New Railroader - Headache - Need a sanity and reality check before I make a costly mistake. Amtrak + Warbonnet sets

Welcome to the Forum.......this is great place to learn and grow in the hobby.

Lots to think about in your post........here are a few of my thoughts.......PS-1 is great, but it is 25+ year old technology. It is also controlled through the transformer and your options to control it remotely are limited.

Have you looked into Lionel's LionChief sets? They are controlled via Bluetooth using your phone or with a Universal Remote. In the 2022 catalog there is an Amtrak passenger set headed by a Genesis engine and in the 2023 catalog is a Santa Fe Superchief passenger set headed by an F unit in classic Santa Fe warbonnet colors..... they might be acceptable options.

Peter

My suggestion is to buy brand new engines whatever you buy. Buying used could be a recipe for a headache, particularly for a beginner. Used rolling stock, track, and accessories is fine. I have a 4 year old son too. He enjoys using the lionchief remotes, so i think Peter made a good suggestion. If you power the layout with a variable transformer (as opposed to a wall wort or a power brick) you can set it below 18v to limit the top speed. That way you don't have to worry about the engine flying off the tracks when the little engineer pins the throttle! The Z1000 is a nice little tranformer and should work nicely to power a single loop. Obviously if you buy a lionchief set it'll come with a wall wort.

PS1 engines are typically robust but lack remote control. They can also be picky with tranformers and be quirky. I personally own a few but won't be buying more.

Good luck and have fun with whatever you get! Keep us updated.

Congrats on encouraging your son with trains.

Here are some questions that might help you to narrow your search and allow others to make suggestions...  How important are realism and scale fidelity to you and your son?  What control system do you have or plan to get (getting components, especially for DCS, can be difficult right now)?

@Putnam Division makes some great points regarding current LionChief and older PS-1.  I'd like to add that PS-1 opens up a whole can of worms if you're not familiar with it - I suggest avoiding any MTH items that say "ProtoSounds" (without a version number) on the label.  Some ProtoSounds 2.0 engines also have issues (another long story); 3.0 locomotives are generally good but the control components can be difficult / expensive to obtain.

Your profile doesn't say where you live - are you near a well-stocked train store or local train club?  Both can be good sources of information.  Also, there are many reputable mail order dealers here on the forum - most have searchable inventories.

@CJWolff posted:

Dear OGR forums;

Christopher here from New Orleans.

Ditto on all the advice above.  How much space is there available for a layout?  Do you have or plan on building benchwork/tables for the layout?

There is a Train Show on November 4th... Ponchatoula Model & Toy Train Show  I plan on attending and there are always some nice items (used & new) that can be purchased at reasonable prices.

Good morning folks.  It was a joy to wake up with responses.  You guys are great.

im typing on my phone but I wanted to address a few questions so I apologize for the brevity.

1. scale realism.  Critical,  he knows more about the parts than I do and I design electronic systems.  He knows if the yellow stripe on the warbonnet isn’t quite right and we had a huge debate over wheels and axles yesterday morning.  I think all the parts have to be there represented in some way.  

2. technology. We have two Bluetooth sets right now and to be honest I really don’t want him to have it.  As I said I design electronic systems.  When I was a kid I restored old tube radios.  He should learn the basics of electronics just like I did.  Figure out which wire goes where:  maybe a little soldering.  Good point about buying new vs used.  If I could make him hand crank a generator to power the set I would.  These old school sparky transformers are good for him.  We’re going to learn about continuity and all the other basics of wires etc together,  

im worried he’s not getting enough “systems thinking” experience and everything is just conveniently controlled by a phone app.  Maybe im a jerk for a dad

if he wants it he can build it.  I’ve made a living off of designing and project managing systems (satellites now).  
to me it’s more than being an electrical engineer. Think about how the big picture comes together.  From micro to macro.

He goes to a great school so it’s not that.  But they only go so deep for the 4 year olds.  he’s well past Thomas the train.  

anyway I don’t want to bring everyone down about technology and the death of radio shack and the electronics hobby.  But as soon as I can get a soldering iron in his hand the better.

at the same time I don’t want to frustrate him by giving him a failed 1.0 design.  I hope all of that makes sense.  

I think he can grow with this hobby for a long time instead of a disposable thing or an app.  Yes I will get him into coding too at the right time:  and perhaps we’ll build RC planes too.  (No ready to fly kits )

thank you so much for tolerating my phone fat fingering so early in the AM.  

Yes and last question,  the closest train shop is pontchatoula.  Hobbies don’t seem to exist in New Orleans or maybe the hobby industry died while I wasn’t watching.  I think more the latter.  I woukd probably have to go to Houston to find a decent store.  It seems like Pennsylvania has a radically different hobby market for example,  

thanks again, I’m eager to read more.

Best,

Christopher

Another vote for LionChief sets from Lionel.  They are command control and can operate using the remote that comes with the set or the Universal Remote (about $50).  If you want better scale realism you are going to need to spend thousands of dollars, which may be an option.  Lionel locos operate using a variety of systems.  They allow complex operation of multiple trains at once.

