Not Enough Engine ID numbers or TMCC Train/Consist ID numbers

I have the same problem and will follow this

Ed;

I haven't reached the 99 engine limit yet, but the 9 id's for TMCC "trains" is already an issue. I posed that as a question for Marty E to bring up at the York Legacy meeting. Hopefully the good techies at Lionel will be able to address the problem. You may want to ask Marty to expand the question to include the 99 engines limit.

Apples55 posted:

Ed;

I haven't reached the 99 engine limit yet, but the 9 id's for TMCC "trains" is already an issue. I posed that as a question for Marty E to bring up at the York Legacy meeting. Hopefully the good techies at Lionel will be able to address the problem. You may want to ask Marty to expand the question to include the 99 engines limit.

Unfortunately the 99 engine limit has been asked before.  The answer we got was a hardware limitation.  But please add it again and maybe something has changed and it's always a good idea to let the folks at Lionel that 99 isn't cutting it anymore as they keep releasing must have engines.  I will look for the question on the Legacy Users Group thread.

Paul  

What is the" but the 9 id's for TMCC "trains" is already an issue" issue???

rboatertoo posted:

Paul  

 

What is the" but the 9 id's for TMCC "trains" is already an issue" issue???

When using TMCC engines, the most Trains (TR) you can have is 9 and they must use TR1-9. This can be a problem with a ZW-C occupying TR 1-4.  That only leaves 5 (TR) slots for TMCC trains.  I suspect this is definitely a TMCC limitation as the Legacy system hasn't gotten around this limitation for TMCC trains either.

Legacy engines can have up to 99 Trains (TR).

rboatertoo posted:

Paul  

 

What is the" but the 9 id's for TMCC "trains" is already an issue" issue???

Jim;

If you wish to "lashup" (mea culpa... Lionel's term) TMCC engines, you only have a choice of numbers 1-9. Legacy allows up to 99 trains as well as engines if I remember correctly.

EDIT: or, if you prefer, what Marty said just before my reply  

For tmcc the engines have to have id number of 1-9, if they are going to be in a train?  Or all the time?  I ran out of number and I was trying to add some tmcc using the same number as another engine, and I couldn't get them to program.   They are new old stock...  

rboatertoo posted:

For tmcc the engines have to have id number of 1-9, if they are going to be in a train?  Or all the time?  I ran out of number and I was trying to add some tmcc using the same number as another engine, and I couldn't get them to program.   They are new old stock...  

A TMCC engine can have any number between 1-99.  A TMCC Train (TR) can only have an ID of 1-9.

I too have the same number issues, especially since converting older engines to err electronics.

Theses engines in lashups require numbers 1thru 9.

banjoflyer posted:

There is an obvious solution to the 1-9 "train consist" limitation but there is one caveat.

ALL of your train consists can have the same  "train" number assigned to them...the caveat?...you can't operate two of them at the same time...or they'll both do the same things at the same time.

e.g. If you have gazillions of miles of tracks and just as many "trains" that you operate at the same time this will be a problem. But as long as you run only one "consist" with say "TR1" as it's address during any operating session you'll have no problems. Many other "TR1's" can patiently sit on the shelves waiting their turn to have a run on the tracks.

You could compile a paper list of the variety of "TR1" combinations and engine order. If you want to change the components you'd have to reprogram the engines.

Mark

 

Mark,

Nice theory, but only if it were that simple. With a Cab 2 all the info that goes into creating a lash-up is stored in the base. When a train is created you need to tell it the lead, middle, tail engine numbers that make up the consist. so not only would all you train ids be the same every engine would have to have the same id as those in the other consists.

Ed

MartyE posted:

Apples55 posted:

Ed;

I haven't reached the 99 engine limit yet, but the 9 id's for TMCC "trains" is already an issue. I posed that as a question for Marty E to bring up at the York Legacy meeting. Hopefully the good techies at Lionel will be able to address the problem. You may want to ask Marty to expand the question to include the 99 engines limit.

