I started going to Southern California Cal-Stewart shows and a few Northern Shows in the 1970's but I understand they are ending or ended. Never went to York but wondering if the same is happening to them. We had a local Northern California TTOS that had a great group of people but it is no more. Don
FWIT, there are many good deals in the Quarterly regarding items which are NOT for sale on the Forum; and they are often very favorably priced. That one "perk" more than justifies the TCA membership dues.
While York is ED function rather than a "TCA" function, I can't help but wonder if there would now be a "York" [or a Big E] without the TCA?
TCA , for many years, has promoted our hobby and more importantly allows its members to develop friendships of like minded individuals, and it still does. TCA is much more than York!
Private meets, while also being valuable and fun, don't fulfill those purposes.
On the Forum, I proudly use my TCA # . While I am not a "veteran" York participant; I have made valuable friendships by being active in, and serving as a Director, of the Fort Pitt Division.
I regard my TCA membership, and my Chapter membership, as well worth their somewhat nominal annual dues.
To those non-members reading this thread; hop on board and enjoy the ride!
As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
Eddie, it's not just the 50 bucks to get in, it's hotel, food, rental car and flight. Don
Dave45681 posted:Dan Padova posted:....... Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.Perhaps I am simply feeling a revolutionist mindset against any sort of organized establishment. The good old boy mentality simply does not fly with me.
Have you compared the number of tables vs any other show/meet when you decided $23 is too much?
The York meet dwarfs anything with perhaps one or 2 exceptions (Big E in Amherst, one in CA that I forget the name of?).
When all tables are included in the evaluation, it's probably 5-7 times as large as Allentown and/or any Greenberg show that is put on anywhere. The Orange Hall alone is probably most comparable to a really big Greenberg show.
Even at only 2 days, $23 for such a huge amount of items to have a chance of finding for your particular "needs" is a pretty darn good deal, IMHO.
Not sure what your personal drive time has to do with the admission price? I don't consider how long it would take me to get to meets/shows I don't deem worth it, I just don't go. I also don't claim they are not good meets/shows though, I just don't attend as they are too far for me. I wouldn't suggest the Big E should be cheaper(or move, or change anything else about it, etc.), as whatever it's cost to attend is would be dwarfed by my expenses to get there (gas, tolls lodging, etc).
Like Art said, why do we need to revisit this every 6 months? It's pretty simple.
-Dave
Your point about the sheer amount of stuff for sale at York is well taken. Personally, it's too much for my brain. Allentown is about as large a meet as I can handle.
My drive time doesn't seem worth what I come home with. But that's me. Others, I'm sure have their own opinions.
Lastly, referring to Art's comment, apparently York causes alot of anxiety among the model train community. So twice a year we bring up the same questions. But each time we get a myriad of answers. None of which are the right answer, because there is no right answer.
Unless I have missed something, the Eastern Division has never published how many non-members have attended the meet since it has been open, in part, to the "public". This was supposed "save York" as well as "save the hobby".
eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
Eddie,
You have no business telling anyone else how to spend his money.
A fellow may not be able to afford trains if he spends his money supporting the TCA. It may be he has only that much to devote to trains (or any hobby) in a year. But, in any case, $50 worth of trains is more important to him than $50 worth of TCA support. And no trip to York costs only $50. Over and above the direct costs are opportunity costs, for example.
It is not for you (or anyone else) to dictate another's value judgments.
I believe that I was misunderstood here. I was talking about $50. to join TCA, nothing to do with York. I know that it cost a lot of money to go to York. If you come from any distance. I cost me almost $2,000. without buying anything. I am happy just spending the week in York.
Joe Hohmann posted:Unless I have missed something, the Eastern Division has never published how many non-members have attended the meet since it has been open, in part, to the "public". This was supposed "save York" as well as "save the hobby".
I believe you are correct.
Unfortunately the only noticeable change in the parking lot situation has been the mandatory addition of all the handicapped spots right near the Orange hall (this came with the public aspect).
If the public situation really helped in a measurable manner, it should be harder to find a parking spot during the meet now, and I don't think that's been evident for quite some time now.
-Dave
I am from Ca and I have attended four Fall Yorks and 2019 was my last,there are fewer vendors and I understand letting the public in but to me exclusivity of the event diminishes so why should I belong to the TCA.
Mikey
Dave45681 posted:If the public situation really helped in a measurable manner, it should be harder to find a parking spot during the meet now, and I don't think that's been evident for quite some time now.
