New Track Multi Level Plan O Scale HELP

Hi NSY,

That's a pretty good track plan for the space. You can run two trains, reverse directions and cross-over. It has play value and the bridge and tunnel add some visual appeal.

What is it that you want to do differently?

Two levels may look different, but it won't add to the play value. Just visualize the figure up about 7 or 8 inches. Closing in the lower level takes away the lower center for the visual appeal.

Perhaps just an elevated loop?

A different plan may lose the ability to run two trains.

Just looking for some input to help define the new plan.

Added the 4 x 3

Have a big loop, a helix to 10" with a 3.6% slope to an upper level. A train can loop on the upper or the lower or travel up and down.

Still more to do. The helix can be closed in. There's barely 4 3/4" height clearance in the helix.

I don't know. I wanted to see if I could add some interest.

Moonman posted:

Added the 4 x 3

Have a big loop, a helix to 10" with a 3.6% slope to an upper level. A train can loop on the upper or the lower or travel up and down.

Still more to do. The helix can be closed in. There's barely 4 3/4" height clearance in the helix.

I don't know. I wanted to see if I could add some interest.

Carl, is that accounting for the sub-roadbed? 1/2"? Now that I've decided to use O31 on my layout, I'm wondering if I couldn't add a helix to the over/under run I have in the middle of the lower level. I'm looking at a 14" climb though.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Moonman posted:

Added the 4 x 3

Have a big loop, a helix to 10" with a 3.6% slope to an upper level. A train can loop on the upper or the lower or travel up and down.

Still more to do. The helix can be closed in. There's barely 4 3/4" height clearance in the helix.

I don't know. I wanted to see if I could add some interest.

Carl, is that accounting for the sub-roadbed? 1/2"? Now that I've decided to use O31 on my layout, I'm wondering if I couldn't add a helix to the over/under run I have in the middle of the lower level. I'm looking at a 14" climb though.

Dave, you don't need sub-roadbed with Fastrack or RealTrax, just all thread rod and some thin cross supports. So, no, it doesn't account for sub-roadbed.

That's only a concept anyway. Making the helix an oval with short straights reduces the slope. Then, you can fit sub-roadbed under the track.

I built one by cutting the sub-roadbed from 3/16" luan. It supported it well enough.

The larger radius curves help a lot because of the length in reducing the slope. O36 is tough. I usually spiral O36.

By the way, I tried that on your track plan and didn't find enough width to fit a helix.

here's the 054 helix from the Eagle Scout project. It is 70" L x 60"W is O54 RealTrack with 15" of straight to make it oval. It has a 3% slope. We have a scale PA NYC diesel that barely clears. It connects 3 levels. There is only 6" between levels.

Moonman posted:

By the way, I tried that on your track plan and didn't find enough width to fit a helix.

here's the 054 helix from the Eagle Scout project. It is 70" L x 60"W is O54 RealTrack with 15" of straight to make it oval. It has a 3% slope. We have a scale FA NYC diesel that barely clears. It connects 3 levels. There is only 6" between levels.

I assume that was with the 14" height. Looking at my plan again, I was figuring from the top of the over/under and I see that the top level can be lower because it doesn't cover that part. The ends could also be lower than the back with a grade up to village level. Even if I still can't do a helix, I may make those adjustments to see what it would look like. I also just noticed that the over/under is actually at 8" because I didn't account for the thickness of the base. I suspect that I can lower it to 6" and be just fine with the equipment I want to run on that track.

SCARM is free and relatively easy to use, especially if you find a plan to modify to your liking.

"That 4x3 add on I need in middle of 12 foot due to limited space near wall area, so I can get around table for working space. "

Where exactly would you like to expand the table? I have attached some possibilities, edge or center. or cut the 4' x 3' into 6" strips and make the table 6'6"W.

I thought you would want to use existing track, but if you are open to getting larger curves, that would create some design change possibilities. The 6'W x 12'L is essentially an O48/036 table. I don't like O60, it has no partial curves and the switches are not the same as an O60 curve.

What I can do is base it on O48 /O36 and work some larger radius curves into the shape for something more than  half circles.

If you run the length of the table for and up/down to a second level, it will be a 4.8%-5% slope. 7"/144"= 4.86. Ok, but not optimal. Still want an upper level?

Do you have a link to TMack's thread. I don't recall the old table so well. I helped on some of the new table in a tight area that was L- shaped.

I have attached some diagrams to help with the placement of the expansion.

Happy New Year!