Unfortunately the 99 engine limit has been asked before.  The answer we got was a hardware limitation.  But please add it again and maybe something has changed and it's always a good idea to let the folks at Lionel that 99 isn't cutting it anymore as they keep releasing must have engines.  I will look for the question on the Legacy Users Group thread.

If my computer knowledge is a little rusty please forgive me. But I doubt that it is truly a hardware problem. The engine stores the ID assigned, such as CMOS chip. If they allowed for 1 byte of storage than I believe they could store up to 127 addresses. This reminds me of the Cobol Y2K problem, and taking a shortcut and only allowing for a two digit number

Ed 

I newer Legacy engines, instead of running a "TR" i just use the "99" and it works except for the directional light.

Just remembered we have only 98 engine numbers.  We can't use 99 or everything will take off.....

If the world of HO (DCC) on a much smaller decoder board, can store 4 digit ID's why can't TMCC/Legacy

I have both TMCC and Legacy engines assigned the same number.  When I want to operate the TMCC engine I put in the number and the go to INFO, using the red wheel scroll over to TMCC mode, punch it in and then back to ENG.  I am ready to go and run the engine in the TMCC mode, that is TMCC.  When the same number is used for the Legacy engine do the same but scroll to the Legacy Mode and run it in Legacy.   Works for me.

laz1957 posted:

I have both TMCC and Legacy engines assigned the same number.  When I want to operate the TMCC engine I put in the number and the go to INFO, using the red wheel scroll over to TMCC mode, punch it in and then back to ENG.  I am ready to go and run the engine in the TMCC mode, that is TMCC.  When the same number is used for the Legacy engine do the same but scroll to the Legacy Mode and run it in Legacy.   Works for me.

Well isn't the engine's road, and cab number different for each engine?

cjack posted:

laz1957 posted:

I have both TMCC and Legacy engines assigned the same number.  When I want to operate the TMCC engine I put in the number and the go to INFO, using the red wheel scroll over to TMCC mode, punch it in and then back to ENG.  I am ready to go and run the engine in the TMCC mode, that is TMCC.  When the same number is used for the Legacy engine do the same but scroll to the Legacy Mode and run it in Legacy.   Works for me.

Well isn't the engine's road, and cab number different for each engine?

Yes it is but if you use a cheat sheet and have the TMCC ones recorded you know which engines you are using.  If you put the orange Legacy module in then the numbers come up.  Just gotta use the sheet and do the scroll.  I just did this with a Atlas engine that I purchased last week.  Scolled over to the 100 step Mode and voila.  Works great.  It will not turn on in Legacy mode. 

laz1957 posted:

cjack posted:

laz1957 posted:

I have both TMCC and Legacy engines assigned the same number.  When I want to operate the TMCC engine I put in the number and the go to INFO, using the red wheel scroll over to TMCC mode, punch it in and then back to ENG.  I am ready to go and run the engine in the TMCC mode, that is TMCC.  When the same number is used for the Legacy engine do the same but scroll to the Legacy Mode and run it in Legacy.   Works for me.

Well isn't the engine's road, and cab number different for each engine?

Yes it is but if you use a cheat sheet and have the TMCC ones recorded you know which engines you are using.  If you put the orange Legacy module in then the numbers come up.  Just gotta use the sheet and do the scroll.  I just did this with a Atlas engine that I purchased last week.  Scolled over to the 100 step Mode and voila.  Works great.  It will not turn on in Legacy mode. 

Your way will and does work. But for the money we all pay for our engines you would think that Lionel would/could fix the need to do what you are doing. Lionel wants us to keep buying engines, but has failed to allow the system to grow. With the use of eproms on their decoder boards we could do updates like Broadway Limited did with the QSI chips in the HO world.

you could make a engine module with a group of engines.  then load that module when you want to run that group.

of course this would limit you to the group for a certain day.  unless you made many engine modules.

did you see my question in the "  Welcome to the Legacy Users Group Meeting April 20th, 2018 "?

https://ogrforum.com/...ting-april-20th-2018

You can use 99 as an engine number with TMCC but don't have any sleeping Legacy's on the live track. When I want to run some Legacy engines together I do use 99, they all respond. Not many people run 99 engines at once so I see no problem with having more than one engine programed with the same number.

