Everyone,
I have just read all the many great comments to date! Thank you everyone. I will comment and question later, but I see my lunch break is over, and I will have to go back on the clock! 
Mark: Just a short note: you don't have to worry about the window. On the Glacier Line there are three (3) windows that you never see. Two are behind the backdrop. The pieces of backdrop in front of both windows may be removed in seconds. You can do the same. It will save you the expense/trouble and the "next" people who live there would probably prefer a window to a train layout. People have no taste!
Mark, I always get concerned when someone says they have a small space where they want to run O72 curves, especially for a passenger train. Unfortunately, O72 doesn't leave much room for anything else when it comes to things like logging and coal operations. Since your better half suggested joining up with the ceiling layout in the other room have you considered expanding the ceiling layout into the new space and using it for your passenger run? You could come into the new space where there'd be a cityscape on the wall, perhaps with bas relief storefronts, etc., and a passenger station. Moving the larger equipment off the main layout would free it up for the logging and coal operations, perhaps on separate levels. Using O54 or even O42 curves gives you a lot more space for loop2loop, folded dog bones, etc. Here's a very early design I did for 10.8x12 using O31 ScaleTrax to show how much or how little track will fit that space. I don't have it in SCARM, but could convert it easy enough and change it to GG/Ross O42/O54, but I offer it just for idea value. FWIW, the bridges were going to be lift-outs and the blue would have been a fold down panel.
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Hi Mark.
I've done designs for small rooms that support O-72 down to 10x10. Spurs could be added to the straight sections as desired and the layout could be re-done as a single lap tri-oval. This particular one is 48" radius (O-96)
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Mark,
I would love to have 144 Sq ft. I am looking at about 100 Sq ft. I am not looking at as an aggressive layout as you.
I am looking at putting in a second and 3Rd level of track for more trains and buildings.
Joe Gozzo
I appreciate all responses! I put out the list of all I would like just to see what responses I would get. I agree, the list is too much for the space. Yes I could stack levels, but I think it would be a bit overwhelming, both to build, but to operate too.
I agree the big passenger trains would overwhelm any scenes in 12x12. I am not happy with how I did the corners on the Ceiling Central and have seen some ways to improve them. I could make them a little wider to handle the big passenger engines and cars.
Mark Boyce posted:I appreciate all responses! I put out the list of all I would like just to see what responses I would get. I agree, the list is
The list is...??????????????????????? :-) Don't keep us in suspense man!
John C. posted:Mark Boyce posted:I appreciate all responses! I put out the list of all I would like just to see what responses I would get. I agree, the list is
The list is...??????????????????????? :-) Don't keep us in suspense man!
Ha, ha! I hit the wrong button and it posted. That's what I get for using the cell phone to type. lol. You got the first part. I'll post more in a bit. It is good.
John,
Well I am sorry you and I both will have to stay in suspense until tomorrow. I had to attend to elderly family members' matters and don't have time to write what I want!
thank you immensely for your interest!!!!
I'm back. John, have you been in my mind or have some kind of surveillance into my past? 
Your information about the Western Maryland, the Blackwater Canyon and the action around it is something I researched many years ago. Long before I worked at Mt. Storm Power Station not far from Davis in the early '90s, I had come upon the WM and liked it. Once we moved to Keyser, WV and I started working on the mountain, I did quite a bit of investigation. So much so, that once we moved back to Pennsylvania in '96, I planned an HO layout based on a lot of what you have shared. I got some benchwork up and a little track, bought some HO Western Maryland engines and freight cars, and ran them on the first track. Alas, we decided to buy a smaller house, and with our family's growing activities, I never went any further. Then in this house without a layout, I started looking at O scale, bought a building kit and liked the larger size. Then I bought a Bachmann On30 shay and a three-pack of log cars. I liked it. However, I kept realizing I liked the B&O, and the N&W, and our local Bessemer & Lake Erie, and, and...
It was about that time, I picked up an O Gauge Railroading magazine in a grocery store of all places. I had never seen the magazine before probably even as a 12-year old I shied away from "toy trains". Scale modeling was my thing. I was impressed, I saw the article on Dave Minarik's layout in his Mercer Junction Train Shoppe, just 45 minute drive from home, which I visited a week or two later, and the rest is how I ended up here.
I initially had thoughts of having an On30 logging line along with O gauge 3-rail, but as I got so interested in Premier and current Lionel offerings, interest in the On30 waned and I sold it to buy 3-rail.
