NYC Pacemaker Caboose Ready for Revenue Service

Simon,

This color photo. is of a NYC Pacemaker box car wearing the later black oval Herald and as you can see the later black markings, which replaced the white markings, due to the white markings having faded, but the white is still present.

The whole door, were always painted red and on the side sills, in line with and just below the doors, were red, also.

The early doors were 6' wide, either Superior seven panel, or Youngstown corrugated and the 1954 PS-1 cars had doors that were 8' wide with six panels.

http://gelwood.railfan.net/nyc/nyc175608ajs.jpg

Ralph

Malcolm,

Everything is perfect.

I still think, you have Magical Powers.

Take Care,

Ralph

Here are a good selection of screenshots from the DVD. You can see a few shots of caboose #20112 and the different style doors on a few of the boxcars. As for the window frames on the caboose it's really hard to tell what color they are. Looks to me like they could be all grey but set inside the car body with no trim moldings.

Ralph,

I can't say that I have ever seen a prototype Pacemaker car with 2 color paint on the doors, but I sure have seen a lot of models done that way, Precision Scale and Athearn among them. Makes me wonder, but then if you look at Nick's pictures, some of the shots make it appear that the cars are half and half, even though the doors are red.

Simon

Nick, Check this out. This was early on with a gray cupola too. Malcolm

Okay Malcolm, after watching every millisecond of the caboose footage a hundred times over in slow motion, I've figured out how #20112 appeared on the publicity train. Here's the breakdown from top to bottom:

Cupola - RED

The Roof (and everything on it) - RED

Exhaust Stack - RED

End Doors - SPLIT RED + GREY

Window Frames - This is the tough one but I figured it out. They must have been painted separately from the caboose and installed afterward. They are indeed ALL GREY, but you can see they are recessed into the caboose body with NO TRIM other than the window sill. You can also see the caboose body is still painted consistent with the split colors inside the recessed area. This is why it looks like the window frames were painted grey separately then installed after the caboose was painted. Malcolm, I realize this is a rather fine detail that could be tough to replicate. Let me know what's possible.

End Steps and Platforms: GREY (bottom step has yellow safety trim on the lip)

End Ladders, Railings, and Brake Wheel: You can clearly see which accents are YELLOW, and the rest are BLACK.

I actually found a photo of an HO custom painted caboose that very closely replicates the real one as it appeared on the publicity train. The only difference is lack of yellow safety trim on that bottom step and the technically incorrect grey window trim:

Nick,

 I also searched a bit on the inter-net without success, then I looked through my books, but there are very little b&w and color photos., which are not sharp to make out any definitive colors.

And of course, there has to be, but I can't find it, a color paint scheme used by NYC during the middle, to late 1940's, when these FIVE Pacemaker cabooses were fabricated, by NYC shops.

Confusion exists with an older b&w photo. of NYC 20132, markings in white, with the  cupola, roof, stack, steps and platforms all grey.

Then, the book's color photo., on the cover, of NYC 20132, still in white markings, photographed in Jan. 1950, but showing a red cupola, the stack is not visible, the  roof, vent around the cupola, probably have Black F-1 Car Cement, on them and the steps and platform are darkish with grime and possibly Black F-1 Car Cement.

These, variations along with the photos. being unclear make it difficult to see the actual slight color variations, such as the window frames, in the side of the cabooses.

The second color photo., I posted, shows Cab. NYC 20112, with black markings, red cupola, the vent around the cupola is red, darkish roof, the stack appears red at the top area and grayish toward the bottom, the steps, platforms and cab. in general is grimy and the window frames look a grimy reddish, photographed at a later time.

Your color photo., shows cab. NYC 20112, in white markings and shows the whole cab. in a pristine paint scheme, probably in it's infancy, of the Middle, to late 1940's.

