NYC Classics

@NYC Fan posted:

There are 3 NYC steam locomotives that were made by MTH that I would like to see Lionel make with Legacy.

1. Dreyfuss J3a Hudson

2. L4 Mohawks

3 A2a Berkshire

Skip, you have hit the nail on the head. I've seen the Berkshire on Mr. Muffin's videos he has popped on YouTube and Facebook, and had heard him say to someone on the chat what it was and how hard it could be to find.

I saw Eric's Trains had the L4a, with some great interest to me about it. The dang thing with the big tender, man that is something else.

And lastly, the HOLY GRAIL and bane of my pursuit the Dreyfuss Hudson. That engine has eluded me like no other. No matter how many times we thought we'd see one come down the rails from Lionel, it just never seems to get out of the idea roundhouse. I do remember telling Erol, Peter and Don at one of the October York's, that I would buy every Dreyfuss should they produce them(not a weathered one though, not my cup of tea). Hopefully next catalog, we'll get a surprise.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Skip, you have hit the nail on the head. I've seen the Berkshire on Mr. Muffin's videos he has popped on YouTube and Facebook, and had heard him say to someone on the chat what it was and how hard it could be to find.

I saw Eric's Trains had the L4a, with some great interest to me about it. The dang thing with the big tender, man that is something else.

And lastly, the HOLY GRAIL and bane of my pursuit the Dreyfuss Hudson. That engine has eluded me like no other. No matter how many times we thought we'd see one come down the rails from Lionel, it just never seems to get out of the idea roundhouse. I do remember telling Erol, Peter and Don at one of the October York's, that I would buy every Dreyfuss should they produce them(not a weathered one though, not my cup of tea). Hopefully next catalog, we'll get a surprise.

Dave the A-2a Berk is NOT a NYC engine but a P&LE engine that the NYC forced the sister P&LE to order 10 of when they (the P&LE) were going to diesels.  And in actuality only seven of the berks got built when the P&LE cancelled the remaining three.  

In the Fall of 1953 all seven pulled from service.  When they tried to sell them with NO buyers they were placed into open-air storage, without any special prep or protection, in McKees Rocks classification yard.  So their days of service with the P&LE lasted only five years and four months.  Which was the shortest tenures for a locomotive on any NYC  "related" railroad.  When the P&LE's parent NYC needed power in the 1955's the NYC leased all seven of these for use on their Southern District late summer 1955.  All of the A-2a's worked their way to the NYC's Bellefontaine shops.  As an example the 9405 arrived on the NYC Sept. 14, 1955 then taken out of service the 30th, keeping it down until Nov.1st.  Then permanently laid-up Jan. 22,1956.  Another example #9400 was placed in storage after ONLY 20 days availability.By the end of spring 1956 all the A-2a's were taken out of service and stored at the Central's Riverside Yards in Cincinnati.  When the P&LE side lined these there was no care for them.

Here is my P&LE A-2a with its replacement coming up from behind.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

Dave the A-2a Berk is NOT a NYC engine but a P&LE engine that the NYC forced the sister P&LE to order 10 of when they (the P&LE) were going to diesels.  And in actuality only seven of the berks got built when the P&LE cancelled the remaining three.  

In the Fall of 1953 all seven pulled from service.  When they tried to sell them with NO buyers they were placed into open-air storage, without any special prep or protection, in McKees Rocks classification yard.  So their days of service with the P&LE lasted only five years and four months.  Which was the shortest tenures for a locomotive on any NYC  "related" railroad.  

Ron

Were the A-2a's poor performers, or were they just too late prior to dieselization?

@RickO posted:

Were the A-2a's poor performers, or were they just too late prior to dieselization?

Too late to the game, the A2’s were some of the most efficient steam locomotives ever built,…and they performed admirably,…however, as stated above, the Central proper did kinda shove the A2’s onto the P&LE, which although was a separate entity, still had to answer to big brother,….the P&LE was attempting to dieselize when they were “told” they were taking on these A2’s,…

Pat

@RickO posted:

Were the A-2a's poor performers, or were they just too late prior to dieselization?

As mighty as the P&LE wanted to be, ….they were still told people,…🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Many years ago I bought a set of Howard Fogg P&LE prints. From that day I became a fan of the P&LE and had a particular attraction to the 9400 series Berkshires. I really hope Lionel makes use of the MTH tooling and makes a Legacy version of this locomotive.