-Dave
If the "public" had shown-up in great numbers, I'm sure the ED or some "open it to the public" forum members would have informed us.
I agree, my observations is that if York was good on attendance as it should the parking lot in front of Orange should be full, last Fall it as not as it should be. but more to the point, I saw little in the way of purchases. When the Buss from LI loads up, I don't see much purchased, most have their own layouts and don't need much to to compleat their layout. Most are in mid 70's and every year I hear that this person or that person was unable to make the trip due to illiness or death. Those are the stark problems facing the York show.
I joined TCA almost 25 years ago when I first got back into trains and it was a great help in providing contacts, vendors, and how to info. But so has OGR and I've been a subscriber since then, also. I dropped TCA membership several years ago as it no longer seemed relevant with so much info available online. Train shows, like train stores, are pretty much a thing of the past as it's so easy to sit at home and find just about anything you may want on the net.
Quite the EPIC rant started here...how many will attend the YORK TRADE SHOW, so well attended by the general public? RFLMAO. I'm going to the EDTCA MEET! Sorry, but my laughing caused me to add another comment. Again, I suggest joining the TCA, and facilitate the changes you want to see by working from within, not whining and ranting in all directions...
rattler21 posted:I don't need to spend hard earned dollars on ______________.
Fill in the blank. In my case it's tickets to major sporting events, a watch, a "luxury" car. But my wife and I spend a small fortune on travel. Country #22 was checked-off a few weeks ago. The point is not to judge the priorities of others.
palallin posted:eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
Eddie,
You have no business telling anyone else how to spend his money.
A fellow may not be able to afford trains if he spends his money supporting the TCA. It may be he has only that much to devote to trains (or any hobby) in a year. But, in any case, $50 worth of trains is more important to him than $50 worth of TCA support. And no trip to York costs only $50. Over and above the direct costs are opportunity costs, for example.
It is not for you (or anyone else) to dictate another's value judgments.
Pot meet kettle....sheesh. You're doing the same thing with your post.
-Greg
sxe60 posted:I joined TCA almost 25 years ago when I first got back into trains and it was a great help in providing contacts, vendors, and how to info. But so has OGR and I've been a subscriber since then, also. I dropped TCA membership several years ago as it no longer seemed relevant with so much info available online. Train shows, like train stores, are pretty much a thing of the past as it's so easy to sit at home and find just about anything you may want on the net.
The attitude that TCA is just about "getting stuff" is hollow and shortsighted. As the perceived convenience of going online leads people to hole up in our own basements, we lose our humanity. I strongly believe that everyone who enjoys a hobby should care enough about their fellow human beings to join and participate in an organization which promotes that hobby - whether it's TCA, one of the other national groups, or a local club.
If I look at the cost of attending York, I could certainly buy more trains by staying home, but I can't put a price on what I've learned and experienced.
Definition of OGR York Threads =
You can please all the people some of the time.
You can please some of the people all of the time.
But you can't please all the people all the time.
I want free admission. I want access to all halls. I don't want to pay any dues. I want it scheduled at my convenience. I want it private. I want it public. Too many people and trains. Not enough people and trains.
As an aside, after all this gumbeating, I still don't have an answer to the original question. If non-TCAers can attend, I was going to call friends in eastern PA, who have lots of grandkids, and recommend that they attend.
RJR posted:As an aside, after all this gumbeating, I still don't have an answer to the original question. If non-TCAers can attend, I was going to call friends in eastern PA, who have lots of grandkids, and recommend that they attend.
Here is the answer. Yes. More detail below.
"The York Train Show Dealer Halls and Modular Layouts are open to the PUBLIC. Invite your friends to attend the show and see how much fun it is to be a part of the York Experience. While they're here invite them to join the TCA. The hours for the public:
- Friday 9:00 am - 6:30 PM
- Saturday 9:00 am - 3:00 pm
The Dealer Halls include the Orange Hall (York Expo) and the Purple Hall (Heritage). The Pennsylvania Room hosts modular layouts, as well as the Orange and Purple Halls."
It might have been easier to just visit the York meet site here.
George
Thank you, George.
What some of you younger folks may be forgetting is that before the early 1990s, there were no on-line groups like this one. Imagine mailing a question to the editor of a train magazine, and hoping to get an answer published 3 months out. When York was at its prime in the 1980s, there was no eBay. You bought most of your train stuff from a hobby shop or through "for sale" or "want ads" via TCA publications. Train shows were an event. You didn't "talk" to your train friends every day, like we do here. So yes, York and the TCA are not the "big deal" they used to be. But all things considered, I'm surprised they're as popular as they are today.