Ralph

Since my project is to recreate that specific inaugural train the brand new scheme is what I need on the model, and the color video footage was basically the best and only resource I know of for deciphering its paint details. I replayed the footage several times in slow motion on a high quality screen and eventually was able to pick out all the info I needed. The details are definitely as described in my last post.

I spoke about this all with Malcolm and everything except the recessed window frames is possible. For practical reasons we will keep those as-is.

Nick,

I'm glad you found out what you need and you will enjoy Malcolm's creation.

Good Luck and enjoy your beautiful crafted model, when you get it.

Take Care,

Ralph

Nick,

I started with the Pennsylvania RR. Merchandise Service box cars, Phases I, II & III color paint schemes and markings.

Then, I saw the NYC Pacemaker box cars and I wanted those cars and while researching the box cars, I see a B&W photo. of the NYC Pacemaker caboose, of which I find out that only five were built in house by the NYC.

Seeing the beautiful work that Malcolm creates, with caboose models made me ask him for a custom built NYC Pacemaker caboose.

And that's how all of this got started.

I would be glad to help you and anyone else who needs answers regarding the NYC and PRR, but some info. is elusive.

Ralph 

I had forgotten one question actually. Do you happen to know which manufacturer's Pacemaker boxcars will match Malcolm's caboose best? This is in terms of paint shade and placement of the color split in relation to the matching boxcars.

Nick,

I have Atlas 'O' Masterline Series, fully detailed, Pacemaker boxes, which have a darker hue of red and a darker hue of grey, and Magician Malcolm matched the colors of my cab. exactly!

I don't know how he did it???!

I also, have Lionel PS-1 Pacemaker boxes, which have a lighter hue of red and a lighter hue of grey, compared to Atlas 'O' and the cab., Malcolm custom built for me.

Here is the PROBLEM!!!!!

The digital DVD color photos. you posted have boxes and cab. which look like the Lionel version, but what was the true color?  Light, as in the video and Lionel, or darker, similar to Atlas 'O' and My cab.!!!!!!

If, you look on the Inter-Net and you will find color photos. of NYC Pacemaker boxes with road #'s 174000, I believe these cars were made by AFC, the the road #'s 175000, these boxes were made in 1954 by PS. 

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...1st-issue-group-ps-1

To me all of the cars in the color photos. look to have the same hues of colors.

So, you will have to get together with Malcolm and figure out, if, you want all light, or all dark colors.  Then, again, do you have any NYC Pacemaker box cars and if, so, settle on that scheme for the color of the cab. you desire, so that all NYC Pacemaker rolling stock equipment will have the same colors.

If, you have NYC Pacemaker box cars, you might have to take photos. and send them to Malcolm.  Don't forget, the more photos. the better, then, again, there is a possibility of trying to SEE the colors and hues of the photo. and the item, photographed, in front of you, to see if all matches up!!!!!!

I'm not dumping the problem in your lap, I'm just trying to give you a leg up, on the situation.

Before I forget, to obtain a large quantity of box cars, it will be almost impossible, as most cars are out of stock at LHS, maybe good ole' E.-Bay, one of our forum members on the "For Sale, or Trade" forum had a few Lionel PS-1 NYC Pacemaker cars with the lighter colors, but they all have the same road #175008 and Red roof, upper Red section has all the markings in White and in the lower Grey section has all the markings in Black.

Atlas 'O,' with the darker colors, probably, will be more difficult to find, I believe, these came out with two, or four road numbers, but also, there are variations in roof colors Red, or Black, as follows:

1-Red roof having ALL White markings;

2-Black roof having All White in Red Section ONLY and Black in Grey Section to the left of the door;

3-Red roof---Red Section with White 'Pacemaker,' a Black & White Herald and Black 

Scroll down to the box, showing the box car, click to enlarge the picture.

You might be able to see the darker colors of the red and grey.  Notice the B&W herald.