I also would avoid used stuff, and in particular MTH locos as that company's future is somewhat uncertain and on the fade right now. Protosound 1 should be avoided for a variety of reasons. If you find the MTH stuff most attractive, stick with PS2 and PS3 systems, although the control equipment for command operation is currently in unpredictable supply, and the future is uncertain.  The main advantage of the MTH locos and equipment is variety of product and scale realism at reasonable cost, so it's a tradeoff. 

I wouldn't write off Bluetooth or other Lionel command systems.  They are the most cost effective, and frankly, Lionel is the only manufacturer very likely to exist into your boy's teenage years.  This hobby isn't readily adapted to do-it-yourself electronics.  Most of the control electronics are not easily available or worked on unless you are an electrical engineer, so that may not intimidate you.  Leave the soldering and hands on stuff for the layout wiring, accessories, etc. rather than the locos is my advice.

Assembling track can be tricky from a safety standpoint.   Menards tubular and older Lionel tubular can cause significant lacerations, so I'd go with Fastrack (comes in Lionel sets), Atlas or Gargraves sectional track (Ross also makes sectional track).  These are more realistic and easier to avoid injury with than tubular track.

Perhaps there is a three rail or other model railroad club in the Nawlins area?  Those folks could be a big help as well as an opportunity for seeing experienced model railroaders in action.  Do a google search for model railroad clubs in your area.

Sounds like you are going to have lots of fun.

Crescent City Model Railroad Club in Metairie.

http://www.ccmrc.com/

Not three rail O gauge I gather but could be interesting and helpful.

You've got some hobby shops that carry O gauge.  Mike's in Kenner.  A lot closer than the shop you mention.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/mikes-train-shop-kenner

Hub Hobby in Metairie is mainly HO. Do a Google search using "O Gauge model trains, New Orleans" and you'll get the contact information and location, and reviews. These people could be of great assistance I'd guess.

Your son looks like a great future model railroader!!

For kids it's hard to beat the Lionel LionChief products.  The remotes are easy for younger people to handle (than, say a TMCC/ Cab1 or Legacy remote.)  I use them all- TMCC Cab1, Lion Chief and Universal Remotes.  The kids I see have trouble with the Cab1, 2, 2L remotes though.  But:

- Older Lion Chief locos come with a remote that only works with a particular locomotive. AND (a problem w/kids) the older loco remotes with electro couplers combined the whistle button with a coupler button so it is too easy to uncouple the train while not meaning to.

- The Universal Remote is needed for many of the newer Lion Chief and LC Plus 2.0 engines. 

Other recommendations-

Buy a transformer w/ control so (as PRRick posted) you can reduce overall top speed, again good for kids.  You will need to run at about 12-15 volts to get full sound and other functions, though.

Until you have a large layout, you don't need a big transformer.  MTH no longer sells or supports transformers, though you will find them online at auction sites or online train sellers.  So- Lionel.

Locos pulling cars (in my experience) draw around 2 amps each- so around 36 watts needed per.  This does NOT include accessories.  A Lionel CW-80 (about $150) produces 80 watts and should run two trains at a time.

If you are pretty sure that you and your son will move on to greater things, the Lionel GW-180 (about $300) with an external power brick produces enough for a larger layout, and may work for several years of expansion before buying additional or a larger transformer.

Track:  it's hard to beat Lionel FasTrack for a layout that gets set up and taken down.  The weaknesses are the connections between pieces can be an issue (IF that happens take a large pair of channel locks or electrician's lineman's pliers and gently squeeze at the joints.) The other track systems are all great, too, and for a permanent layout are better appearing IF you ballast them.

Take care to know the minimum radius needed for trains you might buy.  A "70 foot" (21.5 in. long) full 1/48 O scale Amtrak Passenger Car (Atlas "O Master") needs 054 turns, so allowing 3" per side clearance, and means a 5ft. wide table.  A "60 foot" (15") Atlas "Trainman" car runs on O36 turns and means a 4 ft. wide table.  These minimum turn dimensions are pretty true for all brands.

Find a reputable train store you can visit, than ask if they have any starter sets either new or used. No need to go all in until your son wets his feet. Pick up OGR magazines and you will find many top train stores if none are nearby, give them a call many will be happy to talk you through.

So far, every previous response has talked about some sort of proprietary control (MTH = DCS, Lionel = TMCC, Legacy, Lionchief (be aware that there are 3 varieties for this one) or Bluetooth, Atlas & 3rd Rail = TMCC equivalent), all of which require a power source of some kind and either a related command system or a phone/tablet.  Let's talk about 2 other possibilities, Conventional power and Battery Powered Remote Control (BPRC).

Conventional power simply means using an old-fashioned (or newer variety) train transformer with some kind of throttle control.  Older tech examples would be the Lionel ZWs, KWs, or 1033s and the MTH Z-750 or Z-1000.  With these, it's just two wires to the rails, plug it in the wall, and push the lever (or turn the dial) and your train operates.  These will work with most manufacturers' engines (but verify before you buy) with the major drawback being that a lot of the newer engine's features may not be accessible without the related command system.

