I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
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Why don't you just join TCA.
I joined the TCA a few years ago. The jury is out on whether I will stay with the TCA. I've been to three York meets, one being a large scale show about ten years ago. Personally, I don't see where membership really means that much. That said, I do like reading the newsletter from my local chapter and the glossy printed one from the National. The other periodical that is thicker with all the meeting minutes, member roster and other non-essential information, to me, seems like a waste of postage.
I haven't seen where displaying my badge at any meets, TCA or not, has given me any sort of advantage, whether buying or selling.
Eddie G: I just non-renewed my membership. I can't see spending $100/year for 2 train shows, IF, I am even able to get to York twice a year. I am an operator not a collector. And, quite frankly, my layout is now overcrowded and I need nothing that I could only get at York.
The map of the fairgrounds in the April 2020 brochure shows the orange, purple, and black halls "open to the public". Seems pretty clear to me.
RJR posted:I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Did you expect the Eastern Division to send non-members this information?
RJR posted:Eddie G: I just non-renewed my membership. I can't see spending $100/year for 2 train shows, IF, I am even able to get to York twice a year. I am an operator not a collector. And, quite frankly, my layout is now overcrowded and I need nothing that I could only get at York.
Given all that, why are you interested in going? Sounds like a lot of effort to get there when you don't need anything that you will only find there.
-Dave
RJR, It's not $100. a year, it's $50. a year.
IMO, I believe that the membership is good, vendors appreciate the fact that you are TCA and that you will be responsible and also you get treated better since they know that you are a serious shopper. Your TCA # identifies you and they know who you are. Many times I have been at York, overburdened with purchases and a vendor will hold all of your purchases under his table until the Bus from Long island is available to open to store you items. TCA membership is like membership in to a family. I also find when I ask a question to the vendor they know that I have a serious interest in trains that makes a difference in how I am treated.
I think that some people forget about all the things that the TCA does to promote the hobby. If you read your quarterly you will see the programs directed towards young kids, getting them involved in our hobby and teaching them modeling skills that will carry over into other aspects of there lives. They are the future of our hobby. Then you have the museum and the library which you may not find useful but the people that do couldn’t provide the funds alone, ( think public library ). I find the quarterly particularly valuable to inform me of upcoming auctions, events and friends who have gone to the big railroad in the sky. Don’t forget about the great articles and information provided in that magazine. I think that sometimes we get so wrapped up in ourselves that we forget about all the good things that come out of the dues we pay to a good organization like the TCA. I will now step down from my soapbox
Dan Padova posted:I joined the TCA a few years ago. The jury is out on whether I will stay with the TCA. I've been to three York meets, one being a large scale show about ten years ago. Personally, I don't see where membership really means that much. That said, I do like reading the newsletter from my local chapter and the glossy printed one from the National. The other periodical that is thicker with all the meeting minutes, member roster and other non-essential information, to me, seems like a waste of postage.
I haven't seen where displaying my badge at any meets, TCA or not, has given me any sort of advantage, whether buying or selling.
I also was TCA member for a lot of years and attended many York shows in the late 80’s and early to mid 90’s. After learning and finding MTH and how the Postwar stuff was going nuts with prices the TCA seem to be only interested in catering to the high end Lionel collector and not the operators and I fit somewhere in between. Now in my older years with more time and money also living about 2 hours from York I have recently been given some thought to rejoining the TCA just to attend York. But like someone on this forum said $50 plus the cost of the tickets to attend two shows a year seems to me alot. But I do agree with the thinking about the dealers and manufacturers having a different/more positive attitude towards you when they see the TCA badge. Not sure in Their publication has changed much seems to be a collectors magazine still. Just my opinion FWIW!
"Did you expect the Eastern Division to send non-members this information?" ---- YES! ED should notify as many persons as it can.
ED has to induce as many persons as possible to attend, to assure the show runs in the black. Putting on this show is costly. If the manufacturers, and the various dealers and suppliers who rent space in the Orange Hall experience a reduction in customers, at some point they will consider if the real expense they incur in traveling to the show with their products, and renting space, is justifiable in the light of when revenue they reap. These are business persons, and could care less if a potential customer has a TCA badge. This is unlike the situation in the other halls, which would be of greater interest to collectors. The bottom line is that ED must attract as many persons as possible to the show, regardless of TCA membership, in order to keep operating in the current mode. This is not an easy task, given the unstoppable reduction in interest in model trains. I wish ED well.
Mr. RJR...perhaps you could help the Eastern Division of TCA and provide a mailing list of all the possible non-members and YOU send all the non-members info about OUR York meets? BTW..it isnt a SHOW!
Being a non-member of TCA, any snail mail correspondence about attending York will go directly into the shredder, any email into the trash bin...
