops will be at different elevations and camouflaged in such a way that they won't seem to be in the same scene.  I like that ...daz4.scarm plan a lot.

On to another note.  I have been seriously considering mounting the table tops to brackets fastened to the studs in the walls.  Then I would have legs supporting the two loops that stick out into the room.  I realized after I took down the shelving our daughter had installed on the walls, that it wasn't a big deal to patch the holes before repainting.  I can hardly tell myself where the holes were.  I even found steel brackets at Home Depot that reach out 20" from the wall and the claim is they will hold 1000 pounds at less than $10 each.  The reviews are amazing as to what people have stored on the shelves and what expensive items they have put under the shelves without fear of anything breaking.  I am going to buy two brackets this weekend, mount them somewhere and 'load them up' as a test.  I also have to finish tearing apart the 'mighty' workbench at my mother-in-law's and bring pieces over to my house.  I can even unbolt it and I have double supporting legs for the two loops already pre-fab, so to speak!!  Also remember, the workbench has two 12' long sheets of Homasote on it, I am going to cut into more manageable sizes to get over to our house.  I think I can build this thing at a really discounted price, with a lot of the heavy carpentry eliminated or pre-fab.

That all sounds good, Mark. I had forgotten what track you already have and was too lazy to look back through the thread. Like you said, those details aren't so important because adjustments will have to be made as you build. I did want to show you the difference though.

There are other S curves in the passing siding. Those can be minimized by substituting Ross #11 switches, but I didn't like how it looked, so I didn't include a photo.

I don't like legs, so that has always been my problem with the Mianne bench work. I have little doubt you can support the layout with the brackets you described. Good luck with the test.

I added the additional extension to the passing track mostly because I misread your earlier comment. However, after I added it, my thought now is to be able to pull all the way in on one extension, then back all the way into the other extension and be ready to pull out without clogging the main. Without the 2nd extension, you have to back far enough past the switch blocking the main so you can pull out. Just food for thought.

Train pulled in:

Train getting ready to pull out w/o using upper extension blocking main:

Train getting ready to pull out using upper extension w/o blocking main:

Dave,

You are right you did misread, but after looking at the plan, I started thinking the extra tracks may crowd too much.  No problem, I can put them in or not.

Yes, I see how the train could work in that siding.  Thank you.  Looks good!

Mark, finally getting back to your thread. Your patience in designing is noteworthy as well as the advice from other critical thinkers.  Dave's comments are well thought out. Can't wait for your construction to start.

Almost a year.....screw any wood together yet ?...That's what I find frustrating about this hobby...dream of the ultimate configuration....and the next week,another idea pops up...it's a viscous cycle,we torture ourselves with...lol

Pennsynut and Nessmuck, thank you for your comments.  

Well yes patience out of necessity may have led to analysis paralysis too.  Ha ha!  I wanted to get started building mid year, but health problems for both my parents, hospital stays, care giving, and finally personal care home consumed a lot of time this year.  That on top of helping my wife's mother and my aunt, then upkeep of Dad's house and grounds and this year has flown by.

So was the delay in starting construction good or bad.  You saw I rethought the plan I "finalized " last spring, to another eliminating the need for access hatches on the right wall.  Which plan is the best for me?  

Nessmuck, This past weekend, I did some measuring of the workbench at my mother-in-law's that i am going to take apart and use for parts of my layout.  I have decided to start with the section at the bottom of the plan that is basically the same on both plans. I plan to start right after Christmas with that.  At that point, I will start a topic in the 3-rail section of the Forum since the planning will be done.  Then it will be changes as I build.

 Thank you for your patience, I know my patience is getting tried as well!  LOL

Mark Boyce posted:

Pennsynut and Nessmuck, thank you for your comments.  

Well yes patience out of necessity may have led to analysis paralysis too.  Ha ha!  I wanted to get started building mid year, but health problems for both my parents, hospital stays, care giving, and finally personal care home consumed a lot of time this year.  That on top of helping my wife's mother and my aunt, then upkeep of Dad's house and grounds and this year has flown by.

So was the delay in starting construction good or bad.  You saw I rethought the plan I "finalized " last spring, to another eliminating the need for access hatches on the right wall.  Which plan is the best for me?  

Nessmuck, This past weekend, I did some measuring of the workbench at my mother-in-law's that i am going to take apart and use for parts of my layout.  I have decided to start with the section at the bottom of the plan that is basically the same on both plans. I plan to start right after Christmas with that.  At that point, I will start a topic in the 3-rail section of the Forum since the planning will be done.  Then it will be changes as I build.

 Thank you for your patience, I know my patience is getting tried as well!  LOL

Almost there Mark. Can't wait to see the start of construction.