We have had this problem at the NJHiralers club since TMCC came out. With Legacy You can use the same engine numbers to create Tr.'s. You can take 2 engines say 14 & 15 and program them for TR 50. Take them of the track and program 2 different engines 14 & 15 and program them for TR 52. You can then run TR 50 and TR 52 at the same time with no problems.

Jim D.

Gentlemen,

   I guess I do not own enough Legacy/TMCC engines to run into this problem.  However using LAZ1957's program technique, I doubt I will ever have a problem.

PCRR/Dave

ehkempf posted:

banjoflyer posted:

There is an obvious solution to the 1-9 "train consist" limitation but there is one caveat.

ALL of your train consists can have the same  "train" number assigned to them...the caveat?...you can't operate two of them at the same time...or they'll both do the same things at the same time.

e.g. If you have gazillions of miles of tracks and just as many "trains" that you operate at the same time this will be a problem. But as long as you run only one "consist" with say "TR1" as it's address during any operating session you'll have no problems. Many other "TR1's" can patiently sit on the shelves waiting their turn to have a run on the tracks.

You could compile a paper list of the variety of "TR1" combinations and engine order. If you want to change the components you'd have to reprogram the engines.

Mark

 

Mark,

Nice theory, but only if it were that simple. With a Cab 2 all the info that goes into creating a lash-up is stored in the base. When a train is created you need to tell it the lead, middle, tail engine numbers that make up the consist. so not only would all you train ids be the same every engine would have to have the same id as those in the other consists.

Ed

There's actually an undocumented feature (workaround?) that allows you to us ONE engine number for a lashup (at least for diesels.)  You DO NOT have to assign a train number and multiple engine numbers.  Dave told me about it at Springfield and I've confirmed it works, at least for the Wabash F7 Bluebirds.

1. Put all engines on track in their proper order and direction for the lashup
2. Put all the engines in program mode
3. Program the engine(s) for whatever number you like all at one time
4. Set all the engines to run
5. You're done!   

Now when you select that ENGINE NUMBER all engines respond as if they were a train.  They know what direction they are running in if you're running for instance an E7 ABBA.

Somehow the engines magically? determine that there are multiple on the track and that the trailing A unit has to have its direction switched.  The B units have to out in the right direction.  I do this with them uncoupled and spaced 6 inches apart and then when I address and run them I can see that everything is going in the right direction.

Dave told me this has worked for 5-6 years or so.   The unknown question is why isn't this documented (that I know of.)

Try it!

Chris Lord posted:

There's actually an undocumented feature (workaround?) that allows you to us ONE engine number for a lashup (at least for diesels.)  You DO NOT have to assign a train number and multiple engine numbers.  Dave told me about it at Springfield and I've confirmed it works, at least for the Wabash F7 Bluebirds.

1. Put all engines on track in their proper order and direction for the lashup
2. Put all the engines in program mode
3. Program the engine(s) for whatever number you like all at one time
4. Set all the engines to run
5. You're done!   

Now when you select that ENGINE NUMBER all engines respond as if they were a train.  They know what direction they are running in if you're running for instance an E7 ABBA.

Somehow the engines magically? determine that there are multiple on the track and that the trailing A unit has to have its direction switched.  The B units have to out in the right direction.  I do this with them uncoupled and spaced 6 inches apart and then when I address and run them I can see that everything is going in the right direction.

Dave told me this has worked for 5-6 years or so.   The unknown question is why isn't this documented (that I know of.)

Try it!

For ABAs Lionel has set these engines up to operate under 1 ID.  This will not work for engines that are not part of an ABA, or AA.  So units like F3s and F7s as well as E8s will work this way. 