Rusty
One way to get around tca. Have Ogr take over York.
Admission could be buy an ogr mag. Or donation. Free parking.
Joe Hohmann posted:RJR posted:I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Did you expect the Eastern Division to send non-members this information?
I'm no longer a member and I received not one, but TWO meet notices.
I joined TCA to help out with the national convention when it was here. The only time I went to York was in connection with that event. It's a haul from here.
I have a much more expensive yacht club membership, but use it almost every day from Memorial Day to Columbus Day.
I let my TCA membership lapse... but now they want us to host the National convention again...
Jon 
Why does everyone have to p1$$ and moan about this every York?
If you don't want to go, stay home.
If you don't want to join the TCA, don't.
If you don't like the way the ED is running things, either volunteer or start your own meet.
Give the rest of us a break.
Thank you Joe Hohman and Art Young. A little research by the O.P. would have saved him from posting his thread. The TCA is mostly volunteers...thank you..that said, please join the TCA!
My dear Red Jimmy, were you not so deeply enmeshed in the dismal depths of sarcastic ignorance, you would realize the sheer impracticality of your suggestion. When I furnish that mailing list to the Eastern District, TCA, they would not have the capability to evaluate that list and determine to whom they should send notices. Nor with their treasury be adequate to compensate me for the printing and postage involved in my sending out those notices.
Nowhere in the registration forms sent out by the Eastern District, is it mentioned that non-TCA members can attend. Would it be beneficial for those forms to also encourage recipients to tell their friends about the show and the fact that you don’t have to be a TCA member to attend? Would it be beneficial for Eastern District to approach the large mail order train firms, such as Trainworld, Just Trains, Mario’s, etc., to ascertain their willingness to include, in their mail order shipments, a sheet of paper advertising the York Show and indicating that you need not be a TCA member to attend?
Oh yes, I suggest you take up with the Eastern District the question of identifying the York get together as a show. The District’s website repeatedly speaks of this as being a “show.”
The Eastern District and the TCA have many problems to face. I do not envy them the task of melding their respective interests when it comes to organizing the York Show.
P.S. Notwithstanding your most recent post, I still have not come across any information as to whether paying non-TCA-members can attend the April Show.
I agree. let the non members in, perhaps they will consider joining TCA. I go to the orange and red building and if I have time silver or other halls. IMO ED does a very good job putting on the show. The only thing I do not like is the quality of the food in the halls. I bring my lunch and eat in the orange hall seats with a cup of coffee and count how much money I have left. Since I come by bus to the show from LI NY I don't have a lot of time to spend other than aquiring needed things or picking up ordered parts. I do not go to other shows , York is it.
Evidently you neither read nor bothered to comprehend all the posts trailing your O.P. Just join the TCA! Again, why would a small budget organization such as our TCA send out the meet info to everyone, whereas they have just enough $$$ to cover the member base? Just join the TCA! Over n out!
The short answer is that ED needs to get more people to attend the Show so that it can glean enough revenue to keep the Show operating at its current high standard, attracting both manufacturers/dealers and attendees. "It Pays to Advertise." To do this, advertising is necessary. How much to advertise is a dilemma facing every business.
To me, the bottom line is that if the TCA is failing, one way or another, it should let York be open to the public. Yes, I believe the TCA was founded on solid principle, but times have changed. Non-members are made to feel like outsiders to the hobby.
Private clubs restrict their membership to those whom they feel share their views. If the TCA wants to stay healthy, it should welcome anyone who is in the hobby and anyone who thinks they might like to be in the hobby to attend York. Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.
Perhaps I am simply feeling a revolutionist mindset against any sort of organized establishment. The good old boy mentality simply does not fly with me.
While I agree that it should be open to the public, my question is what public? Wikipedia says York metro is 108,000. That's little more than a decent sized college town. Is allowing the public going to be that extra incentive that draws people from WAS/PHL/NYC/BOS?
Are there really hordes of people who live in those areas that think "I'd love to drive to York this weekend but I'll be d----d if I'm joining the TCA!" ?
Again, I agree that it should be open to the public but I don't think it would change the trajectory. Dead cat bounce maybe.
I do believe that we must distinguish TCA and the York Show. The Train Collectors Association presumably is a group that was organized to provide train collectors with a vehicle to promote their hobby and to enable the purchase and sale of "collectible" model train items. Presumably the York Show originated as a place where those collectors could come together for the purpose of buying and selling such items among themselves---a swap meet--- and it made sense to limit attendance to those persons who are members of the TCA.
