Read today that NS is cutting 2,000 jobs and getting rid of some rail lines because of a big drop in profits. The economic news is not too good these days with reduced coal, oil and manufacturing. Autos still seem to be strong. Steel is way down.
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Just reading this. Yet stock price climbed. At the end of the day, the face of NS will probably not look too much different to railfans. I imagine the lines to be spun off are obvious choices...some have already been announced as closed. A shortline can squeeze more life out of these routes with cheaper costs...NS will still get all the freight. It could actually grow business. Looks like NS has some sharp management in place. Retail companies make moves like these all the time...closing/opening/laying off. Can anyone think of possible lines to be shed...I am guessing stuff like the WV secondary. G&W would do well with that one.
If the railroads are an indicator of where the economy is headed, as they often are, then 2016 is going to be an interesting year. I think we're in for a rough ride...
Mike W. posted:Just reading this. Yet stock price climbed. At the end of the day, the face of NS will probably not look too much different to railfans. I imagine the lines to be spun off are obvious choices...some have already been announced as closed. A shortline can squeeze more life out of these routes with cheaper costs...NS will still get all the freight. It could actually grow business. Looks like NS has some sharp management in place. Retail companies make moves like these all the time...closing/opening/laying off. Can anyone think of possible lines to be shed...I am guessing stuff like the WV secondary. G&W would do well with that one.
Rumor on the Ohio Central is that NS is trying to get G&W to purchase the line; however outside of the Ohio Central no one has heard this rumor. I have talked to those in the know, and it's not good for the WV secondary, and the eastern end of the Peavine through southern Ohio. NS and CSX got Conrail to diversify the commodities, but old habits are hard to kick and now they are in the mess that they knew was coming 20+ years ago. NS has problems, but they were kept quite until Hunter Harrison came, and kicked the front door down. Now these problems are causing everyone to look scared. Laying off people where the traffic is actually busy. Louisville Ky is literally turning into a choking point since they don't have crews. NS is going to need to take a long hard look at it self and figure out what they want to get rid of other wise Harrison, and friends are ready to come in, and rip the place to sheards. As much as I like NS as a railfan. NS is a business not to make railfans happy, but to move freight. All the fancy paint schemes and playing with steam locomotives have made Harrison see that they could cut a lot of fat and make Wallstreeters happy. The railroads are in a time of change, and I will tell you that the upcoming storm may make NS look like the CSX of 2010. They've already gotten the customer service right on. As my person in the know said. Today's beauty maybe tomorrow's hag, and if it happens so be it.
Why does NS retain all of that secondary (non-thru) trackage north of Pittsburgh and East of Youngstown? Former NYC and Erie trackage...centered around Sharon PA?
Mike W. posted:Why does NS retain all of that secondary (non-thru) trackage north of Pittsburgh and East of Youngstown? Former NYC and Erie trackage...centered around Sharon PA?
Because there is business there.
To add what Rich said it's also business that is big enough for NS to actually keep it up. Ive seen the map of the lines that are on the chopping block; however NS is willing to allow states and communities buy the line or a short line buy it or lease it. I can list three that have been told to me. Sulada, WV secondary (last 380 & 381 have already ran), the eastern end of the Peavine. Between Cincinnati and Portsmouth, Ohio (Plum Run, to East Portsmouth to be exact.) Cincinnati East Terminal is supposedly wanting to lease out to a quarry near Plum Run. They are going to file for abandonment in mid 2016 (May is what I'm hearing). They have already closed Moraine yard in Dayton Ohio. Several yards down south are in danger as well. The biggest problem is NS has got stuck in its head that Bellevue is the center of the earth, and that d*mn autorouter that was supposed to replace dispatchers. I've seen more stupidity with Autorouter than ever.
And it's closer to the Quaker Steak & Lube...
Jon 
Oh here just got this from the press release. I've already seen the first point in action on the New Castle District with 101,& 110 that are being ran with mid train DPUs.
o Halt or reduce operations in several hump or secondary yards in 2016, reducing manpower needs and locomotive fleet requirements and consolidating traffic on fewer, larger trains.
o Dispose of or downgrade 1,500 miles of secondary lines by 2020, including 1,000 miles in 2016, as traffic is rerouted onto higher-density lines and some parts of the system are more economically operated in collaboration with short-line rail carriers.