BPRC is the latest gizmo in our model world and will require some extra purchases and some "engineering" to get it into most engines, so if you choose this route, don't buy expensive engines unless you are going to try and resell the electronics that are inside.  Briefly, you must buy a sufficiently sized battery (Li-on I believe are the preferred types), a control card (these are based on HO size NMRA standards, but with ability to handle O size engine motors), some parts to permit recharging the battery, and a tablet or phone to run the software that operates each engine.  An Android version of this software was just released, so some bugs are still being worked out.

As mentioned earlier, equipment to operate the proprietary control systems is hard to locate now without paying a premium price (while assuming the risk that if the system becomes inoperable, you may not be able to get it fixed), so you should just be aware of other potential avenues and options.  Further, not all the equipment made by manufacturers follows prototype practices or is "scale" in dimensions.  This is particularly true of MTH Railking products, many Lionel products, and almost all Menards products.  Creation and sale of 'fantasy" paint schemes for equipment is also growing quite common.

However, in the end, this is just a fun hobby.  The fact that some engine is not "perfect" in size or details or paint scheme should not deter you from purchase as long as it is "close enough" to what you are seeking and can be made to operate on your layout.  That last phrase is critical because you don't want to buy a nice engine that needs O72 size curves when the best you can do is O54 curves on your layout.  Oh, and by the way, all curve dimensions in O gauge are diameter dimensions while curve dimensions in O scale are radii.  Thus O72 equals an approximate 72" diameter (from center rail to center rail for most manufacturers) which is considered wide for us, a 36" radius (roughly equivalent to O72) is considered very narrow for O scale runners.

Welcome to the hobby.

Chuck

Here’s a pitcher of cold water thrown in your face. Your son, as capable and intelligent as he is, is still only 4. There are some children for whom this will turn into a lifelong hobby, and, for others, a brief diversion until the next enticing gadget comes along. I would throttle down on the rapidity with which you engage your wallet, and take small steps. That being said, you may want to become the driver, with a long standing toy train addiction. I understand wanting to share this experience with your son, but be prepared to end up with trains in a box in the attic, or garage, used only, and briefly, around the Christmas Tree. Slow and steady. Don’t forget the OGR For Sale subforum, and, not mentioned above, as far as I read, garage sales, and Craig’s list are other less expensive purchase venues.

My version of your requested sanity/reality check!

@CJWolff posted:

I have a 4 year old son that is obsessed with trains.  Every day after school we watch train videos.  He picks out trains while we drive to school.  I find parked locomotives and talk the conductors into letting us "get close" and take pics.

Thanks in advance for listening to my headache, I know the folks here are experts and I am not, so I would be very thankful for getting your input.

He's a very good boy and speaks three languages and can count to 100 in them.  He's earned this and I will get it for him.

Christopher

Christopher,

First, thank you to all of my cohorts here, for so many good suggestions.  But, there are also many, many under-simplifications listed in the comments in the the thread above as generated in response to your original post.  My apologies because we as 'experts' are making this a little too complex for a newbie to process.  This is natural of course, and fortunately all done with the best of intentions.

So, first ask yourself three questions:

1. Are you a newbie or a veteran at technical things? -- This hobby is an excellent way to transition from the first of these to the second, at your own pace and only if you want to.  Remember that it was created and clearly marketed over the years largely as a means to have fun and teach kids technical skills (which today we call S.T.E.M) at the same time.  It does this very, very well, broadly and across many technical disciplines.
2. Are you easily overwhelmed? -- Please do not be intimidated by the intense detail provided in many of the posts above.  In spite of comments otherwise you do not need to be an electrical engineer to be successful and happy with it.  Based on your descriptions your son is a prime candidate to follow a technical path.  You're right on target with helping him to grow his skills, talents and experiences in, and through, the hobby.
3. Do you (one or both of you) like tinkering?  Or, are you more comfortable with operating? -- Most of the learning in this hobby comes from tinkering.  It's a habit that leads directly to cultivating the skills, talents and experiences necessary to be an innovator in a future career, and get paid well for it.  (Ask me how I know this.)  These are highly desirable characteristics for a child showing technical trends at an early age.  First steps with tinkering show up with the planning of a layout, followed by building and troubleshooting mechanical stuff, then electrical things, then electronics.  At the end, and in the present day, they lead to software, networking and communications, and beyond.  You can take this chain of learning as far as you want and be nicely ready for a challenging and successful technical career.

Please stick with us here on the OGR Forum.  This is the hotspot for all of the above.

Most importantly take one step at a time.  Don't be intimidated.

To close out my comments I'd like to shove in my own example one of the tiny little details that are so prevalent in the thread above this post.  Let's talk practical with this example: Your comment about PS1 being unreliable here is flatly quite wrong.  Engines with PS1 are very reliable.  Instead, their biggest problem is that they're so very hard to operate successfully at times, because the control methodology is very cumbersome, oddly detailed, and archaic.

Stick with simple to start.