@NYC Fan posted:

Many years ago I bought a set of Howard Fogg P&LE prints. From that day I became a fan of the P&LE and had a particular attraction to the 9400 series Berkshires. I really hope Lionel makes use of the MTH tooling and makes a Legacy version of this locomotive.

I could see that happening Skip, as the MTH Premier A2’s are still pretty tough to find on the secondary market,….hopefully some of the marketing people at Lionel used their brains to pick out tools for stuff that MTH hit a home run with,…..the A2’s would certainly be on that list,…..along with their L3, and L4 Mohawks…😉

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

Dave the A-2a Berk is NOT a NYC engine but a P&LE engine that the NYC forced the sister P&LE to order 10 of when they (the P&LE) were going to diesels.  And in actuality only seven of the berks got built when the P&LE cancelled the remaining three.  

In the Fall of 1953 all seven pulled from service.  When they tried to sell them with NO buyers they were placed into open-air storage, without any special prep or protection, in McKees Rocks classification yard.  So their days of service with the P&LE lasted only five years and four months.  Which was the shortest tenures for a locomotive on any NYC  "related" railroad.  When the P&LE's parent NYC needed power in the 1955's the NYC leased all seven of these for use on their Southern District late summer 1955.  All of the A-2a's worked their way to the NYC's Bellefontaine shops.  As an example the 9405 arrived on the NYC Sept. 14, 1955 then taken out of service the 30th, keeping it down until Nov.1st.  Then permanently laid-up Jan. 22,1956.  Another example #9400 was placed in storage after ONLY 20 days availability.By the end of spring 1956 all the A-2a's were taken out of service and stored at the Central's Riverside Yards in Cincinnati.  When the P&LE side lined these there was no care for them.

Here is my P&LE A-2a with its replacement coming up from behind.

Ron

I did know that they had been on the P&LE as I believe I read that on the NYC roster I. The web. Question though, were they lettered into the NYC for even a brief period of time, or is the MTH version considered a fantasy paint scheme?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I did know that they had been on the P&LE as I believe I read that on the NYC roster I. The web. Question though, were they lettered into the NYC for even a brief period of time, or is the MTH version considered a fantasy paint scheme?

That’s not a fantasy scheme Dave, the MTH version is quite accurate, and beings they were only transferred to the big four for a blip on the radar, I doubt the Central proper bothered repainting/ relettering anything let alone the A2a’s……remember, by 55 the Central was already on the decline, so things that would be construed as “frivolous spending” would have surely been negated,…..the evidence of the Central’s decline, and the move to dieselize is evident by later and later photos and videos of NYC’s steamers looking more & more derelict as the doom neared for steam….

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I did know that they had been on the P&LE as I believe I read that on the NYC roster I. The web. Question though, were they lettered into the NYC for even a brief period of time, or is the MTH version considered a fantasy paint scheme?

They are/were P&LE engines accurately represented by the MTH model including the two different builders plates.  Pictures in one of my books show the P&LE A-2a's after the Big Four just like they were with the P&LE but in need of attention.

Ron

They are hard to find, I will say that. I got my Berk off the bay after patiently waiting for one to appear, and it finally did. Trainz had one up for bid at a very reasonable starting price, I forget what it was, well I won the bid. You can imagine my surprise when I received the engine and it was NEW! Never opened, and the odometer said 0 miles and 0 time. It really is one of my favorite engines, a smooth runner and love the sounds. A really great engine all around.

I didn't have time last night to look better than just a quick picture search under NYC Berkshire. I found a few pictures, some looked dirty on the tender(picture quality okay), and others seemed a little cleaner with lettering slightly faded. Of the two pictures, one said New York Central(faded on the tender), the other one looked grimy with the lettering obscured and said New York Central System. I knew most older New York Central items just say that, but later stuff had "System" popped on the end(think the HO caboose I have had System on it).

Anyway, my question of the Berkshire's is that was it only the A2's that NYC(P&LE) had? Were there no other Berkshire's that were used? I'm not schooled much on Berkshire's, that's why I have to ask.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Anyway, my question of the Berkshire's is that was it only the A2's that NYC(P&LE) had? Were there no other Berkshire's that were used? I'm not schooled much on Berkshire's, that's why I have to ask.