So, I wrote all that to say, you have opened a concept for a layout that I have already researched pretty thoroughly, but need to refresh my memory. I am with you on basing the operations on something like the Blackwater Grade, Davis, etc. I can picture Davis in my mind, and where I saw where the trains went is if I had taken photographs. I have plenty of smaller engines and cars. The only things long are the Premier N&W J and 4 Lionel Powhatan Arrow cars and the Cincinatian with 5 cars. I never intended to buy anything that big, but I had seen the J under steam back in the early '90s, chased it on the old Southern route from Alexandria to Charlotesville. I loved that train. While living in Keyser, I also researched the old 17-mile grade to Oakland, Maryland, and met an old timer who modeled B&O in HO. He lived a block from the old B&O tracks, and said he used to watch the Cincinatian. He had an early brass model of the train in Ho and ran it for me. That along with reading about it, made it special. In both cases, I just happened on fantastic deals on the O gauge models I bought.
I need to rebuild the Ceiling Central RR in the corners, which I am not happy with. I just need to make them a little wider to handle the broader curves for the two passenger train. Everyone is correct, they don't fit into a concept for the main layout in the new room. I could run them through the door into the ceiling area of the new room, or leave them just in the small family room. Either would work.
Now on to the operating accessories. Guess what? The temporary Christmas layout is built on the top of a 4x8 x2" sheet of foam, sitting on top of a heavy duty folding banquet table; the kind of table churches and fire halls like to buy. Just what you mentioned. My wife already suggested I keep tat layout, reconfigure it as I want. I could keep it as a Christmas layout for now, and since no grandchildren are on the way, I would have time to make sure all the accessories are in operating order. I could then set that up anywhere for kids on something lower or even the floor. I might like to put a log unloader, sawmill or something on the main room for fun.
I see it is 1:00 again. Well at my next chance, I want to respond to Dave, Jim, and others.
Thank you so much for joining me on this adventure!! 
Okay Mark....so we are on the same wave length! I loved the Blackwater Canyon concept and how cool is that you know about Davis and the Canyon! Even in your space, you CAN come up with an ultra realistic look! I can picture some stone arch supports as the train(s) makes it through the canyon. I will work on a track arrangement for you. I've got a couple of ideas envisioned.
I need to know: Can you build a life out, hinged or otherwise swing section across the glass doors?--the side that slides open. EXACTLY, where is the glass door positioned on the wall...how long is the wall that it's on and at what point from the corner does the door the sling door start--from BOTH sides. I need to know exactly. If you can't construct something like that--no problem just considering ALL options.
HOW TALL ARE you? How high is your ceiling?
I'm planning the track arrangement in mind with a Western & Maryland 44 tonner or an old time 0-4-0 pulling a string of 4 to 5 cars, no longer than ten inches in length (shorter better), plus a caboose (A bobber 4 wheel caboose) hauling open hoppers and flats with logs) up street grades and sharp curves. Those two MTH PREMIER engines will go around ridiculously tight curves and look decent; which is EXACTLY what you need in that space.
I'm excited about the idea of the Blackwater Canyon Line (BCL)!
I would recommend keep the ceiling central in the other room. If it runs the ceiling it will distract from the BCL. Your backdrop should go to the ceiling---how high is the ceiling?
And the two-inch foam issue with Christmas layout is perfect for future grandkids in ANOTHER room. You should keep that room floor to ceiling SOLEY dedicated to the BCL.
Lastly, there's just so much to ask: "How many light fixtures are on the ceiling of that room?" Depending on the track configuration, it would be IDEAL (not required) to have spot lights that can be dimmed and brightened so that you may adjust according to your needs.
Too much to digest already...
John C. posted:Okay Mark....so we are on the same wave length!
I need to know: Can you build a life out, hinged or otherwise swing section across the glass doors?--the side that slides open. EXACTLY, where is the glass door positioned on the wall...how long is the wall that it's on and at what point from the corner does the door the sling door start--from BOTH sides. I need to know exactly. If you can't construct something like that--no problem just considering ALL options.
HOW TALL ARE you? How high is your ceiling?
I'm planning the track arrangement in mind with a Western & Maryland 44 tonner or an old time 0-4-0 pulling a string of 4 to 5 cars, no longer than ten inches in length (shorter better), plus a caboose (A bobber 4 wheel caboose) hauling open hoppers and flats with logs) up street grades and sharp curves. Those two MTH PREMIER engines will go around ridiculously tight curves and look decent; which is EXACTLY what you need in that space.
I'm excited about the idea of the Blackwater Canyon Line (BCL)!
I would recommend keep the ceiling central in the other room. If it runs the ceiling it will distract from the BCL. Your backdrop should go to the ceiling---how high is the ceiling?
And the two-inch foam issue with Christmas layout is perfect for future grandkids in ANOTHER room. You should keep that room floor to ceiling SOLEY dedicated to the BCL.
Lastly, there's just so much to ask: "How many light fixtures are on the ceiling of that room?" Depending on the track configuration, it would be IDEAL (not required) to have spot lights that can be dimmed and brightened so that you may adjust according to your needs.
Too much to digest already...