The York Show has morphed beyond that concept, so that in addition to providing that place for collectors to come together, it has become a trade show for the model train industry. As part of that morphing process, the Eastern District has assumed another role, running a Trade Show, which means attracting manufacturers and dealers to display their wares. Manufacturers and dealers are only willing to attend a Trade Show if they can be assured that enough prospective customers will attend that Show to justify the cost of bringing their wares to the Show. It thus becomes incumbent upon the Eastern District to do whatever it can to attract those prospective customers. Limiting attendance to those who join an organization has the effect of limiting the group of prospective customers for those manufacturers and dealers.
I wish both TCA and the Eastern District well as they tried to resolve the dichotomy of TCA needing dues-paying members at the Eastern District needing adequate revenue to continue to operate the "swap meet" and the Trade Show.
I am not saying this to be critical of either TCA or the Eastern District, but merely to point out the problem which they face, which is estimated by the general reduction of interest in trains. Through experience I am very familiar with the additional problems any organization staffed by volunteers does face. In any of my contacts over the years with TCA or the Eastern District, I have always been impressed by the courtesy and efficiency of the volunteers with whom I came into contact and by the excellent manner in which they manage the enormous York Show. There's is a thankless task.
One of the main reasons I've gone to the York Meet is put faces to the names on this forum. Thus, I've met a lot of folks I now consider to be friends and I hope they feel the same way about me. Unfortunately, over the past few years, I've missed several meets due to my wife's illness but I still support TCA and if I get the chance to go even for a few hours, I'm there.
On another note, George Washington is reputed to have said that loved to hear his men complain because then he knew his men were happy. So, applying that logic, some of you folks must be ecstatic. If you don't want to go to York or support the TCA, that's your business. But don't throw rocks at our house and tell us it's feathers.
OK. That's my 1/50th of a dollars worth.
Never been to a York where I didn't have fun. Talking to fellow collectors/operators is great...nice to get out and hang with folks. Never been one for sitting in my basement scrolling through the on-line auction sites. I need the face-to-face interaction.
It'll be interesting to see what the crowd looks like on Friday...wondering how congested it'll be with Thursday cut out of the schedule.
Regardless, it'll be fun, no doubt.
PD
RJR posted:I do believe that we must distinguish TCA and the York Show.
I don't understand why you say "we" if you are not a member. You should be saying "you all " instead. Or at least define the "we".
Most people on this forum realize: the hobby is decreasing; the age demographic of the hobby is quickly rising with many people dying or getting out; the internet has changed the marketplace; each younger generation has less interest in collecting anything or the space for train layouts; and the York meet is shrinking also.
As mentioned before there's 108,000 people living in York and most probably already know about the train show.
And you can always start your own train show, OR move into the eastern division boundaries, join TCA, become a EDTCA officer, and then make train show what you want.
To gain the "public", you need to move the show to Philadelphia to make it closer for the Boston to Washington DC populus.
I think that should be your first agenda item when you get on the EDTCA board.
RJR posted:......................... As part of that morphing process, the Eastern District has assumed another role,................
The TCA has Divisions and Chapters, not Districts.
(I cannot claim to know what the distinction is other than some areas have one and some have the other, but there are no "Districts")
-Dave
I agree with out TCA, we would have nothing, Yes the e bay is helpful but nothing like York, you can discuss the purchase with a live human at York, ever try that on e bay, besides you get to inspect what you buy before purchase and don't have to pay shipping.
Dan Padova posted:....... Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.Perhaps I am simply feeling a revolutionist mindset against any sort of organized establishment. The good old boy mentality simply does not fly with me.
Have you compared the number of tables vs any other show/meet when you decided $23 is too much?
The York meet dwarfs anything with perhaps one or 2 exceptions (Big E in Amherst, one in CA that I forget the name of?).
When all tables are included in the evaluation, it's probably 5-7 times as large as Allentown and/or any Greenberg show that is put on anywhere. The Orange Hall alone is probably most comparable to a really big Greenberg show.
Even at only 2 days, $23 for such a huge amount of items to have a chance of finding for your particular "needs" is a pretty darn good deal, IMHO.
Not sure what your personal drive time has to do with the admission price? I don't consider how long it would take me to get to meets/shows I don't deem worth it, I just don't go. I also don't claim they are not good meets/shows though, I just don't attend as they are too far for me. I wouldn't suggest the Big E should be cheaper(or move, or change anything else about it, etc.), as whatever it's cost to attend is would be dwarfed by my expenses to get there (gas, tolls lodging, etc).
Like Art said, why do we need to revisit this every 6 months? It's pretty simple.
-Dave
RJR posted:I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Really? The York meet notice and website clearly state non-TCA members may attend one time as a guest. If you have a question the appropriate individuals are listed with their contact information.
If you reached out to the appropriate individuals you'd probably have had an answer by now. End rant.
-Greg
Dan Padova posted:To me, the bottom line is that if the TCA is failing, one way or another, it should let York be open to the public.
. . . Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.