The Boston & Albany Railroad (a New York Central subsidiary) tested the Lima 2-8-4 demonstrator in March 1925. The A-1a class of 25 Berkshire types (#1400 - #1424) was delivered to the B&A early in 1926. The name "Berkshire" derives from the mountains in Massachusetts through which locomotives operated. They remained on the B&A until replacement by diesels after World War 2.

MELGAR

Most NYC subs changed from New York Central Lines to New York Central System on the tenders around 1935. Likely the A2s were always lettered System.

Pete

@RickO posted:

Were the A-2a's poor performers, or were they just too late prior to dieselization?

Rick sorry for the long delay.  Things have been hectic here with the HVAC crew making improvement to the new system, the Viking range repairman here, mowing the lawn in 90 degree temps with heat index in upper 90's.  But that was better than todays forecast of HI in the low 100's.

The short answer is the P&LE A-2A Berk (and it was a PL&E engine not a NYC)  was very well suited to the uses and needs of the P&LE fro a steam engine.  But the diesels that the P&LE management were going to order (before NYC) stepped in) would have been better both short and long term.

Now most of my knowledge has been gleamed from three great books plus my hometown is the western terminus point of the P&LE.  Kahndog Publications, Inc published a one hundred and thirty page book on the P&LE's A-2A Berks.  Morning Sun Books inc published two volumes on the P&LE.

Now you may know the P&LE's nick name was the "Little Giant."  The P&LE's mainline was under 200 miles.  According to company stats this was 1/10th of one-percent of the nations rails.  But they moved over one percent of the nation's tonnage.  The P&LE connected the number producers of steel in the Pittsburgh area 64 miles northwest to the number two steel producer at its western terminus point in Youngstown,Ohio, my hometown.  The road also ran 58-miles east of Pittsburgh to the Connellsville area.

The P&LE's A-2A Berk was well suited to high tonnage drag with top speed limits of 50 mph.  But right away they had infrastructure problems to over come.  The biggest steam the P&LE had were Mikes.  The bridge over the Youghioheny River at McKeesport was deemed not safe for the pounding of these big berks.  The turntable in East Youngstown was too short to tun the Berks,  So in Youngstown ,until the new table was built, they cut the Berks off and and stored them until at least three were on-hand.  Then crewed up three locos and used the Erie Railroads wye which would also take them over the NYC's Ashtabula-Younsgtown MainLine.  The P&LE had turntables east gof McKeesport that could handle the Berks but until the new bridge was built  they had to pull similar moves as in Youngstown.

But the real nail in their life on the PL&E is that as of September 30,1953 the provisions of the ten current labor agreement with the engineer' union required higher pay for engineers operating large road steam engines as of Oct,1st. over diesel engineers.  Money talks.

The MTH model is great.  I use to get a kick out of running it at local train shop. Especially when a NYC fan came in.  Could hear them say "never though the NYC had any Berk's".  They wanted to know where they could get one.  Finally said it was NOT a NYC engine but a P&LE engine indicated by the fact that it said "New York Central System" not "New York Central" on the Sid eof the tender.  Plus at the top of the coal bin there is a "P&LE."

Ron

Thanks for all the information Ron and everyone else. Always great to go to school of railroad history.

@PRRronbh posted:

Rick sorry for the long delay.  

No apology necessary Ron. I appreciate you taking the time to post the interesting info. Thanks!

Good weekend running trains!!!  Have a great week.

@NYC Fan posted:

Good weekend running trains!!!  Have a great week.

Ah that face, that says it all. 🙂

My rendition of the New York Central's Putnam Division Sedgwick Avenue Steam Servicing Facility in the Bronx, NY.

@NYC Fan posted:

My rendition of the New York Central's Putnam Division Sedgwick Avenue Steam Servicing Facility in the Bronx, NY.

Ten wheelers up the Put-Put!,….where the pace of railroading slowed down just a little bit,…😉

Pat

Heading down to the meat packing district.

Another type of NYC Classic. Lionel's NYC Tug boat #10. A very nice scale model. Although it was originally advertised with exterior illumination it was delivered with only interior illumination. Later models, in other Railroad liveries, like the Pennsy model, had external lights too.

The Dover Strait was out for a spin this past weekend at IRM:

Rusty

....another classic.....and, a new stop on the Harlem Division below Harmon.....Menardsville

Have a great and safe weekend, folks!