Railfan9 poste"playing with steam locomotives"
I was unaware NS was "playing" with any steam engines, but perhaps I missed something?
Railfan9 posted:Mike W. posted:Just reading this. Yet stock price climbed. At the end of the day, the face of NS will probably not look too much different to railfans. I imagine the lines to be spun off are obvious choices...some have already been announced as closed. A shortline can squeeze more life out of these routes with cheaper costs...NS will still get all the freight. It could actually grow business. Looks like NS has some sharp management in place. Retail companies make moves like these all the time...closing/opening/laying off. Can anyone think of possible lines to be shed...I am guessing stuff like the WV secondary. G&W would do well with that one.
Rumor on the Ohio Central is that NS is trying to get G&W to purchase the line; however outside of the Ohio Central no one has heard this rumor. I have talked to those in the know, and it's not good for the WV secondary, and the eastern end of the Peavine through southern Ohio. NS and CSX got Conrail to diversify the commodities, but old habits are hard to kick and now they are in the mess that they knew was coming 20+ years ago. NS has problems, but they were kept quite until Hunter Harrison came, and kicked the front door down. Now these problems are causing everyone to look scared. Laying off people where the traffic is actually busy. Louisville Ky is literally turning into a choking point since they don't have crews. NS is going to need to take a long hard look at it self and figure out what they want to get rid of other wise Harrison, and friends are ready to come in, and rip the place to sheards. As much as I like NS as a railfan. NS is a business not to make railfans happy, but to move freight. All the fancy paint schemes and playing with steam locomotives have made Harrison see that they could cut a lot of fat and make Wallstreeters happy. The railroads are in a time of change, and I will tell you that the upcoming storm may make NS look like the CSX of 2010. They've already gotten the customer service right on. As my person in the know said. Today's beauty maybe tomorrow's hag, and if it happens so be it.
For someone who is not that familiar with the industry and is a beginner, could you or someone else elaborate on what I have bolded. This stuff is interesting to me.
Borden Tunnel posted:Railfan9 poste"playing with steam locomotives"
I was unaware NS was "playing" with any steam engines, but perhaps I missed something?
I was talking about the excursions. A lot of the customers were not happy that they had to have their freight wait while NS ran excursions. (One customer I internship with said, it's Bull that NS plays with Tea Kettles and let's the our freight rot. The customer I internship with is a big shipper on both NS and CSX.) Harrison has brought up that if he was in charge there wouldn't be any steam on NS at all. (Trying to get the customers to support the merger/ takeover.). Again any little thing that NS does that is good is turned into a double edge sword. Most customers are not happy with how NS service record are right now. Considering the free fall it took from 2010 to now is a major concern to the customer. Major one was NS running an excursion down to Danville Ky using a pliot crew, and letting an AK steel train sit because they had run out of rested crews in Cincinnati. Customer goes well why did they run an excursion my freight is more important.
@BessemerSam: In the 90's both when Conrail was being fought over, and being split up one of the reasons the split was agreed to was that both NS & CSX said eastern coal is dying. CSX and NS both said they didnt have enough diversity in commodities that they would be near bankruptcy when eastern coal dropped. So Conrail gets split up, and everything is right in the world, and this little fact of the Conrail spilt disappears/ gets forgotten by NS & CSX. Well come 2016 and now they are scrambling for traffic and are bemoaning we never thought Eastern Coal would go this far south. They both forgotten why the split up Conrail in the first place. That's the short version.
In my experience, both in Virginia and in Pennsylvania, I did not see any freight being delayed or "waiting for a tea kettle" while the excursions were run. While I was on the excursions (611 and 765), both on and off the trains, freight traffic was handled.
I'm sure the webmaster here could testify how much freight was delayed on the R&N and at Steamtown while the 765 ran its trips. Seems to me all rail movements here were adequately handled, and these 765 trips had nothing to do with NS.
I would also question your take on a merger that happened almost 20 years ago, nobody could have foreseen the changes in energy development/usage and anti-pollution laws.