I admit that I did not read all the above comments because I really don't care why people like or don't like, join or don't join the TCA. I joined in 1970 when I lived in Ann Arbor, attended train meets, met some nice people and actually got to two national conventions over the years but never the Holy Grail of YORK.
I pay my dues every year because I like trains and really like toy trains. I have never made much use of what the TCA has to offer but if my paying my dues helps that organization bring the love of trains to the coming generations of kids then I am willing to pass on a couple more pieces of rolling stock per year to help it happen.
Like a politician suggesting cuts to Social Security, the topic of public attendance at York is the "third rail" of the O-gauge hobby. Or since we already have 3 rails, should it be the "fourth rail"?
Joe Hohmann, very well said!
Greg, You are right. I am out of this thread.
Hi RJR,
in addition to what’s been mentioned, I came this past year as a first time “guest” which is allowed one time with full access to the meet for the full duration ( no restrictions). There seems to be some confusion about this as I understand things have been done differently over the years, however I assure you I had no restrictions to access and was able to attend everything. It was amazing and my 8 year old son and I are coming again in the fall. This time I will join the TCA, so the strategy worked...
Truly an incredible experience. I did not feel I was treated any differently because I was not a member. People selling trains were happy to take my money. People I talked to or asked questions of were happy to share the joy of trains. (Except one old grump who told me and my son it was not a museum - I ended up buying the item from someone else as I guess he figured we weren’t serious because I was with my 7 year old). I am perhaps younger and did not attend the glory days of York. I wish I would have seen the entire Wyndham parking lot covered in tables as that was one of my favorite moments of the experience - being outside and seeing amazing trains.
However, I think it’s very important to note that the internet has changed the way things are bought and sold , not just model trains but for everything! Look at the demise of bricks and mortar retailers in all segments for retail. I believe the hobby is perhaps stronger and in a better place than people looking at York attendance only would believe. Yes, attendance numbers are down but York is competing with the internet. Think about how many trains are being transacted daily on the internet. This did not exist and there no way that buy sell in print media generated the same sales as the ease of a mouse click purchase.
Yes, it would be cheaper for me (in particular coming from western Canada) to buy stuff online than to pay the travel to come. But, for me the experience, far outweighs the cost. I’ll be there in October!
In summary, I hope you come out again and make some new friends to replace some of the ones that have passed. I hope you bring your guests and they have a great time. We certainly did!
See you all in October !!
G
Gerhardt posted:Hi RJR,
in addition to what’s been mentioned, I came this past year as a first time “guest” which is allowed one time with full access to the meet for the full duration ( no restrictions). There seems to be some confusion about this as I understand things have been done differently over the years, however I assure you I had no restrictions to access and was able to attend everything. It was amazing and my 8 year old son and I are coming again in the fall. This time I will join the TCA, so the strategy worked...
Truly an incredible experience. I did not feel I was treated any differently because I was not a member. People selling trains were happy to take my money. People I talked to or asked questions of were happy to share the joy of trains. (Except one old grump who told me and my son it was not a museum - I ended up buying the item from someone else as I guess he figured we weren’t serious because I was with my 7 year old). I am perhaps younger and did not attend the glory days of York. I wish I would have seen the entire Wyndham parking lot covered in tables as that was one of my favorite moments of the experience - being outside and seeing amazing trains.
However, I think it’s very important to note that the internet has changed the way things are bought and sold , not just model trains but for everything! Look at the demise of bricks and mortar retailers in all segments for retail. I believe the hobby is perhaps stronger and in a better place than people looking at York attendance only would believe. Yes, attendance numbers are down but York is competing with the internet. Think about how many trains are being transacted daily on the internet. This did not exist and there no way that buy sell in print media generated the same sales as the ease of a mouse click purchase.
Yes, it would be cheaper for me (in particular coming from western Canada) to buy stuff online than to pay the travel to come. But, for me the experience, far outweighs the cost. I’ll be there in October!
In summary, I hope you come out again and make some new friends to replace some of the ones that have passed. I hope you bring your guests and they have a great time. We certainly did!
See you all in October !!
G
Congrats for planning on joining TCA, and happy that you had a good experience.
I think I may have seen you and your boy - did you park between the grandstand and orange hall, and have Canadian window flags on your (I assume rented) mini-van? (I had seen your pre-York posts, and wanted to catch you and wish you welcome, but you vanished into the crowd too quickly.)