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

....another classic.....and, a new stop on the Harlem Division below Harmon.....Menardsville

Have a great and safe weekend, folks!

Peter

Nice run there Peter. I guess they are going to either be heading into the tunnel or dropping off the cars for the steamer or diesel(depending on timeline) to run east or west depending on timetable.

Beer train meets meat train.  Gotta love it.

@coach joe posted:

Beer train meets meat train.  Gotta love it.

Must be a football game tonight in town, so they're preparing.

Great looking harbor scene.  The detail on the viaduct (why not a chicken) is incredible.  The lighthouse is very interesting.  Who made it?

My Lionel Dreyfuss Hudson upgraded to Legacy by Bruk Bannister!!! What a great job he does. Here's a little video.

@NYC Fan posted:

My Lionel Dreyfuss Hudson upgraded to Legacy by Bruk Bannister!!! What a great job he does. Here's a little video.

Wow Skip, nice. What all was done to it? Was it just electronics, or were there other things added in?

If Lionel did get the MTH steam tooling I'm not waiting for them to release any NYC steam.  Bruk has already converted my MTH B&A Hudson.  He's getting my MTH L4 Mohawk soon.   Here some NYC Hudsons for you.

Almost all NYC, almost all Hudsons.  Please excuse the interloper from the Wabash, but it is a Hudson.  The engine on the right is a K-Line Pacific.  All are traditional size to fit my small layout and curves.

Here's a closeup.

Skip, Wow, great video, Beautiful running Dreyfus Hudson, pulling a beautiful matching passenger train with awesome sounds. Bruk is an amazing technician, and someday I may buy a pre-owned TMCC steamer, or an MTH steamer and have it converted to Lionel’s Legacy. By the way, I love looking at pictures of your three rail scale feature rich model railroad. It’s amazing. Happy Railroading Everyone

On Saturday mornings at the club, you can count on Les having a nice NYC locomotive, steam, electric or diesel, MTH or LIONEL, running on the yellow mainline.

The LIONEL F-3 ABA passenger train is Murph's.

(Click on the thumbnails for full size.)

How is this for a classic? Ever since I saw the Water Level Freight Set, I've been trying to get a hold of one, or in my case, the pieces. I got the caboose and the engine first, then it seemed to take forever when the Beacon Oil tank car finally appeared. I was not holding much hope for the hopper or the boxcar, but the last day of York just as I was leaving, notification came over that the Michigan Central Boxcar was out and about.

After 3 hours and change(got delayed out in Strasburg taking pictures and video), I got home and made the purchase. It arrived yesterday and very happy to have almost all the pieces to that great set.

Just delivered from Schenectady, Hudson 5204, a member of the J1b class, is spotted leaving the service facility and making her way to the ready tracks at Harmon,….but not before the hostlers get a good look at the freshly minted machine ….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Just delivered from Schenectady, Hudson 5204, a member of the J1b class, is spotted leaving the service facility and making her way to the ready tracks at Harmon,….but not before the hostlers get a good look at the freshly minted machine ….

Pat

One great looking engine Pat, no wonder the guys are gawking.

@coach joe posted:

Great looking harbor scene.  The detail on the viaduct (why not a chicken) is incredible.  The lighthouse is very interesting.  Who made it?

That lighthouse is Plum Beach Lighthouse in Narragansett Bay north of the Jamestown Verrazzano Bridge in Rhode Island. In the Newport area, a gift shop in the area was selling this battery operated ceramic replica many years ago. Although I didn't have a clear recollection, it reminded me of the "Little Red Lighthouse" under the George Washington Bridge in NYC, and I bought it. Fast forward to my layout planning, I gutted the battery operated lighting fixture and replaced it with a 12v bulb and harness. I was then going to paint it all red, but I liked it too much just the way it was.

@harmonyards posted:

Just delivered from Schenectady, Hudson 5204, a member of the J1b class, is spotted leaving the service facility and making her way to the ready tracks at Harmon,….but not before the hostlers get a good look at the freshly minted machine ….

Pat

Beautiful looking locomotive Pat!!!

I have a question maybe you can answer. Since the Commodore Vanderbilt was shrouded in 1934, did they install classification lights on it for running on the mainline? I've never seen a photo of it with class lights. I've seen the similarly shrouded Mercury Pacific with class lights and was wondering about the Commodore.

Skip