I think you are letting your personal opinions and animosity get in the way of giving facts about this issue.
Isn't the Cincinnati district already closed? The NS line running North out of Cincinnati is a busy principle route inst it?
There is a short line, Cinn East Terminal, that takes care of the Pea Vine out to the Hudamaki Plant. But it is dead from that point, east to Portsmouth.
There is a small Mom and Pop Grain operation at Winchester, and does have a good seasonal business there. They even have their own yard, with several storage tracks, and their own SW 9 switcher to move the cars in, and out for loading.
Then there is Hanson Quarry's just east of Peebles, that could be picked up as a customer, they have a nice rail facility there, but needs up grading.
Those folks, like the grain company, were forced into moving their products by truck.
Like someone said earlier, just for the taking, a good dependable short line can come in, and sell cheaper service, in turn making more jobs thru those communities.
Borden Tunnel posted:In my experience, both in Virginia and in Pennsylvania, I did not see any freight being delayed or "waiting for a tea kettle" while the excursions were run. While I was on the excursions (611 and 765), both on and off the trains, freight traffic was handled.
I'm sure the webmaster here could testify how much freight was delayed on the R&N and at Steamtown while the 765 ran its trips. Seems to me all rail movements here were adequately handled, and these 765 trips had nothing to do with NS.
I would also question your take on a merger that happened almost 20 years ago, nobody could have foreseen the changes in energy development/usage and anti-pollution laws.I think you are letting your personal opinions and animosity get in the way of giving facts about this issue.
765 was not apart of this problem. They are some of the best and most professional crews out there. The problem was the 2 (Rich I've always heard 2 please correct me if I'm wrong) mile bubble around the excursions on NS in which freights had to be stopped. AutoRouter is another big cause of the problem. I don't blame the excursions. It's just you got to see what the customers saw, and what Harrison Hunter is using as weapons.
When I was talking about the merger that both railroads in the 90's got the merger passed by saying coal was dying and that they could use the diversity to get a better footing when coal finally died. They got what they want, and now coal is dying.
@Mike W: The Cincinnati district is the Peavine, and leased to the Cincinnati East Terminal. Look for them to be expanding this year. Past the quarry is the part that will be put up for abandonment. NS into Cincinnati is a funnel and everything either goes north or south. North is to Fort Wayne Ind, and Columbus,Ohio. South is to Danville Ky.
I understand what you all are saying but I'll tell you I don't see N/S cutting back any here. infact there repairing track in-between trains.seriously A train will come thru and they will work about 2 - 3 hrs and then another then again then we have about 5 trains or so run thru the night at least this single line sure gets heavily used all day long right now it's a little less because of repairing but when not I would guess about 10+ trains a day thru here.
Rail Fan, the Pea Vine is physically disconnected at Hwy 32 over pass, between Peebles and Plumb Run ( Hanson Stone).
Is Cinn East Term, going to move stone to Portsmouth???......................
Brandy posted:Rail Fan, the Pea Vine is physically disconnected at Hwy 32 over pass, between Peebles and Plumb Run ( Hanson Stone).
Is Cinn East Term, going to move stone to Portsmouth???......................
That physical disconnection last time I was out that way was they removed a section of rail which if they do get the lease to Plumb Run all they have to do is put a rail back in and then just take it out where the lease ends. That rail removal is to show the lease boundaries. Everything I have been told is Hanson Stone is supposed to be moving to Evans Landscaping in Newtown. Norfolk Southern's Lake Divison wants CETT to lease the Sharonville to Clare yard since NS has only six qualified employees to run that section; however NS's Marketing team doesn't want that because then the CETT could interchange with CSX and I&O. NS's Marketing team also just raised the rates for both Hudamakia Paper, and Winchester Grain.
Hope NS does not take out too much trackage. They might need some as a by-pass in case traffic comes back, or there is a wreck. Or some lines could become the MRL of the east.
What is the New Castle District?
Mike W. posted:What is the New Castle District?