Gerhardt posted:Look at the demise of bricks and mortar retailers in all segments for retail.
And it wasn't just that customers didn't show up. With a camera shop, people would come and have the sales person spend time to help them pick out a camera, then leave to buy it at a "big box" store. Meanwhile, the film developing went to food and drug stores.
I have to laugh that supermarkets are now crying foul that Walmart and Target are selling groceries. It was the supermarkets, years ago, that put "mom and pop" drug stores, flower shops, meat markets, card shops, candy shops, bakeries, etc. out of business.
Mallard4468 Congrats for planning on joining TCA, and happy that you had a good experience.I think I may have seen you and your boy - did you park between the grandstand and orange hall?
Yes we were part of that group! Fantastic group based out of Vancouver that come every October. We had our own vehicle with my dad and son needing some flexibility. We will be back and hope to attend the OGR breakfast. I’ll wear something CN related as always to make it easy to spot us. 😀
Gerhardt, thanks for taking the time to write in such detail. Having taken my children and grandchildren (all in their teens or above, now) to train shows many times, I have experienced the joy and watched the excitement. Your son is indeed lucky that you are able to take him for such a distant destination for trains. I don't know how far west you are, but hopefully if you have the time you will make the trip by car and give him an opportunity to experience the beauty of North America.
George S posted:RJR posted:As an aside, after all this gumbeating, I still don't have an answer to the original question. If non-TCAers can attend, I was going to call friends in eastern PA, who have lots of grandkids, and recommend that they attend.
Here is the answer. Yes. More detail below.
"The York Train Show Dealer Halls and Modular Layouts are open to the PUBLIC. Invite your friends to attend the show and see how much fun it is to be a part of the York Experience. While they're here invite them to join the TCA. The hours for the public:
- Friday 9:00 am - 6:30 PM
- Saturday 9:00 am - 3:00 pm
The Dealer Halls include the Orange Hall (York Expo) and the Purple Hall (Heritage). The Pennsylvania Room hosts modular layouts, as well as the Orange and Purple Halls."
It might have been easier to just visit the York meet site here.
George
And here I just rejoined TCA so I could attend York! Oh well, it's a $50 donation towards what I deem a good cause.
Greg
Greg Laughlin posted:And here I just rejoined TCA so I could attend York! Oh well, it's a $50 donation towards what I deem a good cause.
Greg
Well, as a member, you also get the access to the 4 member halls if you want to check those out too, so there's that.... 
-Dave
Forget it Dave45681....at least 4 repliers have tried explaining it to him and he still doesn't get it....and a few folks put in links to the EDTCA website thereby giving the option for READING AND COMPREHENDING the meet rules himself, or to bother looking at these rules...a noble try, sir!
eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
I can easily afford $50 TCA dues and a $1000 trip to York but there is no need to do either. We you can find everything needed at the Allentown Meets , the Edison Greenberg shows and online at far better prices than at York so what's the point? York is just a large show. Big deal!
Dennis LaGrua posted:eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
I can easily afford $50 TCA dues and a $1000 trip to York but there is no need to do either. We you can find everything needed at the Allentown Meets , the Edison Greenberg shows and online at far better prices than at York so what's the point? York is just a large show. Big deal!
The point is to stop negatively posting about York. You do this BS every York. What's the point? Enough already. STOP!
York has their issues and we all know it.
Ted Bertiger posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
I can easily afford $50 TCA dues and a $1000 trip to York but there is no need to do either. We you can find everything needed at the Allentown Meets , the Edison Greenberg shows and online at far better prices than at York so what's the point? York is just a large show. Big deal!
The point is to stop negatively posting about York. You do this BS every York. What's the point? Enough already. STOP!
York has their issues and we all know it.
I like those posts - they help remind me to avoid becoming bitter and resentful, to try to avoid being critical of others regarding things that are none of my business, and be grateful for people and events that have a positive impact on my life.
I like York mostly to see the new trains engines cars and the people that attend. I often go home not purchasing anything. It is about meeting people and maybe forming a new friendship. It is a pleasant way to spend a couple of days enjoying the hobby whether you a collector or operator.
Mallard4468, what a perfect response.
OK back to the topic of this thread Non-TCA attendance
I read a stat that was posted when the two halls were first opened to the public on Friday and Saturday. IIRC, the number was about 950 which would represent 10% of the total attendance.