All of the three, listed above, Atlas 'O' cars, have these darker red and grey colors.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATLAS-8569-2-NYC-PACEMAKER-BOX-CAR-3-RAIL-174207-NEW-/200988488284?nma=true&si=n9ez3cyYr5bu1cBv0WmGIzx%252FjDI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

You have to read the NYCS link regarding the Pacemaker section to understand their variation of markings on the box cars, throughout the years, when the Pacemaker 'Freight Service' existed, from 1946, to 1959, but some boxes with the Pacemaker colors were still used into the 1970's .  

Good Luck,

Ralph

Nick,

The photos. you posted, it seems that all of the rolling stock has light colors, as the Lionel version.

BUT, on a closer inspection, especially the tight shot of the box car, it shows darker colors, especially of the grey section.

In you DVD, all of the box cars were of the 1946-FIRST group, as I posted in 1(ONE), all having Red roofs and ALL White markings.

Though, I don't know for sure, I believe that Atlas 'O' has the colors correct, then again, it's possible through the years NYC varied the colors in reality, as in the model train world.

Nick, if, you want to speak to me, on anything, go to my personal file, on this forum, to get my E.-Mail address, and if, you want my telephone number. It, is faster via phone.

Ralph 

Ralph, as you have mentioned, and I concur, Atlas seems to have the colors correct.  I have some Poly Scale Pacemaker red and it matches Atlas' perfectly.  Hopefully Atlas will do another run of these cars because, as you know, they are tough to find.

Doug

Atlas did a special run of these for AMHobbies. Did they do another run for other dealers?

Pete

Pete, I'm not aware of anyone other than AM. 

Doug

Doug,

Thank you for mentioning of the Poly Scale Pacemaker red color paint, being correct.

Malcolm created a NYC Pacemaker caboose, with the correct colors, as the Atlas 'O' box cars I have.  How Malcolm did it, I don't know, because he and I never discussed the paint color hues.

I'm glad, because the Atlas 'O' cars are great and yes, because of them being great, most people buy them up and dry up the supply.

I found out that Atlas 'O' Master Line made three groups, of NYC Pacemaker box cars, as I have previously mentioned, in one of my previous posts.  And each group had four different road numbers, also of the three groups, in each group there were two cars with 6' wide Superior, seven panel doors and two cars with 6' wide Youngstown, corrugated doors.

Talk about confusion and going crazy to find and pay for these different cars, of which Atlas 'O' Master Line made a total of twelve of these box cars and Lionel made only one NYC Pacemaker box car, all having the same road number, same colors, which the red and grey were both lighter, than Atlas' version.

I have three Lionel version boxes, with the road numbers of 175000, 175003 and 175008-(8) is the only number Lionel produced.  I could probably buy a few more Lionel and change the last number, but enough, is enough.

Ralph 

I do know of the Atlas O run that would be correct for my publicity train, but obviously 4 road numbers is not enough. However I am still glad to hear they are a perfect match to Malcolm's caboose. They will have to go on the end of the train, that way any other slightly mis-matching cars will blend into the correct ones.

The only other cars that seem like correct candidates for the train are the 12 unique road numbers that MTH put out in 2003. They have the correct paint details and road numbers, the question is if the car itself is the correct make of boxcar. I am not well versed enough in boxcars to know for sure. Item numbers are 20-90098 and 20-90099.

http://www.collector-modeltrai...log_item/MT-0387816/

I've been following the Pacemaker Caboose discussion for a while now and I am interested in the Pacemaker box car options.

If I have this correct there are two Atlas AAR box car options, both made for AM Hobbies.

The 8569 with black lettering was made in two numbers.

And the 8561 with all white lettering was made in 4 numbers.

Was there a 8728 double door Pacemaker box car made?  The photo shows a singe door car with a black roof.

The Lionel option is the 6-17275 from the 2002 Volume 1 catalog.  While likely made in large numbers the only road number available was 175008.  It looks to have an 8 foot wide door.

MTH has made the most Pacemaker Box cars.