There are a few ways around the limitation but none are what I would call great.  The TMCC (TR) limitation I doubt will change.  I think this is a by product of older technology.  Whether we can get more IDs for Legacy engines is another subject.  I hope so but was also told this was a hardware issue. 

I'm sure it was a hardware limitation with the original TMCC hardware.  But in order to be able to run those locomotives with the newer Legacy locomotives they had to keep that limitation.  Sure, Lionel could use longer lD numbers, but then you couldn't use your TMCC and Legacy locomotives at the same time with the same command base, at which point people would complain. 

Remember, you can please few of the people all the time, some of the people some of the time, and all the people none of the time.

As for me, I probably won't ever have more than 97 items, so 2-98 will work for me.

Chris Lord posted:

ehkempf posted:

banjoflyer posted:

There is an obvious solution to the 1-9 "train consist" limitation but there is one caveat.

ALL of your train consists can have the same  "train" number assigned to them...the caveat?...you can't operate two of them at the same time...or they'll both do the same things at the same time.

e.g. If you have gazillions of miles of tracks and just as many "trains" that you operate at the same time this will be a problem. But as long as you run only one "consist" with say "TR1" as it's address during any operating session you'll have no problems. Many other "TR1's" can patiently sit on the shelves waiting their turn to have a run on the tracks.

You could compile a paper list of the variety of "TR1" combinations and engine order. If you want to change the components you'd have to reprogram the engines.

Mark

 

Mark,

Nice theory, but only if it were that simple. With a Cab 2 all the info that goes into creating a lash-up is stored in the base. When a train is created you need to tell it the lead, middle, tail engine numbers that make up the consist. so not only would all you train ids be the same every engine would have to have the same id as those in the other consists.

Ed

There's actually an undocumented feature (workaround?) that allows you to us ONE engine number for a lashup (at least for diesels.)  You DO NOT have to assign a train number and multiple engine numbers.  Dave told me about it at Springfield and I've confirmed it works, at least for the Wabash F7 Bluebirds.

1. Put all engines on track in their proper order and direction for the lashup
2. Put all the engines in program mode
3. Program the engine(s) for whatever number you like all at one time
4. Set all the engines to run
5. You're done!   

Now when you select that ENGINE NUMBER all engines respond as if they were a train.  They know what direction they are running in if you're running for instance an E7 ABBA.

Somehow the engines magically? determine that there are multiple on the track and that the trailing A unit has to have its direction switched.  The B units have to out in the right direction.  I do this with them uncoupled and spaced 6 inches apart and then when I address and run them I can see that everything is going in the right direction.

Dave told me this has worked for 5-6 years or so.   The unknown question is why isn't this documented (that I know of.)

Try it!

this works but then all horns sound and crew talk works in all engines.

I like the multiple horns, but I couldn't live with the multiple crew talk.

bigdodgetrain posted:

Chris Lord posted:

ehkempf posted:

banjoflyer posted:

There is an obvious solution to the 1-9 "train consist" limitation but there is one caveat.

ALL of your train consists can have the same  "train" number assigned to them...the caveat?...you can't operate two of them at the same time...or they'll both do the same things at the same time.

e.g. If you have gazillions of miles of tracks and just as many "trains" that you operate at the same time this will be a problem. But as long as you run only one "consist" with say "TR1" as it's address during any operating session you'll have no problems. Many other "TR1's" can patiently sit on the shelves waiting their turn to have a run on the tracks.

You could compile a paper list of the variety of "TR1" combinations and engine order. If you want to change the components you'd have to reprogram the engines.

Mark

 

Mark,

Nice theory, but only if it were that simple. With a Cab 2 all the info that goes into creating a lash-up is stored in the base. When a train is created you need to tell it the lead, middle, tail engine numbers that make up the consist. so not only would all you train ids be the same every engine would have to have the same id as those in the other consists.