John,
You're recommendations do sound good. I still can't get over your suggestions of this theme that I researched and planned for over 15 years ago! Remarkable! I still like the overall theme at heart! I will answer all the questions you asked in a day or two. When I get the chance, I will look for my books, articles, etc.
"Too much to digest already" is right!
DoubleDAZ posted:Mark, I always get concerned when someone says they have a small space where they want to run O72 curves, especially for a passenger train. Unfortunately, O72 doesn't leave much room for anything else when it comes to things like logging and coal operations. Since your better half suggested joining up with the ceiling layout in the other room have you considered expanding the ceiling layout into the new space and using it for your passenger run? You could come into the new space where there'd be a cityscape on the wall, perhaps with bas relief storefronts, etc., and a passenger station. Moving the larger equipment off the main layout would free it up for the logging and coal operations, perhaps on separate levels. Using O54 or even O42 curves gives you a lot more space for loop2loop, folded dog bones, etc. Here's a very early design I did for 10.8x12 using O31 ScaleTrax to show how much or how little track will fit that space. I don't have it in SCARM, but could convert it easy enough and change it to GG/Ross O42/O54, but I offer it just for idea value. FWIW, the bridges were going to be lift-outs and the blue would have been a fold down panel.
Dave,
I do recall this plan that you were doing before you decided to make the plan for in the garage instead. I was captivated by what you were putting in a room the same size as mine. Also, it was very much like I had envisioned in my mind. Please hold off converting it to SCARM for now. I may ask you to later. As you can probably tell, my preliminary plan I attached at the beginning of this topic has a resemblance to yours.
AGHRMatt posted:Hi Mark.
I've done designs for small rooms that support O-72 down to 10x10. Spurs could be added to the straight sections as desired and the layout could be re-done as a single lap tri-oval. This particular one is 48" radius (O-96)
Matt,
That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level. As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves. I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always. Thank you as always!!
Mark, I just offered it to show how much track you can get in the space using smaller curves. I'm having a hard time visualizing a lower level for logging/coal and an upper level with a raised over/under run using O72 curves on top of it. But, I look forward to following this thread to see how things develop.
Dave,
I have a hard time visualizing things too, but we all have seen layouts that folks have pulled off tremendous vertical effects, whether track at many levels or just mountain scenes that are taller than you and me.
As one of my daughters always says, "I'm looking for some sanity" What is practical?
I am glad to have you following my project!!
Mark Boyce posted:
Matt,
That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level. As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves. I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always. Thank you as always!!
Mark, keep in mind that straight (i.e. tangent) track is really pretty rare compared to curved. Oh, I know that we like to see our trains on straight track--for me, it's a legacy of the ovals I had as a kid with only straight section on each side and n unfulfilled desire to see the train all stretched out. But, as a percentage of the total mileage, there really isn't as much tangent our there as we imagine.
palallin posted:Mark Boyce posted:Matt,
That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level. As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves. I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always. Thank you as always!!
Mark, keep in mind that straight (i.e. tangent) track is really pretty rare compared to curved. Oh, I know that we like to see our trains on straight track--for me, it's a legacy of the ovals I had as a kid with only straight section on each side and n unfulfilled desire to see the train all stretched out. But, as a percentage of the total mileage, there really isn't as much tangent our there as we imagine.
You do have good points, You made me think about where do we see the most dramatic photos? Leaning into a curve. Thank you!
Mark,
One thing to keep in mind is that your N&W J will operate on 0-54 curves. I have a SP 4449 and now NKP 765, both of which are about the same size as the J. If you can achieve 0-54 on your new layout, you'll at least be able to run all of your smaller stuff in addition to select larger locomotives. The overhang will be your biggest issue. It won't look prototypical, but it at least will fill the desire to run your big trains on the layout if you want. You have seen my layout in person. It is 7'x10'. I have achieved a decent amount in a small space using 0-54. The consolidation that I traded to you will look very nice on 0-54 as will any of your other shorter engines.
There are a lot of cool ideas posted so far. I like the thought of expanding your ceiling central to accommodate your biggest trains, but also keeping the minimum requirements for the main layout. Best of luck in selecting the winning design!
-Marc
I disagree with a general statement that tangent track is "rare" compared to curves. An NS track man told me the Pennsy had a policy of laying out tangents connected by curves. My time taking photos along the NS main line confirms that idea. Even in hilly Pa. state there are lots of tangents.
Mark Boyce posted:...
AGHRMatt posted:Hi Mark.
I've done designs for small rooms that support O-72 down to 10x10. Spurs could be added to the straight sections as desired and the layout could be re-done as a single lap tri-oval. This particular one is 48" radius (O-96)
Matt,
That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level. As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves. I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always. Thank you as always!!
I understand. This one is the 48" radius (O-96) version. You'd obviously gain more tangent track using smaller curves such as 36" radius (O-72).