There are 12 separate car numbers available from the 20-90098 and 20-90099 PS-1 six car sets.  The 20-93186 operating box car was made in 2 road numbers and is also based on the MTH PS-1 40 footer.

And there are 24 car numbers in the 20-90264, 20-90265, 20-90583 and 20-90584 AAR box car sets.  There are 2 numbers each available from the separate sale 20-93291 and 20-93499. 

MTH also made 10 more individually numbered AAR box cars for the 20-3377-1 and 20-3411-1 Mohawk sets.

All that would make for 52 separate Pacemaker car numbers from MTH.

Has Weaver made their PS-1 in NYC Pacemaker?

Pete, Doug and all,

That I know of, Atlas did two special runs, years ago, for AM Hobbies.

AS, I mention in my previous post.

1-Four different R. numbers and two kinds of doors-Red roofs and all White markings;

2-Four     "       "       "               "                 "   -Black "                 "        "    in the  Red section and Black markings in the grey section;

I don't know if this last four were produced, also, of AM Hobbies:

3-Two different road numbers, two kinds of doors-  Red roofs, White "Pacemaker and Freight Service" in Red section-left of door and a B&W herald in the Red section, right of door, with Black markings in the Grey section, left of door.

From what I know, twelve box cars in all.

Lionel made a PS-1 box car, with only ONE road number 175008, Red roof, White markings in Red section and Black markings in Grey section.

Ralph 

Beautiful!!!!!

Ted you are great, thank you for posting and taking the words right out of my mouth!!!!

A picture is worth a thousand words!

And you are correct that the B&W herald boxes only came with TWO road numbers!!!!

Thank you again,
Ralph

Nick,

Those, MTH cars look good, but I cannot enlarge the picture to get a good look, but I'll tell you, the doors look wrong for the middle, to late 1940's time period, as they should be 6' wide Superior, seven panel doors and 6' wide Youngstown, corrugated doors.

The doors on MTH's cars are about 7' wide Pullman Standard doors, which I believe were either a 1960's, or 1970's product!!!

Ralph

Ted,

 The Atlas 'O' 8728  Black Roofs, came out with four road numbers, as I have three and I am looking for the one, I don't have.

Then, I'm looking for the first four with red roofs and all white marks.

Last, but not least the other one with the b&w herald.

The MTH brown and grey box I never saw, but NYC did have an all brown (Freight Car Color), with the White Pacemaker markings, I believe, it came out in the late 1950's.

There is a photo. of this brown Pacemaker box, with faded white markings.

Ralph

Ralph

Can you help us out with a definitive count on the Atlas Pacemaker cars?

Based on the Atlas web site I have:

8561-1, -2, -3 and -4

8569-1 and -2

The double door car and black roof singe door car remain a mystery to me.

The doors on MTH's cars are about 7' wide Pullman Standard doors, which I believe were either a 1960's, or 1970's product!!!

Pullman introduced their own doors in 1956.

They have the correct paint details and road numbers, the question is if the car itself is the correct make of boxcar. I am not well versed enough in boxcars to know for sure.

Nick

The Atlas/Intermountain and MTH AAR box cars are based on cars built from 1937 to about 1944.  Both models have 4/5 Dreadnought ends which are incorrect for post-WW II built box cars.  All the MTH models have a Viking roof which is not correct for most AAR box cars.  The Atlas/Intermountain car has the roof molded as a separate part and both Viking and Murphy roofs are available.  The Atlas models pictured have Murphy roofs which would be appropriate for 1946 built cars but they should have 4/4 Improved Dreadnought ends as seen on the cars in your vid caps above.

Well shoot, it's looking like there really is no completely correct option out there for my inaugural Pacemaker train project. Guess we're just gonna have to fudge a little with those Atlas and MTH AAR offerings.

Nick

No one makes an O scale box car model that is correct for cars as they were built in 1946.  Take your pick of how incorrect is good enough for you.

Ralph

Atlas originally gave the 1937 AAR singe door box cars 8500 numbers and the double door cars got 8700 numbers.  Are your black roof single door cars numbered 8728?