Ok, I found Ted's layout, here. he went with partial coverage of the lower table with the elevated area and partial elevated line to compromise.

I see what you are looking for now.  The levels are separated from one another. Do you want them connected? You are already using the steep climb with the MTH trestles. If your trains have no problems with that, the levels can be connected.

He used the expansion to create length for the sidings. Where can we do that?

Ok, add to the transformer end or the other end? The small yard could use that space. Move into it on an angle from the main table.

Do you like the partial 2nd level for a city or some scene, then an elevated. TMack's looks nice.  if I put a loop with a return on the 2nd level, a separate train could run up there, like in my example. Something a little more shaped.

I am thinking that we modify the shape of the outer loop to allow a long run to 2nd level, keep the figure 8 for reversing and go from the there. perhaps modify the shape of 8 also. It will add some interest more that the ovals.

I'll do some concept work and put it up.

Mostly O48 lower/outer,  O36 figure 8/lower inner and see what looks good on top. Thinking of mixing in some larger radius curves here and there to help shape and give the trains a better look.

Take a close look at Tmack's elevated supports. The routered channel makes it seem girder like.

NSY,

   I got to tell ya I really liked your original layout, in fact I would leave that fantastic engineering as is, and add a 2nd level independent of the 1st, granted this will take some engineering planning, and may take some custom FasTrack cutting, however it would look real neat, add a couple 072 Command Control Switches to your 2nd level and do your custom layout as you did before.  The engineering should come out great. If you want to get a little more complex add an an inner oval of RealTrax to your 2nd level as I did around the Bear Christmas Tree on our Christmas layout.

PCRR/Dave

Not seasoned yet posted:

Yes we could add to the other end since I have no room an transformer end.  I do like the partial 2end level to add scenes.  It sound  great !  would you go with the 036 curves or bigger ?  Thanks Carl !

 

I was going to place the elevated deck for the scenery at the far end. If the yard is there, you won't be able to see it from the transformer.

So, perhaps move some of the elevated section onto the 4 x 3 extension to make room for the yard spurs in front of the transformer.

just a small curve ball. Have to see how it works out.

NSY,

Here is a new idea. 4' x 3' extension added to end opposite transformer. TMack's concept. two separate loops. can go up and down. can reverse direction. Two sidings to park complete short trains or cars. Uses half an MTH trestle set (40-1113) to climb to 6.5" or you can make them. Slope is 4.7%, which you have been running.

Room for scenic items on upper and lower. I hope it works and you like it.

Wow !  Sure looks great !  Has all I wanted and more.  I think this will work out great.  Can't wait to get started.  As I am looking at this (3D) is it one track connection or two separate lines of each other.   It looks like one line but not sure of the up grade part through tunnel.   I will figure it out.   Thanks so much !  Wonderful to have part list too guess I need to go shopping !  I will try to update as I go Bu it will be a long process for me.  God Bless !

It's all one line. The lower level uses the tunnels. The climb and the upper can be separated electrically for conventional running. It will just loop in one direction. That's all TMack had. The last 10" piece or first 10" on the climb, could be replaced with a 5" and a 5" block (6-12060) for the second power district.(2nd handle on the Z-4000)

The spurs have 1 3/8" at the start for power control.

Same if you are running all command engines, just no need to separate electrically.

I did forget to work in 1 3/8" pieces for DCS blocks, but I think there's enough of them scattered throughout the layout to create the blocks.

You can cut down the track count by making custom straights to eliminate to small fitters. I have attached the LCCA Module specs. In the appendix, is the "how to" for making those custom pieces.

I'll take a few more moments later and mark the lengths in case you choose to do that. I'll also mark out the blocks for DCS if you'd like me to do that.

if you have a windows computer, download SCARM and install it. I'll post the file for you. Then you can easily identify the tracks and view the 3D without learning the whole act, print the track plan and parts list, etc. Let me know.

We could take out the climb and keep it as an addition later and just make an upper and lower line. That would save on some track and a switch.

Charles,

here's the two levels only version which can be expanded to include the previous climb and reverse on the upper loop. Same feel, less track, easier build.