Dan, I don't think the TCA is failing. Pulling 10,000 people in from coast to coast twice a year to look at toys is still impressive. And the internet has eliminated a large part of the attendance from the good old days. Used to the railroad magazine ads were the only alternative to seeing a large body of merchandise like York. Now sellers dont need to go cause they sell on line. Buyers just looking for one or two special items are better off shopping the internet. It will never be the same just like crowded malls at xmas time
I also pay the $23.00 except I drive 27 hours one way from south Texas to go to the show. And I take vacation time to go. It's just a matter of how bad you want to go.
Obviously, since this is a TCA event, it is up to them on how it is run and what it is for. As an outsider (not a TCA member) it has been interesting to see the event evolve. Back when it was TCA only, and it was more difficult to join TCA (when they had the "get two members to recommend you" rule), when people argued that it should be open to non members (and I vaguely recall you could get a guest pass to it), the 'insiders' defended it, saying that the exclusivity meant that vendors knew who they were selling to, members didn't have to bother with families with kids crowding the halls (and they defended the policy of needing two members to vouch for you so that the 'riff raff' couldn't just join and rip people off selling through the TCA publications). When people pointed out that opening to the public would publicize the hobby and the TCA to non members, the answer from more than a few seemed to be "Who needs them?" York was basically a member event for the people who belonged to TCA and a lot of people seemed to like that (which is fine, it is their event *shrug*).
When they changed the rules on joining the TCA, people grumbled , but it didn't seem to hurt the hobby from what I can tell, didn't hear much of people joining the TCA and ripping off members.
When York switched to having public days (whenever that was), there was grumbling about it, too. Some said it should not have happened, others said it wasn't enough.
My guess is that the TCA has realized that you cannot run a show on this scale with just TCA members, not enough to generate the kind of traffic that makes something like this viable. And honestly, when I read about York it more and more sounds like the big E or other large train show then a member meet, people focus on buying and selling there more than the member specific stuff. Whether it is better to have the current model where it is part public/part member event, or turn it into a show run by the TCA but allowing full public access, is up to its members. I suspect a full public show would draw more traffic to it and likely would increase revenue, especially if it is promoted as a show, but like anything in life, that is a cost/benefit only they can figure out.
Dave please forgive the typo; Eastern is a Division.
Greg, I was not talking about the once-in-a-lifetime guest appearance, but having the commercial halls open to anyone with the price of admission. Whether or not allowing non-members into the swap meet halls would induce them to join TCA is anyone's guess.
For the record, I do not consider the show admission price to be out-of-line, and have not so stated.
I agree with Trainpop that one of the greater benefits of the York Show is meeting friends. Unfortunately, many of my friends who I socialized with at York, have passed away. Their absence lessens the joy of York.
For the record, I have also never criticized either TCA or Eastern Division. I have proffered some ideas, but I have had enough experience with volunteer organizations to know you don't criticize good faith decisions made by volunteers,
Bigkid, very well put I agree.
For once, I agree with most of the points made above. Just want to add a few of my own...
Re opening the entire meet to the public - it will NEVER happen because of the sales tax situation as it applies to the member halls. Ranting about the tax authorities won't change the situation, and requiring every member with a table to jump through all of the sales tax hoops will drive a critical mass of them away - and these are the folks who bring most of the really neat stuff. (There are plenty of other threads regarding the gory details - search for them if you aren't familiar with the situation.)
We are frequently reminded that York is run by ED, not TCA. I fully appreciate the challenge of finding and organizing volunteers to put on an event of this size, and I applaud ED's efforts. However, York has become critical to the long-term success of TCA, so I think it would be beneficial for all concerned if there was greater collaboration between ED and TCA regarding the details and promotion of the meet.
Disclosures: 30+ year TCA member, not in ED, drive 9+ hours each way, think $20 is a bargain, and would remain a TCA member even if I didn't go to York.
Sorry if this is repetitious, but l belong to TCA, with the hope that my dues will help preserve part of history that has given me life long pleasure. With its museum /HQ in the Amish touristy Lancaster area, maybe the Clampetts will stop in on the way to Beverly Hills, and Maw will say to Paw, "Lookie them old toys...grandpappie's lde's choo choo is in a box under the manure pile in the calf stall, and l was about to make Willy haul it to the holler. Folks done collect old trains...we better bring 'em here.". While l am disappointed in the few new? offerings, l wonder if those that can't afford the annual membership, have any (interest in) to trains? They can't be found in Woolworth's basement, $19.95 a set, anymore. I have no interest in collecting postage stamps, so attend no
Philately meets, but am not on their blogs complaining about the admission charge or the price of an upside down mail plane. I just have no interest or comment, beyond the fact that l have much better photos for Christmas stamps, train stamps, or vintage car stamps.