Bob

Thank you, Bob!!  Me too!  :-)

Hi Mark,

No one will ever fault you for doing God's work in caring for aging parents and relatives! Many of us have been there and the difference in importance between family and just a hobby becomes very clear.

You will likely find that no matter how much you think, design and redesign that your eventual layout will have some compromises that will irk you. My only suggestion is to list your priorities and go with the design that covers the most important ones. 

We all wrestle with space issues, room conformation, features we want to squeeze in, etc. Compromises result. My priority was a layout than "runs" well. But, there are regrets afterward. However, all things considered, I'm lucky to have a nice layout at this point in my life. Now if I would only finish the scenery....

Good luck with your planning, and I look forward to your construction and completed layout photos.

Fred

Yup....life can get in the way...it will be 2 years since my wife and I got our lives back from caring for her father....and all the sibling fighting is ovah....until the next shoe drops...lol..look forward to your progress.

Thank you Fred and Nessmuck!!!

I have been waiting a long time for a room to become available.  Finally our last daughter married and moved out.  I actually gained an empty room.  

You are right about issues that will pop up building the layout.  At least this will be the first that is actually drawn out with some level off accuracy for a starting point.

I can't thank Dave enough for helping me on this!!

Mark,

   Go for it and have fun building, enjoy your new Train Room!

Merry Christmas buddy.

PCRR/Dave

Hi Mark

   All the plans contributed look awesome. I would start the benchwork and start playin around with the track.

Thats what did....lol. I sent a variation of similar plans but using grades

Al

Mark, I saw your post in another thread about your concern for building locations, specifically the Menard's Power building. I found 2 such buildings on the Menard's site, the largest being 9"x17". So, I decided to use it as a template and added several around the layout so you could see where buildings of a similar or smaller footprint might fit. It's just something to help you visualize spacing not to make any decisions.

Al, Thank you!  I commented on the plan in the email.  

Dave,  Thank you for looking at where the power station could fit.  For me, I thought I would like to place it at the upper level town because the real power station I once worked at is located a few miles north of Thomas and Davis along the top of Allegheny Mountain.  I'm thinking the location in the middle near the small window would work since I'm hoping to fit a small engine house over the siding in the corner.

I guess this is the first I mentioned that I worked at the power station here.  I wrote extensively about it on Trainman2001's "Continuing Saga..." topic when he was building his power substation a couple years ago.  

One plus on the Menards station is that it has a pull through track bay, which the real Mount Storm Power Station has, so it saves space.  

Thank you, Dave.

You're welcome, Mark. I'm sure you'll make adjustments as you build, but I wanted to give you some idea of the space you'll have, depending on how closely you follow the design. Building/accessory placement is always difficult for me to envision and I envy those who can "see" it.

Not doing the multilevel plan?  Kind of a  bummer.  This one is a piece of cake.  Buy all the curves, switches and long straights, start at the crossover section in the middle and go from there.  Lay it out on the floor on red rosin paper to get your actual benchwork dimensions and start making sawdust.  No reason trains couldn't be running in ..... days.  Power drops, switch wiring and tweaking to follow, BUT, get running trains!  

Laying out and framing, four days, track down and simple wiring done one day.  Running trains end of fifth day.  Having fun, more to follow.  Cheers.

Dave, Yes, I have trouble envisioning building placement and how much room they will take also.  Then you think it will fit and overhang from the longest car or cab roof hits the corner of a building roof, and the building doesn't fit.  That's why many folks make cardboard mockups then build to suit the location.  Well, I have a bunch of buildings I want to use.  Cart before the horse.  

William, For one, as my arthritis, both rheumatoid ans osteo gives me more trouble, I just don't want to fool with access hatches.  Second, the serpentine down the mountain doesn't resonate with the Blackwater Canyon where the grade doesn't double back.  I was having trouble envisioning a couple of scenic areas I mentioned months ago.  That said, the steps you outlined are good, and the plan is to start building on the end at the bottom of the drawings in January.  Please stay tuned!  

I always appreciate your encouragement!  

It's still a multi-level design with a 5" rise, it just doesn't snake around like the original design did in order to avoid the need for access hatches.

Thank you Dave for pointing out it is still multi-level.  I was going to make that comment in reply to William's comment, then forgot by the time I finished typing.  

What is that they say about short term memory???

I don't know, I forgot.

Is there any possibility of tunneling through one or two of the walls to gain additional ROW?

A staging siding / display shelf in an adjacent area.

Any thought for an elevated unconnected RDC/trolley/Wild Goose loop?

Subway?