Ed

There's actually an undocumented feature (workaround?) that allows you to us ONE engine number for a lashup (at least for diesels.)  You DO NOT have to assign a train number and multiple engine numbers.  Dave told me about it at Springfield and I've confirmed it works, at least for the Wabash F7 Bluebirds.

1. Put all engines on track in their proper order and direction for the lashup
2. Put all the engines in program mode
3. Program the engine(s) for whatever number you like all at one time
4. Set all the engines to run
5. You're done!   

Now when you select that ENGINE NUMBER all engines respond as if they were a train.  They know what direction they are running in if you're running for instance an E7 ABBA.

Somehow the engines magically? determine that there are multiple on the track and that the trailing A unit has to have its direction switched.  The B units have to out in the right direction.  I do this with them uncoupled and spaced 6 inches apart and then when I address and run them I can see that everything is going in the right direction.

Dave told me this has worked for 5-6 years or so.   The unknown question is why isn't this documented (that I know of.)

Try it!

this works but then all horns sound and crew talk works in all engines.

That wasn't my experience with the Wabash E7s.   Only one horn and one crewtalk.   What did you try it with?

I think you need to remember that those E7s were designed to work that way, where other locomotives aren't.

bigdodgetrain posted:

Chris Lord posted:

ehkempf posted:

banjoflyer posted:

There is an obvious solution to the 1-9 "train consist" limitation but there is one caveat.

ALL of your train consists can have the same  "train" number assigned to them...the caveat?...you can't operate two of them at the same time...or they'll both do the same things at the same time.

e.g. If you have gazillions of miles of tracks and just as many "trains" that you operate at the same time this will be a problem. But as long as you run only one "consist" with say "TR1" as it's address during any operating session you'll have no problems. Many other "TR1's" can patiently sit on the shelves waiting their turn to have a run on the tracks.

You could compile a paper list of the variety of "TR1" combinations and engine order. If you want to change the components you'd have to reprogram the engines.

Mark

 

Mark,

Nice theory, but only if it were that simple. With a Cab 2 all the info that goes into creating a lash-up is stored in the base. When a train is created you need to tell it the lead, middle, tail engine numbers that make up the consist. so not only would all you train ids be the same every engine would have to have the same id as those in the other consists.

Ed

There's actually an undocumented feature (workaround?) that allows you to us ONE engine number for a lashup (at least for diesels.)  You DO NOT have to assign a train number and multiple engine numbers.  Dave told me about it at Springfield and I've confirmed it works, at least for the Wabash F7 Bluebirds.

1. Put all engines on track in their proper order and direction for the lashup
2. Put all the engines in program mode
3. Program the engine(s) for whatever number you like all at one time
4. Set all the engines to run
5. You're done!   

Now when you select that ENGINE NUMBER all engines respond as if they were a train.  They know what direction they are running in if you're running for instance an E7 ABBA.

Somehow the engines magically? determine that there are multiple on the track and that the trailing A unit has to have its direction switched.  The B units have to out in the right direction.  I do this with them uncoupled and spaced 6 inches apart and then when I address and run them I can see that everything is going in the right direction.

Dave told me this has worked for 5-6 years or so.   The unknown question is why isn't this documented (that I know of.)

Try it!

this works but then all horns sound and crew talk works in all engines.

The problem is that this solution is in-consistent. For example I have two Santa Fe Alco PA sets, one TMCC 6-14571 and one legacy 6-34568. The TMCC set’s manual has both A units set with their own unique ID’s and a train has to be setup. I have tried using the same engine ID for both and that seems to work. I can fire the rear coupler and the dummy A’s front will fire and the headlight and Mars light will change with direction. The Legacy set on the other hand will not work this way. Both came with their own individual orange modules. When I tried using the same ID for both the rear coupler will not fire and the lights do not reverse as they should. Had to use different ID’s and set up a train with the trailing A in reverse. Bottom line, in my opinion, the system is not very well designed for growth. I know I keep harping on the HO world, but at least in that world the industry came up with standards that work across any manufacturer’s system board. It is sad that in the world of O gauge no such standard has ever been set. Even more disappointing is that Lionel will not release the Legacy specs to ERR so that when we do upgrades we are not stuck staying with TMCC, but instead could upgrade to Legacy.