Begin with LionChief, or as an alternative simple conventional operation, both as suggested above, and then grow through the rest as it comes to you, one step at a time as slow or fast as you prefer.

Welcome and Good luck.

Mike

"He should learn the basics of electronics just like I did.  Figure out which wire goes where:  maybe a little soldering.  Good point about buying new vs used.  If I could make him hand crank a generator to power the set I would.  These old school sparky transformers are good for him.  We’re going to learn about continuity and all the other basics of wires etc together, ..."

With your work and this statement, it sounds like you might want to go old school with just a basic AC transformer, learning how to hook up old school devices like semaphores, crossing gates, decoupler sections, get your son understanding the basics and working up from there.  I started in radio at age 7 when I wanted to build a Jacobs Ladder using a Ford spark coil using a Lionel 1033 transformer to power it, and shocked the heck out of myself.  A Cub Scout crystal radio kit sealed the deal, getting into ham radio and then at age 18, starting with 6 years with the Navy and many electronic schools, then 32 more in the aviation industry, I have seen things change from tubes, to solid state, to LSI, to uProc run gear, and after it went  to LSI it got boring.  At 70, I still run ZW's. Should be noted that for decades in my avionics shop at work, I had a picture of the  N&W Powhatan Arrow, with a caption underneath, "Will never fall from 30,000 feet".

So many amazing responses and information.  I have to prepare for a call but I’ll be back later with more thoughts.  Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.

My thoughts, having been on a layout budget.

There's a cost premium for command and FastTrack.

If you're on a budget, money spent on command and FastTrack can't be spent on other things, like layout framework and electrical components.

CJ,

   I very strongly agree with CALNNC and others wh- gave similar responses. As someone who only got into O Gauge 3 years ago, here is my strong advice:

1.  Do not jump into any high-tech stuff right out of the gate.    Learn all of the basics first.  Once you have mastered those,  and learn more about high-tech stuff from studying and reading these Boards, then you can make a well informed and confident decision as to what high-tech items and systems you want.  Jumping head- first into the latest and greatest high-tech systems and units is very costly, and you may well be boxing yourself in for where you want to go in the future.

2.  In this vein, you mentioned that you want your son to learn all of the basics of the electronics, so that he can build on that.  He is not going to learn that by running a train on his phone or pushing buttons on a hand held remote control.   

3.   Starting out with using simple Conventional engines and a standard Z-1000 transformer is the way to go.   These things are cheap, the electronic wires and switches are easy to hook up and understand, and their workings will be easily to explain to your son.   The use of a dial lever on the transformer for speed, a single button for the horn, and a single button for a horn, will give him a lot of joy and satisfaction to begin with.   And, by creating separate "power blocks" in your track layout, by running separate power lines to them with on/off toggle switches, he will be able to control which sections have power, and which do not, and where he can park trains and where he cannot.

4.   Large conventional diesel locomotives are readily available, in very good working order, for around $200 to $400 or so.  This includes the Lionel Warbonnet Sante Fe "El Capitan" #148 engine and car set that was made several years ago.  This locomotive has the Lionel "Train Sounds" module, which will (while the engine is in neutral) broadcast random conversations between the crew members prior to clearance for the train to embark.     I personally bought this Engine , NIB, 24 months ago, and it runs great. 

5.  When you buy a decade old or more loco NIB, there are some risks that the old oil and grease will have dried out and will need to be cleaned out and re-lubed.  Fortunately, the one I bought did not have this problem.   If you buy one like this, there are numerous pictures and instructions to be found on this Board as to how to clean them up.     

6.  To avoid this issue, there is nothing wrong with buying a conventional engine that is in used VG operating and cosmetic condition from a trusted source.   I have bought several from folks on this Board, every engine has run fine, so I consider everybody on this Board a trusted source.  I have also bought from Trainz.com and Trainworld.com (both sponsors of this Board), with no problems.

7.   Additionally, I have bought used conventional locos on E-Bay, and after confirming the operating condition of the piece, with a right of return, and I have never had a problem with any of them.  (The only issue I ever ran into was when I bought a large Steam Engine, and found that one of the driver rods was bent, but it was easily replaced.)

I strongly suggest you start here, at the "most basic level", to educate yourself and your son in this nice hobby.   Three or four years from now, there will be plenty of time to move up, improve, and go to the more expensive command systems and locomotives.   In the meantime, your son can be accumulating cars and track accessories for your layout, which can be used with a command system in the future.

Bottom line, if your son was suddenly interest in horseback riding and caring for horses, you wouldn't go out and buy him a racehorse.  You would start with a 12 year old, easy going, trail horse.

I hope this helps.

Mannyrock

P.S.- Sorry for my typo in paragraph 3.  The Z-1000 has a single button for the horn, and single button for the bell.

Mannyrock

As your son gets older, the absence of Radio Shack might not be a limitation to learning about electronics, robotics, computers, etc.  Search on Amazon for electronics education kits and you'll find literally dozens of sets designed for kids from kindergarten and up.

https://www.amazon.com/Thames-...ZT1zcF9tdGY&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/ELSKY-E...aps%2C116&sr=8-6

Above suggestions about conventional train control are good ones, and I would discuss these issues with a local hobby shop like Mike's.  That way you can get hands on examples of what is available to you locally.