The New Castle District is the name that Norfolk Southern has given the railline between Cincinnati, Ohio, and Fort Wayne, Indiana. 101 & 110 I have mentioned earlier are a Elkhart Indiana, to Chattanooga, Tennessee and vis versa manifest. NS has been testing running 100 cars then a mid train DPU's then 185 cars. Problem is there is only one place to hold these land barges between Fort Wayne, Ind and Hamilton, Ohio. That is at Munice Ind.
"Railfan"9, in your original discourse, you stated that heritage paint schemes and "playing with steam engines" were a contributor to NS's vulnerability to Hunter Harrison's predations. Now you say 765 in particular was not to blame in its activities, and you did not blame the excursions. I am wondering what steam engine (611, 630, 4501?) incurred your ire, you now mention a 2-mile bubble in which opposing freight traffic was stopped to permit excursions to pass safely. On the NS "B" line in VA., freight traffic met the excursion on passing sidings and continued after the excursions' passage.
You also stated "a lot" of customers were upset with the steam trips taking precedence over their freight shipments. Do you have a list of these customers? You gave 1 example of a firm you "internship" with, care to i.d. this firm and the person that stated this? Why haven't we heard about this in the mainstream RR press?
I submit a few dozen excursion trips (over a 5 year period) and heritage paint schemes had/has very little to do with the NS situation, instead the stage was set 20 years ago when NS interfered with the already announced CSX/CR merger-of-equals and grossly overpaid for the share of CR they ultimately got.
I gently suggest all interested to consult "Prelude to Disaster"; Chapter 11 in the 1997 book 'TRIUMPH 1', which discusses in detail the CSX/CR/NS deal, and possible future ramifications.
Future RR history may suggest that CSX/CR might have been a better deal, or should CR just have been left alone?
The last chairman of CR, Dave LeVan (a career accountant), certainly won, becoming a very rich man with a Harley dealership...
Borden Tunnel posted:"Railfan"9, in your original discourse, you stated that heritage paint schemes and "playing with steam engines" were a contributor to NS's vulnerability to Hunter Harrison's predations. Now you say 765 in particular was not to blame in its activities, and you did not blame the excursions. I am wondering what steam engine (611, 630, 4501?) incurred your ire, you now mention a 2-mile bubble in which opposing freight traffic was stopped to permit excursions to pass safely. On the NS "B" line in VA., freight traffic met the excursion on passing sidings and continued after the excursions' passage.
You also stated "a lot" of customers were upset with the steam trips taking precedence over their freight shipments. Do you have a list of these customers? You gave 1 example of a firm you "internship" with, care to i.d. this firm and the person that stated this? Why haven't we heard about this in the mainstream RR press?
I submit a few dozen excursion trips (over a 5 year period) and heritage paint schemes had/has very little to do with the NS situation, instead the stage was set 20 years ago when NS interfered with the already announced CSX/CR merger-of-equals and grossly overpaid for the share of CR they ultimately got.
I gently suggest all interested to consult "Prelude to Disaster"; Chapter 11 in the 1997 book 'TRIUMPH 1', which discusses in detail the CSX/CR/NS deal, and possible future ramifications.
Future RR history may suggest that CSX/CR might have been a better deal, or should CR just have been left alone?
The last chairman of CR, Dave LeVan (a career accountant), certainly won, becoming a very rich man with a Harley dealership...
AK steel, DJJ car leasing are the two biggy I can think of. AK Steel is my internship for transportation logicist. It's the two mile bubble of not moving on double track that cause problems. The dispatchers throwing trains into the sidings just so they have the bubble of stopped trains not moving. Think of it this way what would happen if a car had a steel strap dangling and it met the steam excursion while moving. That bubble was created for insurance safety. It's that while NS was running excursions customers cars were stopped. Customers only see their profits not the railroads profits.
It's not just Steam excursions, and fancy paint schemes. It's a lot deeper that these problems are coming from case in point I had cars that were to go to AK Steel Middletown plant. NS sent the cars from Chattanooga to Bellevue right past the plant then sent the cars back down to Sharonville yard (a yard in a Cincinnati, Ohio) dropped them off and took them to AK steel. This added a day to transit, greatest thing about this the train the cars were on does work at Sharonville. NS way billed the cars via Bellevue, and back to Sharonville before sending it to Middletown. MainStream publications are just now starting to see the light that Hunter and crewed shined onto the deepest part of the NS.