Ed

I think the take-away is one size really doesn't fit all.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the take-away is one size really doesn't fit all.

I think that the real take away is that user groups seem to have very little influence with Lionel as they should. Lionel should take to heart that without us they will not exist. I just find it hard to understand that their use of technology has not really advanced, yet still allow for backwards compatibility.

From the Lionel Trainmaster Command Control instruction manual that came with the original Cab 1 and Command base.   All engines on the track, programmed with an engine number, facing the way you want them.  Track Power on.  Check all engines in the forward operating mode, front head light on.

Lead engine facing forward.  TR (1 through 9), Eng Number (1 through 99), F (front) Set, a horn should sound.

Middle engine facing forward.  TR (1 through 9), Eng Number (1 through 99),  Set, a horn should sound.

Middle engine facing backward.  TR (1 through 9), Eng Number (1 through 99), DIR,  Set, a horn should sound.

Rear engine facing forward.  TR (1 through 9), Eng Number (1 through 99),  R (rear), Set, a horn should sound.

Rear engine facing backward.  TR (1 through 9), Eng Number (1 through 99),  R (rear), Dir,  Set, a horn should sound.

Check consist (Lash-up) TR (1 through 9)   Consist should respond, all engines moving in the same direction, Front head light on, all other headlights off in Forward.  Reverse, rear headlight comes on all others off, consist moves in reverse.   Also note that the front and rear couplers of the consist operate, all other couplers do not work. 

Break the consist, assign all engines to TR 0

Click on the image for a video.  The multiple speakers slightly out of sinc, produce an interesting beat/pulse effect with the sound.

All engines on powered track with front head light on.

Lead engine GP7  #357  TR7, 57, F, Set.  a horn should sound

First SW9  #233   TR7, 33, Set a horn should sound

Second SW9 #234  TR7, 34, Set a horn should sound 

Third SW9 #1775   TR7, 75, Set a horn should sound

Last SW9 #1776    TR7, 76, R, Dir, Set   a horn should sound.  ( R for rear engine in the consist, Dir, facing backwards)

Hit TR7 on the handheld, the consist should respond.   Only the front and rear couplers, front and read head lights, of the consist will work. 

Break the consist, assign all engines to  TR0      Example:  TR0, 57 Set.    Example:  TR0 33 Set.   

From the late 1990's

Mike CT posted:

All engines on powered track with front head light on.

Lead engine GP7  #357  TR7, 57, F, Set.  a horn should sound

First SW9  #233   TR7, 33, Set a horn should sound

Second SW9 #234  TR7, 34, Set a horn should sound 

Third SW9 #1775   TR7, 75, Set a horn should sound

Last SW9 #1776    TR7, 76, R, Dir, Set   a horn should sound.  ( R for rear engine in the consist, Dir, facing backwards)

Hit TR7 on the handheld, the consist should respond.   Only the front and rear couplers, front and read head lights, of the consist will work. 

Break the consist, assign all engines to  TR0      Example:  TR0, 57 Set.    Example:  TR0 33 Set.   

From the late 1990's

 

Mike,

Thank you for the input, but the point of this post was not so much as how to create a lash-up, but the fact that there were a lack of usable engine ID's, if you have a large collection. Even more important was the lack of TR ID's available if you have many TMCC engines (1-9). To make matters worst is the fact that some of the 1-9 ID's may need to be taken if your need to use a TR number to power up a track or block section.

Ed

It all works for me.

Easy fix - have Lionel come out with a new Legacy system that will accommodate 1000 engines or 10,000 for that matter.  I bet a lot of people here would buy one of these in a NY minute!  Lionel - there is nice two-fold market opportunity here - sell the new Legacy system and this, in turn, encourages train guys to buy more engines!

Harold