An important note regarding transformers - the "old school" transformers from Lionel (and other manufacturers) are incompatible with locomotives that contain electronic control systems.  Although you can run new locos with old transformers, the circuit breakers and other aspects of the power can fry the expensive electronic components in an instant.  If you want to chase down that rabbit hole (which might be right up your alley), search the forum for threads about TVS diodes and circuit breakers.  The simplest way to avoid this problem is to stick with MTH Z-1000 or Z-4000 or Lionel ZW-L (and maybe CW80) transformers or go with LionChief.

For simplicity, the opportunity to learn about electricity and mechanics, and the ability to tinker, I'd suggest Lionel equipment from the postwar (1945-69) or MPC (1970-1990) eras which can be obtained at very reasonable prices; however, those items won't come close to having realistic details.

This isn't helpful, but I'm sure when he sees his first real big steam locomotive, he'll love them.

My advice:

Take a breath. Do more research, including talking to some train folks in person. Slow down. Start small. Ease your (and your son's) way into this. Baby steps.

I know what you've posted and I get it. Many of us were there. A new hobby is thrilling and we all love to dive in.

Again...slow down a notch. Or two. You obviously know your child the best, but he's 4.

One suggestion. Your 4 year old seems a lttle fixated on passenger trains because he's ridden one and that's what he knows.

Usually for young children freight trains are more interesting than passenger trains because the cars are more varied, and kids can put toys and whatever into hoppers and gondolas (and boxcars) and haul them around. It's odd that he dislikes hoppers.  You might take him to a railyard somewhere and show him all the different freight cars there are, and all the hoppers that are one of most-used types of freight cars.

Let’s make this real simple. Way too much in the way of suggestions away from your original thoughts.

The MTH Superliner sets are nice.  If he likes those real Superliners, you can find the models.

He’ll likely be satisfied with any Amtrak diesel to pull them. Any brand. Except for the now-uncommon remote-only LionChief (not LionChief Plus) models, they all run conventionally. An MTH Z-1000 is a good starting transformer.

Lots of F-unit Santa Fe warbonnet locos to choose from, with endless Santa Fe passenger cars available. I agree with Mellow Hudson Mike. Don’t overwhelm yourself in making the choice.

GarGraves track isn’t for newcomers. And you don’t need it exclusively to run those trains. What you need is any track system with wider curves. If you’re building a board layout, any brand will do, old and new, as long as the curves are O-42 (42-inch diameter or greater). If it’s just tracks on the floor, probably Lionel’s FasTrack (but read up on precautions here on the forum to ensure the track system continues to work well after being disassembled a few times).

I do agree with doing basic research. If you have never heard of something, like GarGraves, then do a Google search.

In 3-rail O gauge, there will ALWAYS be compromises to realism.  Particularly with "traditional sized" O gauge trains, which are more house-friendly than the scale variety, you should think of them as a caricature of the real thing, rather than a realistic portrait.  If you want big trains and you want them to fit in a spare room, eventually your son will have to make peace with the compromises needed.  And even the most realistic layouts like Norm Charbonneau's still have a third rail.  It's a necessary compromise that pays handsome dividends of durability, redundancy, and reliability.

Also, there is another control option not mentioned above:  You can have radio control direct to the locomotive, and the on-board receiver modulating track power that's been converted to regulated DC.  This in lieu of a battery on board.  Some brands that you could choose are CVP Products' AirWire, and Ring Engineering's RailPro.  You won't see this approach mentioned often on the Forum.  But with Lionel and MTH control systems out of stock and commanding very high prices in the secondary market, they merit consideration, especially for someone just starting out. My $.02.

Personally I hope your son stays with the hobby and you have many fun years learning and playing together!!

Some thoughts:

1. Four is really young for messing about with electricity. If you want him to learn about things like simple circuits, &c, there are educational toys out there that probably do that more effectively and safely than toy trains, where you might encounter things like soldering and wire stripping that a four year old is not yet physically capable of doing safely, as they don't have the eye-hand coordination. Simple educational toys, on the other hand, will have parts designed to snap together easily, and safely. That would be within a four year old's abilities physical abilities, whilst still being intellectually challenging enough (understanding electricity, how to design and build circuits, &c). Building on these skills, he can start to do more of this later on.

2. In some ways, "playing on the smartphone" is probably the more useful skill for someone STEM focused for the future. Software development, or at least being able to use software with native fluency, is a important skill in the 21st century. And one that your kid is more likely to use in day to day existence. I think that there are great ways to nurture these skills through this, and other "maker" hobbies, if that is something you want to pursue. Being able to tie the digital and physical world together is a game changer for modeling. From using 3D printing, to simply using the computer & printer to make signs for buildings, being able to use both physical and digital tools to create models is incredibly useful. So I'd suggest that, when your child has screen time, maybe you find things he can use that screen time for to be productive and creative related to this or any other hobbies he might have. If you have access to a public "maker space" (some libraries have 3d printers, and there are a lot of other organizations that provide them too), I'd suggest that you and your son make use of them. Even if he doesn't embrace model railroading as a long term hobby, he will learn useful skills there, and be exposed to more kinds of creativity he can freely explore.