Mark:  

All the new Menard's buildings are super nice!  Just keep in mind that if you put them in front of your track they become quite an obstacle.  Be sure you can pick them up when needed or have a way to reach-around.  :-)

Tom, This room is an addition on the back of the basement level of a brick house.  It has a sun room above it on the first floor.  Three walls are exterior walls, and the fourth wall at the bottom of the diagrams is cement block and brick.  We discussed the idea of going through the open window (which was the exterior of the original house) which leads to the laundry (right over the washer and dryer), but the laundry is very narrow, and there isn't enough room to put even a staging yard.

I do have the Ceiling Central RR looping around the family room that is right outside the door adjacent to the laundry room.  I have 054 curves on it.  Others have suggested running a connection through the door to an overhead line in the room in question.  That could be done, but I'm not thinking of it right now.

I don't want to fool with a subway, a lot of it under the main table top, but a higher short unconnected logging line could be done.  

Thank you for all the ideas.

John,

I am planning to make all buildings removable this go round.  I fastened a lot of buildings down to the scenery on my last layout, and wished I hadn't, even for just when I wanted to remove them to make changes.  It was a mess and some were damaged.  So no matter whether the building is in the front, or even a building flat against the backdrop.

Thank you for all the warning tips you give modelers.  Sometimes they don't apply in some cases, they are all valuable.  And this one is definitely a tip I would advise for everyone too!

It is past time for an update here.  I did get started with construction this month.  First I tore out an old 10 x 4 workbench at my mother-in-law's basement, and brought all the parts over here.  Here is an inventory of the major parts.

2 rolling ends on casters that I left intact, built of 2 x 4s with 1/4" plywood as sides

4 10x1 x 8’ boards to be ripped into 1x4s and 1x3s

4 8x1 x 3’ boards

2 10x4 sheets of ½” Homasote

1 8x3 sheet of Masonite – no holes

2 2x4 x 10’

2 2x4 x 3’

1 8x3 sheet of ¼” plywood

I built a rolling base of the two sides, replacing the casters with new locking 3" casters.  The purpose of making it rolling is that I will make it removable from the long narrower shelf so I can swing it out and get behind it for access.  No need for pop up access now.

As you can see Unfortunately, it is not as high as I want to be able to look through the window onto the layout height from the laundry room.  The window sill is 45" above the floor.  I debated whether to make the roll around base higher, but decided to put in joists running parallel to the brick wall, and then put in perpendicular stringers.  On the other side where I will have to build the whole thing from scratch, I will make the rolling base higher.

Anyway, here is the whole support with sections of particle board I salvaged from an old book case just laying uncut on top to get an idea of what it will look like.

The blue tape on the floor is roughly where the edges of the layout will fall.  I know this isn't pretty, but I am a below average carpenter, using free wood, and once it is painted, track and scenery is on top, and a facia and covering to the floor is installed, no one will know the difference.  What matters to me is that it is level, solid, but rolls freely when I unlock the four casters.  

I'll post more what I was going to write later.  I just got a call to go see my aunt in the personal care home.

I didn't do much, but I did lay some track down on the tabletop to see about cutting the rest of the table top wood.  It will work out nicely!

Wow looks great, Mark! Will your diorama in the back get to be part of the layout?

Baby steps, Mark, baby steps!

George

Thank you, George!  Thank you, JD!!

I am not intending the diorama to be part of the layout.  I want to be able to carry it easily out the door to the adjacent patio for daylight photography.  Also, I’m trying some scenic effects since I haven’t built scenery for many years.  I have the diorama resting on the first two wall brackets for the layout.  I decided to build the layout higher so someone can look through the window from the laundry onto the layout easier.  I will raise the brackets about 6 inches to match this part of the layout.

The diorama is a neat idea. I might do something similar to refine my scenery skills before I tackle the entire layout. It's amazing how realistic model RR pictures can be with natural light. 

I think raising the layout is a good move too. Doing the laundry won't seem like a chore anymore looking out into the Blackwater Canyon!

It looking good Mark! I like the height change for the view! You will be able to do laundry and watch trains at the same time!

Mrs. B: "Mark, how many loads of laundry are you going to do today?"

Mark: "I'm almost finished with the Smith's, then I'll start in on the Peterson's next.  Do any of our other neighbors need their laundry done?  I might need to be down here all day."

Thank you Mike and JD!!  Yes it is convenient for doing laundry!!   I had a load in the washer and one in the dryer when I was laying out the track and shot the photograph yesterday!    You may not have seen this before, but my mother-in-law lives just down the road withing walking distance for her.  I had better watch it, since I got all that wood from her basement, she may say I forgot to take the wash!!  

Getting closer on your project. Can't wait for more photos.