Yes Ted,

Are you saying that NYC had a double door Pacemaker box car?

I never heard of it!!!!

Thank you for the correct PS door year.

Ralph

My guess is Atlas may have made a typo with that one description. Anyway, thanks for the info Ted. Like I said, it's looking like I'll just have to play a game of "collect em' all" with the Atlas and MTH early scheme AAR offerings. Everything else would be wrong time period entirely.

Ralph

The description of the 8728 on the Atlas web site describes it as a "40' AAR DD Boxcar NYC Pacemaker."  It looks like they gave a single door car a double door product number and then described it incorrectly.  The photo on the web site shows the black roofed single door car.

If I understand correctly there are 10 red and gray Pacemaker car numbers total from Atlas. 

NYC did have an all brown (Freight Car Color), with the White Pacemaker markings, I believe, it came out in the late 1950's.

AM Hobbies had it as the 8582 in two numbers.

Guys, go to the Atlas O website and click on "Special Runs" and go to the AM Hobbies section and scroll down to find all the Pacemaker versions (4) they offered.

The MTH cars are a 1937 AAR car (same as Atlas) and are really nice BUT, if your as anal as me, you will note the "NYC" and road number font in the grey area are not quite correct. Colors are OK.

Doug

Ted,

Right Ted, then only 10, NOT 12, as I had posted, Atlas 'O' Pacemaker box cars.

Now that I remember, I spoke to Bob of AM Hobbies about that way back in May of 2001, about that DD description and he told me that was wrong and it is a single door box car!!!!

Yes, Ted, that's the beautiful FREIGHT CAR COLOR Pacemaker Atlas 'O,' M.L., Item #8582, Road #168658, is one I would like to get.  There is a prototype photo. of it.

I forget what the 'Star' indicates, under the NYCS herald, but it means something.

Ralph

BTW, the oval on the MTH car doesn't look right either.

The oval looks okay but you're right about the fonts. I can live with it. I also just discovered MTH DID make the other door version on the AAR. These are officially what will make up my train. The paint details are generally correct, the boxcar make is generally correct, it'll be a mix of door styles just like the real train, and unique road numbers are plentiful at a grand total of 38.

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...l-pacemaker-18667330

http://www.worthpoint.com/wort...ral-40-aar-401493989

Here are two of the Brown Pacemaker box cars:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-168111.jpg

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-168111.jpghttp://www.canadasouthern.com/...mages/nyc-168658.jpg

Notice which car has the road number of the Atlas model, but a different door?!

The 'STAR' under the NYCS herald denotes that the car is NOT to be sent off line!

Ralph

The Lionel NYC Pacemaker PS-1 version has MOST of the markings correct, EXCEPT the numbers and letter over the herald, which is 848-B, this lot number prototypically should be 646-B, which were new cars built in Feb. 1954, by Pullman Standard, with 7,' or 8' wide doors:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/...mages/nyc-175020.jpg

Why this mistake was made is anyones guess!!

Ralph

Weaver has made Pacemaker PS-1s in at least 4 numbers.

Yeah, Nick the MTH cars are really nice. I had a few and I almost pulled the trigger on two six-car sets a while back but I just couldn't get past the font. Other than that, detail-wise, I would put them right up there with Atlas.  If you have all MTH cars in your train it should look really good.

Doug

Ted,

You are the research King.

How do you find out all of this information?

I wish I had your talent to gather info., as you do.

Sometimes, I search and search and I get nowhere!

Thank you,

Ralph

 Pete, you are correct on your post thank you. 

These, NYC Pacemaker box cars, real and modeled, create a whole mess of confusion!!!!

One has a better chance of solving an old Ellery Queen radio mystery, than to gather info. and try to figure out what, is what, with these cars.

A lot of times the info. on line is not readily available, one has to search high an low for info. and some info. is not listed!

Take Care,

Ralph