3. It's interesting that your son seems to dislike both steam locomotives and hoppers: I wonder if it's something to with the cleanliness of both? When you say hoppers, do you mean coal hoppers? Maybe he's just not a fan of coal? If his dislike is rooted in that aspect, there are certainly a good selection of freight cars past and present that might suit his tastes. Refrigerator cars, for example. An operating milk car might be a good choice: lots of action, and can be used on the head end of passenger trains too. I also have to put in a plug for the mail train! Not nearly enough people have a Fast Mail on their layouts, but it allows for a good mix of freight and passenger style rolling stock.

5. If you have the space, I'd suggest building a simple layout on a table. Doesn't have to be super elaborate, but it's a different experience to just running things on a loop on the floor, which gets old quick! It also allows for easier cleaning, reduces the likelihood of stuff getting stepped on, and you can have scenery! Part of the fun I have in my own model railroading approach is the ability to build a world in miniature. And if your kid likes passenger trains, then I suspect he will love having a station and platform for them to stop at. And with two sets, you could probably get a decent passing track going, so one train can pass the other and stop at the station. All you need is knowing how to wire a block, and a pair of switches. Just, word of advice, if\when you get into doing switches, make sure you don't have any beyond arms reach! Trust me, trying to get to a cantankerous switch beyond arms reach is no fun at all, at any age. Also, if you do build a little layout, let me also say you should also carefully consider the height, and maybe provide for seating, with your son in mind. He'll grow, of course, but sight-lines are important nonetheless! I work in the museum field, and there is a definite issue with exhibit designers thinking everything through in terms of size from an adult perspective rather than a kids perspective. And trying to navigate a space where you've got to be lifted up to see anything is no more fun for the kiddos than it is for the parents!

Good evening OGR folks;

It's been an interesting day.  I want to thank you all who commented both on OGR and personally.  I feel so much better about moving forward.  With that in mind:

First of all I cancelled about $1000 worth of gear.  We're starting with a blank slate.

Second I learned not to post about my lack of train experience on FB model train forums.  The response was swift and vicious.  I know not to take the trolls at heart but some of the comments were really inappropriate.

I understand the whole situation with the hobby world seems kinda precarious.  I need to keep that in mind going forward.  Maybe I'll stick with Lionel engines and either Lionel or MTH cars.

The ZW-L is the dream model of transformers hahah.

Third please be aware I think there is a scammer on this board.  He's a Nigerian named Micheal Smith michealsmith992@aol.com.  His email address came up in a few lists of people you should avoid and his english usage reveals he's not a native US speaker.  I have no problem with international buying but I think I'll stick to folks that are active on the board and known.  He's extremely pushy and discounts too quickly.  Too many red flags.

Fourth I need to solve the track problem.  I want 3 rail track that will handle scale size trains.  We have room to start on the floor until we set up a board layout for now and figure this hobby out.  All clear from the wife's perspective.  I'll run trains all over the house lol.

I have two lionchief bluetooth sets but I don't think the track curve diameter is sufficient to handle scale trains.  I think the fasttrack is difficult to assure a good connection and you really have to push and rock it into place.  Maybe I'm wrong?  We'll find it.

Fifth I took a deep breath.  Thank you guys for recommending it.  I had some other stuff going on that blurred my patience and judgement.

As I said I'm going back to the drawing board.  I will keep you posted on what the next steps are and I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions.

I have to say this is a fantastic community with a value far above the price of admission.  Thank you all for your guidance.

Sincerely,

Christopher

BRAVO!!! 'he who hurries cannot walk with dignity'

The basic LionChief set engines are OK but have small, under powered motors.  The starter sets are a great value, but as you pointed out, have O36 curves- too tight for scale equipment.  And the "wallwort" power packs in a set do not generally have power for more than, say a 5-car train on a smaller circle of track layout.

In my experience, I have bought MANY train engines and cars online, on "the auction site", and both NEW and USED.  I have been VERY happy buying used, digitally-controlled models originating from around 2000 on. Mainly Lionel "Legacy", because that is my preference. These have been well-priced, and many are new, never run.

So consider the used market on the online site and through OGR Forum sellers.  I applaud our fellow O scale hobbyists and the OGR Forum-sponsoring sellers.  IMO almost 100% are perfectly honest and will not sell junk. If anything most of my online purchases have been perfect- better than described by the seller.

Based on my previous Lion Chief recommendation, you could start by buying LionChief PLUS and Plus 2.0 engines, running with the Universal Remote. Using a transformer for power.  BUT, to go with an old 1950s- 1960s (but very reliable)  $ 150 ZW 270 watt transformer, you have to add circuit breakers (3-5 amp) after the transformer to protect the locomotive electronics. The original breaker IN the ZW takes several seconds to trip, and can mean wrecked electronics from surges and derailments.