Railfan9 posted:I was talking about the excursions. A lot of the customers were not happy that they had to have their freight wait while NS ran excursions. (One customer I internship with said, it's Bull that NS plays with Tea Kettles and let's the our freight rot.
In my position as Operations Manager for NKP 765, I spoke with every Division and Terminal superintendent after EVERY ONE of our excursions. I spoke with the VP of the NS Transportation Network in Atlanta several times EVERY WEEK during the excursion season. I still talk with him a coupe of times per month because we have become good friends. The feedback I got from these folks and the division-level train masters and road foremen who had to work these trains was that the 765's excursions were, "...not that big a deal."
The 21st Century Steam Program ran its course (it was a five-year program) and it ended. That was the plan from the beginning. We hoped NS might continue the program for a few more years, and if traffic had not declined so badly, they might have done that.
The drop in the NS stock price and the subsequent attempt by CP to carry out a hostile takeover had absolutely NOTHING to do with the 21st Century Steam Program. The entire budget for the steam program was a tiny fraction of 1% of the overall NS budget for the year. It has everything to do with declining traffic levels (affecting ALL railroads right now), a slowing economy and the huge decline in the coal business, down 31% in 2015 alone, with further drops expected.
Divesting of light traffic branch lines is simply good business. It is EXACTLY what NS should be doing right now, as they become a leaner company, better suited to handling these downturns in traffic levels.
Thanks, Rich. I needed that !!
Railfan9 posted:Mike W. posted:What is the New Castle District?
The New Castle District is the name that Norfolk Southern has given the railline between Cincinnati, Ohio, and Fort Wayne, Indiana. 101 & 110 I have mentioned earlier are a Elkhart Indiana, to Chattanooga, Tennessee and vis versa manifest. NS has been testing running 100 cars then a mid train DPU's then 185 cars. Problem is there is only one place to hold these land barges between Fort Wayne, Ind and Hamilton, Ohio. That is at Munice Ind.
All the traffic off the rathole ends up in Cincinnati right? 35 trains or so daily..if not more... And is the NS Youngstown OH line healthy?
A steam special should not upset ops on NS any more than a UP office special running on the Glidden Sub swest of Houston TX.
Will NS obtain any traffic growth when the new Panama Canal locks are finished. Some container ships could go direct to the east coast, be unloaded, and placed onto NS (and CSX trains).
Mike W. posted:Railfan9 posted:Mike W. posted:What is the New Castle District?
The New Castle District is the name that Norfolk Southern has given the railline between Cincinnati, Ohio, and Fort Wayne, Indiana. 101 & 110 I have mentioned earlier are a Elkhart Indiana, to Chattanooga, Tennessee and vis versa manifest. NS has been testing running 100 cars then a mid train DPU's then 185 cars. Problem is there is only one place to hold these land barges between Fort Wayne, Ind and Hamilton, Ohio. That is at Munice Ind.
All the traffic off the rathole ends up in Cincinnati right? 35 trains or so daily..if not more... And is the NS Youngstown OH line healthy?
North bound traffic off the main part of the rathole can either go to Cincinnati, or St. Louis. Trains to St. Louis make a right hand turn at Danville Ky. I wanna say 25ish trains a day plus extras use the First District. The line between Cincinnati Ohio, and Chattanooga, Tennessee are divided up into three districts. First District is the Cincinnati to Danville portion. Second Divison (the Rathole) is the Danville to Harriman Junction (this is the busiest part of the rathole since it gets trains from St. Louis, as well as trains from Cincinnati.) Third District is Harriman Junction to Chattanooga Tennessee.
Borden Tunnel posted:
I submit a few dozen excursion trips (over a 5 year period) and heritage paint schemes had/has very little to do with the NS situation, instead the stage was set 20 years ago when NS interfered with the already announced CSX/CR merger-of-equals and grossly overpaid for the share of CR they ultimately got.