I downloaded the SCARM thanks I will look at it to find the drawing and print it.  I would like to keep the one track idea with this and can now see the workings.  Where would the blocks go ?  I don't want to sound dumb,  but a lot of this is new to me about the Module point. What exactly is that ? To cut the tracks to fit in spaces ?  Also about the spurs have 1 3/8 at start for power control ? I am sorry about my lack of understanding terms and such.  I know its probably simple but I am very much still learning all this.  Like I said I did my first layout by eye and learned the scenery designed by youtube and woodland scenics websites.  Electric was a big challenge too but again websites, I did it right, but had to take my time so please be patient with me on this.  I really do appreciate your help for my new layout and hope to learn more. ( So glade for a parts list)  I have to figure the top section for specs and such so I will look at  TMACKS pictures.  

right -click the attachment and select 'save as" to your computer. When it lands, right-click it and slect open with, then point it to SCARM.

You'll be all set.

the two layout versions are attached.

Not seasoned yet posted:

I downloaded the SCARM thanks I will look at it to find the drawing and print it.  I would like to keep the one track idea with this and can now see the workings.  Where would the blocks go ?  I don't want to sound dumb,  but a lot of this is new to me about the Module point. What exactly is that ? To cut the tracks to fit in spaces ?  Also about the spurs have 1 3/8 at start for power control ? I am sorry about my lack of understanding terms and such.  I know its probably simple but I am very much still learning all this.  Like I said I did my first layout by eye and learned the scenery designed by youtube and woodland scenics websites.  Electric was a big challenge too but again websites, I did it right, but had to take my time so please be patient with me on this.  I really do appreciate your help for my new layout and hope to learn more. ( So glade for a parts list)  I have to figure the top section for specs and such so I will look at  TMACKS pictures.  

Are you running DCS or just a Z-4000 remote ?

remove the 1st 10" straight on the incline and replace it with a 5" and a 5" block. Then remove the jumper wire on the center rail and connect the second handle transformer hot (red) there to control Level 2.

For the spurs, the 1 3/8" inch piece has a jumper wire for the center rail that you can remove and connect a switch to those terminals for ON/Off.

Ok got it,worked I am working with DCS no remote.  Thank You !

Carl I think I will go with the first version you had.  I ordered the extra track I needed,  there were about 24 pieces of the 1 3/8 inch track which you said I could use for some blocks. Where would be the best place to start the blocks?  Do you think I need to  cut some tracks (Making custom pieces) ? Also, I know the climb is 6.5" where does that start? can't seem to locate best position from drawings.  What do you think the best dimensions  for the second level should be ?  or should just layout the track and get an idea of size.  I am trying to envision the tunnel ports also and relate to area.  Thanks Again !   Charles

Hi Charles,

So, the 1.5.16 v.1 plan?    The grade begins at the end of the O36 curve after the manual switch to the right of the transformer. It's at 6.5" at the start of the 2nd level board.

Opening the plan in SCARM and hitting the 3D button and rotating the view by moving the mouse will help. The scroll wheel zooms in/out.

I still am not sure about your operation mode- Full DCS with TIU? or transformer control?

If you are up for cutting custom straights that will eliminate a lot of the small tracks. I 'll work that out and annotate the plan. I'll do the same with some color to indicate block points.

Are you using the MTH terminal boards for track feeds? You won't need a lot feeds.

 It's the 1.5. v. 2 plan. I  only see the 1.5.16 v. 2 and v.3.  I am running DCS with TIU and AIU, with some conventional trains through the transformer.  I do have the MTH terminal boards ( was using 4 for accessories,remote switches etc,)  I have all remote switches, need to get 2 more rt hand.  I did order 24 of the 1 3/8 inch as per parts list for the 1.516.v.2  so don't know if I want to give time to cutting up the tracks I guess I could see how many you have in  plan.   Thanks !

Hi Charles,

I think pulling the center rail pins will work to create the isolation points for the center rail. I don't want to introduce any more small tracks to change the layout fitment. This is pretty simple. Here is a video about making an accessory activation track. Use the same procedure, only for the center rail on two adjoining pieces. Save the pins to return the track to original if needed.

I have color coded the sections to follow the DCS recommendation of approximately 10'-12' long blocks.

I hope that helps.

Thanks for the info.  I thought of just having 2 blocks for the 2 train parking sides.  I am just a bit confused with all the other blocks and pin removal ( sorry about that ) is it to run on only DCS or both (conventional) I used to power my blocks with a switch (manually) I'm still trying to figure this all out.  Thanks !

Ok on the sidings-do the same. The rest is for good DCS signal. You can still run conventional. Power the upper and lower from two channels of the TIU.

When you expand from a single loop, you have to wire in blocks to maintain good signal strength for DCS.

TIU out to terminal board>terminal board to track feed locations.

Visit the DCS forum for lots of details.