I have only been disappointed once when I bought a "new, in the box" 1995-vintage conventional control locomotive from an actual estate train auction.  This to be differentiated from the main online auction site, rhymes with "may".  

First, the estate train auction price when the buyer's premium, packaging,  and shipping costs were added, was increased substantially from what I bid.

But more, the engine turned out to have what we hobbyists call "Zinc Pest".  This is caused when manufacturers mix in other scrap metals into the zinc raw material.  The wheels on my purchase (diecast zinc) had cracked and broken, in the box, and the entire frame with wheels had to be replaced.  I was lucky to find one.  Thankfully the zinc pest problems seem to be less of a factor more recently, post 1990s.

More:  I started out in this (O Gauge/ Scale) hobby buying postwar through MPC-era Lionel, and conventionally-controlled by ZW transformers.  I quickly realized the value of remote, handheld control.  IF you build a layout on a table, this will be a big feature- walking around WITH the train, running at slow, prototypical speeds,  is far more fun than sitting behind a transformer.

And at a table height that is close to eye level- so 40" and UP for an adult, BUT lower (with the ability to make it higher) for your son.  Maybe start at 30".  Some layout table systems allow adjustable heights, although probably not as low as 30".   Even 5/8" thick OSB on sawhorses are a decent starting place.   Add to the layout using removable joiner track pieces.   

AND scenery!  The previous poster was correct- introduce scenery, kit buildings, as a major added part of the hobby.  I started my grandson at age 1-1/2, with a Lionel Set, around the Christmas tree on the floor.  His parents have never taken it beyond that, but the grandson loves "running Grandpa's trains" at his now- 8 years old.

To beat the attention span issues, I added "hide the muscle man".  He, then I hide a small 3" high plastic figure "anywhere on the layout, but not IN a building or car- he has to be visible without moving anything."  The other person has to go into another room and not "peek".  It adds at leas an HOUR of fun to the train sessions.

I have been following this closely.  It is great to see you have a son so interested in the hobby.  Nurturing and growing that interest is the key to keeping him in the hobby.  For me, my father, uncles, and grandfather were instrumental in keeping my interest alive and to this day I still have opportunities to enjoy the hobby with my father and my uncle who are both in their 80's now.

Lots of ideas here and lots to digest.  I got into the O scale late in my hobby in my 30's having been in HO and N since age 7.  The size and heft of more scale like O trains is what piqued my interest.  The traditional sized O scale never appealed to me.  Having said that, I'm not sure you can make any real mistakes in this hobby.  What kept me in the hobby was family.  My family always took opportunities to see and ride real trains which just kept my interest in models of it more interesting and relevant.  My wife thinks it's silly that I get excited even in my 50's at the sight of a real train. 

After reading all the responses, I can summarize my thoughts to just this one.  Keep the flame alive with your son and make it an activity you can share and grow with together over time.  How you pursue the hobby specifically is less important than the journey you both take to explore this incredible hobby in all its forms. 

I agree with Putnam Div at the top of the post.  Starter sets are great if you understand their limitations.  But if he loses interest your not out 1000 of dollars.  A pitfall is the production of some of these sets. Even if its in the catalog, it may not be avialable at dealers yet.  Based on your interest, if it were me, i'd do the following:

CHarles Ro has a Lionel "Lionel Chief" Santa Fe set: https://charlesro-com.3dcartst.../store_l2323110.html

Mr Muffin's Trains has LionChief Amtrak engines which could be hooked up to the Santa Fe set cars as well, and run on the same track as that full set, without having to buy another full set of track and transformer.https://mrmuffinstrains.com/pr...=2e8cb2cff&_ss=r

Good luck and have fun!

@CJWolff posted:

Good evening OGR folks;

It's been an interesting day.  I want to thank you all who commented both on OGR and personally.  I feel so much better about moving forward.  With that in mind:

First of all I cancelled about $1000 worth of gear.  We're starting with a blank slate.

Second I learned not to post about my lack of train experience on FB model train forums.  The response was swift and vicious.  I know not to take the trolls at heart but some of the comments were really inappropriate.

I understand the whole situation with the hobby world seems kinda precarious.  I need to keep that in mind going forward.  Maybe I'll stick with Lionel engines and either Lionel or MTH cars.

The ZW-L is the dream model of transformers hahah.

Third please be aware I think there is a scammer on this board.  He's a Nigerian named Micheal Smith michealsmith992@aol.com.  His email address came up in a few lists of people you should avoid and his english usage reveals he's not a native US speaker.  I have no problem with international buying but I think I'll stick to folks that are active on the board and known.  He's extremely pushy and discounts too quickly.  Too many red flags.

Fourth I need to solve the track problem.  I want 3 rail track that will handle scale size trains.  We have room to start on the floor until we set up a board layout for now and figure this hobby out.  All clear from the wife's perspective.  I'll run trains all over the house lol.

I have two lionchief bluetooth sets but I don't think the track curve diameter is sufficient to handle scale trains.  I think the fasttrack is difficult to assure a good connection and you really have to push and rock it into place.  Maybe I'm wrong?  We'll find it.