20 years? NS and ATSF wanted CR in the 1980s'. ATSF lost interest, and wanted SP. CR went the route of "Let CR be CR". But it seems NS was looking at CR from that time.
Railfan, the Pea Vine disconnect @ hwy 32, there weren't any rails removed. Just saw cut, spikes removed and the rail swung aside, and a cross tie that was driven through the middle of the road bed about 3' deep. That line is all ribbon Rail, so a minimal repair at that point, thus allowing CETT about a 1/2 mile to Plum Run, for their aggrigate operation................................Brandy!
Mike W. posted:... is the NS Youngstown OH line healthy?
Yep. The NS Youngstown Line is a 40 mph railroad with CTC. NKP 765 ran excursions on it in 2015 between Youngstown and Ashtabula. There are 8-10 through trains per day, plus a local that takes care of the business over in PA.
Some of you are only focusing on bridge traffic on through routes. You have to remember that a lot of railroad business comes from branch lines that are not through routes but are still very important because of the customers to be served on the line.
NS downgraded and stopped running the Peavine route several years ago. They did this for several reasons:
In today's world of railroading, that kind of line is not useful and definitely not a profit center.
I understand it is quite busy 24/7.
Then assuming, some of that freight, then moved, west to St.Louis???
Why was the NS steam program so successful in the 1980's, but now they could only run it a few years? At least they're still running 611 excursions this year. Should I go for a 611 excursion this year with the uncertain future? There's no guarantee of 611 excursions in 2017. If Hunter Harrison takes over NS, there won't even be any 611 excursions, it will have to sit cold at the museum again while an anti steam guy runs NS. Rich, since NS officially ended the program, except for the 611 excursions, does that mean the 765 won't return to PA or Allentown ever again? Unless you go to Steamtown and run on the Delaware Lackawanna, or run on the Reading and Northern out of Jim Thorpe without touching NS track during actual excursions. NS said they will move the 765 wherever it needs to go.
Robert K posted:Why was the NS steam program so successful in the 1980's, but now they could only run it a few years?
What makes you think that it was "successful"? Also, what do you consider "successful"?
At least they're still running 611 excursions this year. Should I go for a 611 excursion this year with the uncertain future? There's no guarantee of 611 excursions in 2017. If Hunter Harrison takes over NS, there won't even be any 611 excursions, it will have to sit cold at the museum again while an anti steam guy runs NS.
There were "Steam Friendly" managers running most of the railroads in those days!
Old Management vs The New Breed!...............The new Breed don't like steam, period!........................
Well, I mean successful is that they ran more trips then and the 611 ran for 12 years (1982-1994) but now the program only runs about four years, well five if you count this year's 611 trips. I guess the weak economy is to blame for the cutback in steam at NS because steam is a luxury that doesn't feed families or make a profit. UP seems to be getting back into steam again with the return of 844 this year I heard. It's nice to ride rare routes behind steam but they cost money to operate and NS has to crew the trains with employees some who would ordinarily have a day off on a weekend. I'm surprised they approved the 611 trips this year with the way they're hurting, but it's only about four weekends worth. from April to June.
Robert K posted:Well, I mean successful is that they ran more trips then and the 611 ran for 12 years (1982-1994)
The N&W/NS generally "misused" their steam "program", as it was ONLY about railfan trips. Rarely, if ever, were either of the two steam locomotives used for shipper specials, government/community relations, employee specials, or board of director meetings. Virtually every single Terminal Manager hated to see either of the two locomotives come to their terminal.
but now the program only runs about four years, well five if you count this year's 611 trips. I guess the weak economy is to blame for the cutback in steam at NS because steam is a luxury that doesn't feed families or make a profit. UP seems to be getting back into steam again with the return of 844 this year I heard.
Don't believe anything on that UP Steam website, as poor 844 isn't even close to returning to service, especially this year.
It's nice to ride rare routes behind steam but they cost money to operate and NS has to crew the trains with employees some who would ordinarily have a day off on a weekend. I'm surprised they approved the 611 trips this year with the way they're hurting, but it's only about four weekends worth. from April to June.
Brandy posted:..The new Breed don't like steam, period!
Where do you folks come up with this stuff?
Absolute, total nonsense.
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