Great, I didn't know that about the DCS signal strength I had downloaded the DCS companion some time ago but haven't gone through it all.   Do I pull the wire on the 1 3/8 sections and then wire with the feed wires if I understand that correctly.   

Yes, but not directly to the small piece. That creates the block. I don't know which location in the block is recommend, center or near and end. perhaps the companion would answer that.

Gentlemen,

   Great ideas on the additional 2nd level, real nice engineering.  With proper block wiring and adhering to the 12 track join disciple this 2 level DCS Fastrack layout will run like silk.  If he wants to add Legacy some time, it will no even be an engineering problem.

Real nice engineering ideas gentlemen,

PCRR/Dave

Thanks Dave, Yes Carl helped me so much on this.  I still need to do a lot of things yet.  I haven't gone through all the DCS stuff and still learning.  What is the 12 track join disciple about ? I am still looking at the block wiring set up I will get there.  Thanks 

it's a guideline to determine the length of blocks. Not meant to be exact. One can count tracks joints or measure the lengths of track.

The result is to have a block of a length that maintains the signal strength.

I use the length of 10'-12' for both DCS with center rail isolation or the same length for TMCC/Legacy with no center rail isolation. It also works for determining the locations of the track power feed pairs for conventional operation.

Installing multiple track power supply pairs helps overcome voltage loss due poor connections, dirty track and for DCS, maintains the signal.

The result is smooth running trains throughout the layout at crawl speeds and higher.

Hi Carl,need your help again.  I got my track in and started to lay it out.  Looked on Scarm to see actual placement and a few points about it.  Seems like the way they place track and numbers on track are a bit confusing to me.  Lets say it says 10" and then 00 is that 00 the 1 3/8 pieces ? because as I looked at the DCS wiring and about pulling the wire on some of these it seems like I don't have enough 1 3/8 to go around. Also I have the 1 3/4 pieces but don't seem to know where they fit.  List puts the      1 3/8 at 24 pieces and 1 /3/4 at 10 pieces I have all but can't seem to find placement of which ones They don't list the number size track on the small pieces just "00" between some tracks.   Is Scarm list very accurate on pieces I noticed a few small piece curves in some spots not given a number either.  Just wondering if its piece and fit with Scarm as a guide.   Thanks Again

NSY,

Maybe all you need to do to identify the part number for the smaller pieces is to "zoom in" more when the file is loaded in SCARM.  That will have the effect of enlarging each piece, giving more room to see the full piece number.

Chuck

NSY,

You are seeing the elevation heights at the track joints. If you right click on a track and select "length of selected section" it will show the length.

Click on the red "H" on the menu bar to turn heights off. You can turn them on again when you are ready to make the supports.

 on the menu bar. After you look at the plan a little, you can tell the difference between the 1 3/8" and 1 3/4". In the upper level, the left most pieces on the green support are 1 3/4". The crossing has all 1 3/8". You can see the difference if you scroll (zoom) in a little.

They are too small to show the size.

PRR1950 posted:

NSY,

Maybe all you need to do to identify the part number for the smaller pieces is to "zoom in" more when the file is loaded in SCARM.  That will have the effect of enlarging each piece, giving more room to see the full piece number.

Chuck

Doesn't work. What he needs to do is click on a track and look down in the lower left corner where it tells him what the selected track is.

Ok   Thanks for the info. Still trying to get heights off. clicking on to "remove track heights" but doesn't seem to work.  Did this from top menu "Edit section"  Thanks

Ok found it (track heights) looking at wrong part   Thanks 

Need help again new problem. I ordered some MTH Trestle track supports which will out well since they are 6 1/2 " tall However, trying to figure out a track support for top level that goes over bottom track on  top turnout loop.  There is very little or no room for any kind of base to fit.  Took a few pictures of layout progress and picture of my problem area.              Any ideas ?  Thanks

You should be able to fit an arch support, like the one that you made near the upper deck. Sit one leg in the Y of the switch. The arch can also sit outside both bottom tracks.The pylon is another style. I see that you have made one of those also.

The last resort is to trace the track for that area and cut some plywood for a deck and support it where you can on either end for those two areas. The Lionel trestles + the wood would be about 6".

If you can't make it fit, I'll try moving the elevated loop around a bit.

That came together nicely, have you tested a train yet?

I have been experimenting with different made supports just can't seem to fit it well enough.  I am using some Lionel and ordered MTH supports but maybe the plywood idea might be better in that area.  Haven't tested train yet want to get tracks settled first Wiring will be my next challenge.  Thanks for the input !