Fifth I took a deep breath.  Thank you guys for recommending it.  I had some other stuff going on that blurred my patience and judgement.

As I said I'm going back to the drawing board.  I will keep you posted on what the next steps are and I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions.

I have to say this is a fantastic community with a value far above the price of admission.  Thank you all for your guidance.

Sincerely,

Christopher

You're correct that the Fastrack ("FT") O-36 curves that come standard with Lionel Lionchief starter sets are not sufficient to be able to run scale equipment. However, for a different perspective, here are a couple of things you should be aware of before you eliminate FT from consideration as your track of choice.

First, Lionel makes FT all the way up to O-96 curves; and O-72 curves will support running 99% of most scale equipment out there. So, using FT to be able to run scale equipment is not an issue. 

Second, both Lionel and MTH now make a line of engines that are near scale, but will run down to as small as O-31 curves. My Lionel Lionchief Plus 2.0 "Big Boy" steam engine is near scale at 27" long with tender; will run on curves as small as O-31; and has no issues negotiating the curves and switches on my mostly O-36 layout. Aesthetically, some people may have an issue with how the overhang looks, but in this day and age you can run larger equipment on smaller diameter layouts without having to purchase larger track.

Third, IMHO, the negative issue of FT connectivity is overblown. If installed correctly and with the tips alluded to in posts above and as shown in the video below and addressing switches as elsewhere on the Forum), FT is a more than acceptable track choice and you can't beat the ease of installation as compared to some other track choices. In addition, you can use black binder clips or these newer plastic ones sold on the 'Bay for even more protection against voltage loss.

Layout Building Tips & Tricks: Wiring FasTrack - YouTube

@CJWolff posted:

...

Second I learned not to post about my lack of train experience on FB model train forums.  The response was swift and vicious.  I know not to take the trolls at heart but some of the comments were really inappropriate.

...

Third please be aware I think there is a scammer on this board.  He's a Nigerian named Micheal Smith michealsmith992@aol.com.  His email address came up in a few lists of people you should avoid and his english usage reveals he's not a native US speaker.  I have no problem with international buying but I think I'll stick to folks that are active on the board and known.  He's extremely pushy and discounts too quickly.  Too many red flags.....

Re getting trolled on FB, I think you'll find that the folks here are friendly and patient, and the forum is actively moderated - nasty folks get shut down.

Re the possible scammer - if it's someone on this forum, please report what you know to the moderators.  They go to great lengths to try to weed out the bad actors, but nobody is perfect.

@CJWolff posted:

Third please be aware I think there is a scammer on this board.  He's a Nigerian named Micheal Smith michealsmith992@aol.com.  His email address came up in a few lists of people you should avoid and his english usage reveals he's not a native US speaker.  I have no problem with international buying but I think I'll stick to folks that are active on the board and known.  He's extremely pushy and discounts too quickly.  Too many red flags.

Christopher....the email of the person you say is a scammer is not registered on this forum.  The only way someone that is not a member of the forum can contact you is if you shared your email somewhere in a post here (they can't get to your forum profile) or if you have supplied enough info that they can cross connect you here with some other less secure online site.  As I have said on this forum in the past, if you are contacted by anyone responding to a post you have made on the forum, ask them for their forum avatar name and their forum email address.  If using that info in a search on this forum does not confirm their membership, then report it to us and don't remain in contact with them.

For a 4 year old  I would suggest checking out Menards.com and search for trains.

https://www.menards.com/main/g...ermToCategory=trains

I suspect some more interesting stuff will be coming to Menards online and when stores stock the trains seasonally in October.

Christopher, if you want to be able to run the majority of scale trains and you want them to look comfortable, I would make your curves no sharper than 54" diameter (O54.)  Unfortunately, broad curves like that will take a LOT of room in your house, especially if you don't have a full basement, attic, or "bonus room" that can be dedicated to trains.  Eventually your wife will tire of having the track on the floor.  In a spare bedroom, you'll probably be limited to one or two stubby concentric ovals, which could get boring quickly depending on your goals.

Just because a train is approximately "scale" in size doesn't mean it's automatically realistic.  Brand new out of the box, a lot of scale-sized trains have shiny metal bright-work that's rather toy-like to my eyes.  Incorrect details, wrong shade of red or green, etc., this Forum is full of examples!  Meanwhile, a traditionally-sized train, or even a whole traditional layout can be made realistic by adding details, weathering, operating smoothly at slower speeds, etc.

No matter what, having fun with three-rail trains takes a healthy dose of imagination.  Please keep that in mind before you dig into your wallet!  My $.02.

Member linesteiner posted earlier about contacting a local shop. Great idea. Suggest you avoid Mike's Train Shop in Kenner. The several reviews posted in the link provided should give anyone caution about dealing with him. He is 'somewhat well known' in the New Orleans area and many guys avoid him.

I had a hobby shop over in Covington for some time back in 1987 - 1994 or so. We would deal with some of his customers from time to time who told us some horror stories!

@c.sam guess where I went today?