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Well this was actually kind of scary not here but for downtrack. Here was NS eastbound intermodal 22K with N&W 8103 trailing 2nd. Long story short, when he was approaching this location in Madison at Route 528, the eastbound signal was yellow even up to when he was going to pass the signal and so when going passed the signal, he was still doing track speed of 60MPH passing the yellow and only has little over 1 mile to stop for red. Well, a freind down track a few miles east in Geneva, told me that there was trackwork being done right near him in Geneva just a few miles east of this location. So in 3 minutes from 60MPH down to complete stop of 0 MPH!!! I really wonder if emergency brakes were applied. One big note, about halfway into the train, I smelled burning brakes from the intermodal well cars.

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Last edited by Wrawroacx
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OGR Webmaster posted:

3 minutes to stop from 60 mph? That’s not a big deal. Sounds like a normal stop to me.

When you use the air, brakes get hot. 

Well Rich, being honest, this was the 2nd style of this I've seen a train do. First was about 6 years ago with a CSX freight with UP with smoking brakes. But for me, I know what your saying not a big deal, but when I haven't seen this done in a while with a stop that quick from 60 to 0 in 3 Mins, for me that is very fast. 

I know your very experienced with trains, I'm just saying this was scary for me as to how quick, that's all. Seeing it on video may not be as impressive, but like when I was here in person, I actually didn't know what would happen down track considering he was going 60 through the yellow still not decelerating as approaching up track.

So I still get what you mean, but being there in person and seeing this the first time in about 6 years of a stop like this, it was nerve racking. 

That works out to a deceleration rate of about 0.33 mphps. I think a train would like to be able to stop in an emergency at a rate of  about 1 mphps.  I am surprised that there was smoke from brake shoes. Most trains use dynamic braking to stop. Years ago I watched trains come down Cajon pass with so much brake shoe smoke you could not see the train after the locomotives went past. But that was in the days of many plain bearing equipped cars, so there was a lot of oil on the wheel plates to burn off. 

Tom Jr., there's definitely more to this, because you're describing "showboating" and NS, of all railroads, is significantly intolerant of deviation from rules or safety practices.  It has a reputation in the industry, as a plantation-style railroad, with a harsh system of discipline.  You break a rule or get an injury on NS, you are -- and you expect to be -- subject to substantial discipline.  So I doubt that this was as plain as it looked.  

The train did stop in about a mile, true, but if we want to be critical of this Engineer's handling, then we must know:

  • What was the indication of the previous signal?  How long had the signal you observed been displaying the same aspect?*
  • Was the yellow aspect you viewed just a one-head signal displaying solid yellow?  A two-head signal displaying yellow over red, or even double yellow?  Perhaps yellow over green?  Is this single main track?
  • What is the grade of the track in the direction the train was moving?  And what were the tons per operative brake on this train?
  • Did you hear any radio conversation during or after the passage of the train?
  • Where was the head end of the train in relation to the next signal when it came to a stop.
  • Is Positive Train Control active at this location?

If this signal location is single-aspect approach signaling (no Advance Approach signal ahead of an Approach signal) then there is a reason for it:  the grade and the length of the block should allow a train running at maximum authorized speed on a green aspect to pass a signal displaying a yellow aspect and still safely stop before passing the next signal, using a service application of the train air brakes.  That's required in FRA signal practices that railroads must adhere to.  The Signal Department calculates this for every block signal location when designing the signal system.

I didn't hear the opening of vent valves during the passage of the train (which would have indicated that an Emergency application had been made) and the train appeared to have made a service stop, probably using dynamic braking as well as the train brakes.  I did not hear any dramatic run-in of slack, which would likely have occurred during an "uh-oh" moment when the Engineer realized he needed to slow down immediately to avoid passing the next signal, presumably displaying stop.

I have to agree with Rich.  It looks to me like an experienced Engineer made a skillful stop in reaction to wayside signal indications.  And some brake shoes are newer and/or cleaner than others in any train, affecting variable brake shoe aroma during the passage  of any train using its air brakes.

And you are hearing this from a guy who has stopped a lot of trains, including a couple of times where I got the train stopped so close to the signal that I had to look upward in order to see the red lens.  Lesson learned.  So I do know the difference in being in control of things and waiting too long to apply the brakes.

I think you can rest assured that this was a controlled stop, made in accordance with NS rules.

Nice video.  I liked it.

 

* The ASPECT is the color displayed by a lighted signal.  The INDICATION is the action required by the ASPECT of a signal being passed by a train, defined on the signal indication pages of the governing book of rules, to which the crew is required to comply.

 

Last edited by Number 90

Tom,
You tend to put a lot of drama in your posts that isn't actually there. This is again one of those times. It is obvious that this wasn't an emergency application of the brakes. You can tell by the way the train finally stopped, not to mention the absence of the brake valve venting. 
If there was a signal near you, then, the next signal was probably two to three miles distant. Plenty of time to stop safely. 
Calm down, tone down, things aren't always what YOU think they are. You haven't witnessed a really fast stop yet. TVOE!

Last edited by Big Jim
Big Jim posted:

Tom,
You tend to put a lot of drama in your posts that isn't actually there. This is again one of those times. It is obvious that this wasn't an emergency application of the brakes. You can tell by the way the train finally stopped, not to mention the absence of the brake valve venting. 
If there was a signal near you, then, the next signal was probably two to three miles distant. Plenty of time to stop safely. 
Calm down, tone down, things aren't always what YOU think they are. You haven't witnessed a really fast stop yet. TVOE!

Tom in a way your like me, if something excites you, ( as me ) you have a tendency to make it a little more dramatic than it actually is. It's just human nature to some of us.

Thanks for the video I thought it was great. 

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